Messages

The last replies did sound a lot like everyone doing their catharsis relief.
Maybe we could call it over?
I don't know. Winter is coming and we'll have plenty of time to battle each other.
I was quite pleased with the overall dedication to this thread by many of us.
I'm very busy right now finishing up Blue Moon and playing KingsAge and would settle for some truce.
All the best to everyone!
Miguel

Khris,
I wonder if you would ever be so franc and honest if I'd ask you personal questions.

I wasn't approached by anybody although it is common where I leave to find Catholic persons, my family is "half-Catholic/half-I really don't care". So yes, the teachings of the Bible is something I grew familiar with and there was a point in my life (from 10 to 12 years old) that I was going to church every Sunday.
So, was I a Christian at that age? Hardly, because if I was taken to a Buddhist temple instead there was nothing I could do about it.
When I entered teenage years I was just a normal kid and did begun to grow a taste for alcohol and cannabis. Christianity didn't have anything to do with it, instead I kind of followed the trend at the time and did vote for left wing parties when I reached 18, communism seamed very right to me. Refusing religion and God made perfect sense also as God didn't do a single thing to help my mother not to die. And also, grown up people were nagging around me all the time. The more they nagged the more I party!
At 17 I was earning my own money working at restaurants and bars, easy money and easy jobs because where I live tourists arrive by the thousands every summer.
At 25, 26 I felt that my life wasn't going anywhere and decided to start my own business so I calmed down a lot, got my interest in films and literature back, settled at a nice and cheap villa at the outskirts of town and got a steady job.
I raised money, took my drivers license and some years later I got a loan from a bank that made it possible to open my first business.
I was 29. I was clean and had all the energy to spend on it. I painted and wrote shitty stuff, I knew AGS and played aroun with game making. I played guitar in the toilet and sang in the shower. I was single and happy.
I must confess that my devotion to God grew a lot thanks to reading the classics and studying the renaissance artists. I fell in love with it and started to buy stuff related to Christianity.
It kind of grew with me at the same time I got my life back on tracks.
That year (2004/05) I found my wife that already had 2 kids from a previous marriage.
About 2 years ago my son was born.
There you go. I hope you know have the decency to tell me about your life.

The sacred and the damned:
Can I conclude by your words that if sacred things are good they make people do good things?

You do express yourself better than I do. The thing is you keep the rope very tight all the time. Sometimes it's better to give away some rope if you want to catch a big fish.
The brain is capable of many and great things indeed. One of it is to devise God in all is glory.     

TerranRich, are you claiming blind people are inferior?

Khris, in one hundred years when we mentally post here with some tech thingy while having a crap we might discuss it further.

I knew you would go this way.
Okay, when did I chose to be a Christian? I was about 26 I guess. After doing everything I could to hurt my body and my mind I decided it was time to stop.
The fact I was born in Portugal sure had a big influence on it, yes.
The death of my mother made me hate God if you really want to know.

Sacred things aren't bad, Khris. It's a legacy from our elders and we should respect it, even if we consider them merely tales.

You did mention Harris to me, it wasn't the other way around. I told you what I think of him with no regret. This is the man that writes against everything I believe.

Nacho, I got to go to work. I'll reply when I can. See ya later.

If you think religious people are just people who's brains are f..... up then I can only say that I don't agree.
I function perfectly in my society and am sociable with people that don't agree with me. I consider myself a sane man.
Of course my dreams exist only in my head. You mean that if they are weird then I'm weird too?
Are all your dreams based on logic?

Akatosh, then why didn't Mr.Harris go on with is meditation and left religion alone? He clearly wanted to make a point. In my opinion he just want attention.

Why should we mitigate our feelings? Mr. Harris feels good meditating. Okay, lets jump on him with everything we know against meditation, it just might work, or at least give us some air space or even write some books about it.
Although long lasting searches and studying of something can give us the full known extent of knowledge on the object/subject there's nothing like our intuition and personal experience to formulate a honest view of it.
Let me explain, I might be wrong, but if I didn't feel you are worth of my replies I would not have stick around this far.
Although we have complete differences in our view of the world I feel there is something that makes you worthily of my attention.
And all that through a piece of wire that connects us.

About Budhism, do you know about tales of the Buddha's past lives, of his miraculous powers, of the adventures of the Bodhisattvas; descriptions of pure-lands and hell-realms; libations and prayers are immense. If you think the Bible's got a monopoly on wild myths, go read the Buddhist sutras.
So, if you do take all the miracles and the old testament and the commandments of God maybe you'll find something positive about Catholic Church.
But those tales do connect us to the past and that is to be shared and past to the coming generations.

You may avoid your religious part but it will knock at your door eventually.

Again I say, being a Christian is something I choose not something the Vatican told me to be or follow. Although I have my respect for the Vatican.

The new texts found are being ignored mostly. Everything takes a long time for the Catholic Church to take actions. It's a cultural responsibility they hold and a heavy one indeed.

Khris, I'm sorry if I don't have the full extent of your knowledge regarding Mr.Harris but his main sound-bites are all over the net and I do not have the time to fully study him.
What I found was a man that refused some religions and made some theories about them but in the end decided to put everything to the ridicule and adopted something he re-invented called western Buddhism. Even the Buddhists nation isn't happy with him as he tried to strip naked something that is sacred to them.
Mr.Harris is a modern clown and I think I'll keep hearing about him for a while.
I am so perplexed about your tendency to adore the denying deities of our modern world. Go on and buy his books, there's nothing there that you aren't capable of conceiving or that you can't compile through several authors. He says nothing in my opinion and brings no happiness to the world I live.

Biological/genetic/brain mechanisms are ours and no one else, so if people do invent religions in a way they cannot avoid then it's inherent to them, my friend.
Do you know how and why we dream, Khris? Your explanation is very flat, I'm sorry. I'm just an ignorant but I think there are dozen of different opinions that quite frankly reduce your explanation to something I would tell on a coffee shop conversation after some beers.

SSH, I was beginning to think I was the last survivor here.

TerranRich, if that is so, then why some people are enlightened and are capable of seeing those patterns and others don't?
Aren't we all born equal? 

     

 

At least Mr.Harris could show some sense and realize the controversy of that. I think he's an opportunist. If he only wants to relax there are plenty of other ways. There's some Buddhists on youtube that weren't very happy with him trying to sculpt their religion according to his needs.

I'm really not angry at all. I come here mostly alone regarding this topic and I'm very happy to talk with you guys. Sometimes words may seem harsh but I assure you it's not my state of mind.
Feelings are what distinguish us from another and play a central part in our lives. Most times feeling overrun all logical conceptions we might have so I don't think it's wise to miniaturize those.

Okay, you do have a point. But I wasn't counting with "minor" religions and was and am speaking of the main and vastly spread ones.

Religion is just something inherent to people. You may avoid it but it's still part of your being.

Someone said on this thread that 1/3 of the world population are Catholics. I'm not sure about those numbers but what I do know is that younger generations aren't interested in it. The future remains uncertain but maybe there will be a time when all religion is just a trend or a diversion for an elite.
But as always, things change very slowly...

The Vatican does publicly ignore some gospels. The thing is, most people that decipher those texts are Catholic, so there is a new wave (that I feel I'm a part of it) of Christians that although being faithful to God and Jesus do want to know as much as they can about it.
It's a inner fight and a very interesting one. Just google around and you may find some interesting stuff to throw back at me.

Nacho, I would rather kiss a dead fish!

Khris, a ignorant on what? Religion?
I mean, I've seen people here giving a hard time to a scientist. I am constantly attacked when debating something I do follow and spend a lot of time studying it.
I don't know Khris, but you seam to want the role of god at every thread you're involved.
But it's okay. I'll give that advance on me.
From now on, you'll be explaining your ideas to an ignorant.
So please, go ahead. Make my day!

So, Buddhism can be approached scientifically, you just take out the mumbo-jumbo and that's it!
He picks a religion, declares that that one is the one and fabrics his own view of it, writes some books about it and you, because you BELIEVE him go and buy it!
Sorry Khris, but any value that man could have had was ridiculed by himself. Next, I bet I'll see him on Jay Leno making jokes. 

I'm sorry Khris, but after attacking the Catholic Church he wrote at the end of his latest book that he was embracing western Buddhism!
How serious can he be? That religion is okay, but all others aren't?
This guy just wants your money, dude. He's a big time phoney and a nut case that got relevance after the attacks on the WTC.

Nacho, give me a brake!

Sam Harris is the guy that hates the Bible and the Koran but follows Buddhism, right?
Maybe he's just confused or maybe the drugs did it.

Nacho, I do have something that makes me feel funny about others. Some people that I immediately find suspicious while others I find trustful. Me and more or less everybody else I know.
It's nothing supernatural, really, but because it's something that I can't smell or listen to I called it a 6th sense. And I did threw a bad joke with it.
So, sorry pal. I'm not supernatural.

Lionmonkey, you just contradict others for the sake of it.

Akatosh, please don't rush into conclusions. But yes, faith is something you first feel and then have to study to interpret it.
If you don't want to continue debating with me, very well. I regret it, though.

Emphasis was yours but I can rephrase the same words for you again.
There are more things that bound religions (the ones I've studied) than their differences.

So, humans are hypocrites by nature but can't be religious by nature?
Mr. Pascal put more effort in a single statement he wrote than all of this thread. Don't put yourself to high on the matter.

I already wrote here that the Catholic Church struggles more and more to address new generations. Following this logic it will get to an end.

Yes the Bible is complete. There are people that still study it intensely, either on a desk deciphering archaic texts or digging for artefacts in the middle east. Some new gospels that were published reveal a bit more of the story though. My perception of God and the testaments changed a bit upon reading it. It's still pretty much theories so there isn't much to say.

Now, I'm off to work till about midnight!
 
   

Akatosh,
I guess you assume that I regard evidences as badly as you do. Concerning God and people in general, I kind of trust my 6th sense (maybe I've got to much of those female hormones ).
Hey, I don't want to become to personal about my life as it seams that this topics are widely viewed and although I've got nothing to hide I do like my privacy. Debating those with you and Khris is one thing, but there are many others I simply don't know. All this to tell you that I had a pretty hard life this far, without a mother since I was 8 and having to raise younger brothers with a absent father was a heavy toll on my formation and surely shaped what I am today.
I didn't want to reveal this because I honestly don't need patronizing or petty. Life is like that and I'm here today and support my own family.
Well, If I tell you that through my life (I'm 33) Jesus was the one that kept telling me to stay at the right track and please don't come to me with questions like what was it like? Was he wearing a white robe? Did he speak Portuguese? There's no Special Effects with dynamic surround here. But in my mind I could feel his presence in situations that I clearly pushed the boundaries of social behaviour. If I tell you that you wont believe me or will try to debate it with a psychologist approach, one that I've studied it myself until I reached some conclusions of my own.

Aren't we discussing the Catholic Church? Because I only speak about what I think to have some knowledge of. Although there are "thousands of religions" I firmly believe there is only one God that is interpreted differently across the globe.
The link you supplied is a grain of dust among the testimonies of people that asked for forgiveness when about to die. I will not bother to link you to some sites because you can just do it yourself.
About it's relevancy, well it makes it all different in my opinion. How can you say that when pure atheists do change at the end of their lives (and it is the generality of human beings) is not relevant?

The current pope was a short term political option to the Vatican. Personal friend with John Paul he had all the attributes to sussed him and other options could step in, some with lower conservative mentalities that were refuted by the council.

We already agreed that fundamentalism is wrong (at least we believe so) and I think we should bury our hatchet on that.

If religion is obsolete or not on civilised societies is something we still have to wait my friend. Our civilization is still at the very beginning. If we don't start pushing those red buttons, of course.

As for main characters, both Mary's still have a very important role in the future. Maybe some revelations are bound to shine some light on the matter. It's only a theory of some well respected theologists (misspelled for sure) and I'll wait and see.
-----------------------------------------------------------------   --------------------------------------------------------------------
Khris,
Blaise Pascal, although interesting to follow was a man of faith who tried to bound two different worlds. A very important man, indeed.

It does matter telling people that although they can ignore "the rules" it's wrong to do it. If I tell them so it doesn't make any difference but the existence of God casts a larger shadow on their intentions.

Your wrong about me and my upbringings. Parrots don't think, and I consider myself as intelligent than you. Except coding, that I accept .
Seriously, of course nobody would come with the same reasoning like me without outside influences. Did you receive a computer last Christmas and were completely unaware of its capabilities? You turned it on and just started to code?
The point here is that when a given situation arrives in my life that I think my opinion is helpful to others I do explain myself 90% of the times without quoting God or any Catholic idea. You seam to have assumed that.
We are debating religion beliefs aren't we?
You want to convince me that we live in a reasonable world without God's help, but that is just not the case.

Didn't read it but am aware of it. Promise to read it when I can.
         

You throw the same arguments to me on and on, it's the crusades, inquisition, condoms and I've explained my view on that several times. The thing is that you don't accept my ideas.

You can't compare God to null pointers, or you can but I wont debate that. Imagine a 3 month topic about null pointers.
Listen, I don't want to sound sarcastic or close minded but no matter what, in your life time and mine, God will be around as it is something that us (human beings) have genetically adopted. You will live your life denying God but at the end you'll say something like "Hey, I wasn't that bad compared to (...insert some nasty characters here...) and, If you really exist I want to be on your good side!". It happened before and in critical situations every single one of us do ask for His help. Take a look at war reports of guys that are surrounded with no possible victory situation. Or the final phone calls from the people on the fatal flights on 9/11.
It's just the way we are.

I'm a Christian and agree that the Vatican is failing with the condoms issue.

Why do you expect the Church to do a better job at helping others? I mean, you constantly try to spread the idea that their purposes aren't legit. You constantly attack them. But one thing I'm sure, if you ever need help from them they'll be there for you. I hope you never need it and that you live a long and happy life.

I'm sorry to say that lots of people are jerks and if given the possibility to run over you, they will. And they don't really know of the golden rule or the categoric imperative because they aren't as capable or educated than you. Instead, the simplicity of Jesus message through parables that are easily understood by everyone is a much more efficient method.

Well, the Vatican always swam with the tide if you know what I mean. At that time nobody expected women to emancipate or even to talk about such matters. Yet, the main characters on the Bible are Mary and Mary Magdalene, in my opinion, of course.   

Does a corrupt judge bring down the judicial system of a country?
Celibacy was intended as a mean to address women by men in a society where women had absolutely no rights. At that time the word of a priest was the law to simple people and the Church decided that by forbidding them to have sexual relations was a way for woman to trust them. A women could not be seen with another man in the street other than her husband, and there was no other practical way of spreading the word with the female gender.
It was a political decision.

I clearly said that the Church always remembers people to do good.
And I clearly say now that most people will do whatever they can to accomplish their needs and the lack of Divine Morality will free them to do so because there wont be a punishment (this is a mental state, not physical) but only immediate reward.
I am sorry if this sounds radical, but your views do the same to me.

*of course there is, you've been talking about it for the past 2 months! 

Khris, the Church does reminds men what's good but cannot or will ever determine the fate of more than 400.000 priests in the world. But yes, they should be role models of good behaviour only they're only human like me or you and do fail if they must.
I think that you keep pointing out the fact that there are priest who abuse children (it's the 10th time or more!) because you want me to defend them. I will never defend such a man or woman and if I ever encounter something so horrible I'm not sure I can stop myself from making sure they'll never do it again. Believe me, I'm a father and just the thought of something like that makes me sick.
About the holocaust, did you think I would defend such people that deny it?

About your question, it's always better to do good at any given situation, I just don't think that we are capable of doing it alone.
Khris, I understand your doubts and am happy that you are capable of reasoning and be a good man without any divine help, I just don't think that most people are like you.

Maybe we see the same thing in a different way.

Khris, priests are just common men. And the crusades don't exist any more.
On a ceremony like going to Church, one that you don't have to go (so why do you bother?), the rituals are part of it and represent the life of Jesus on earth.
If one loves Jesus then he'll feel respect when going through that ritual.
We also kiss each other at some point, even people we actually don't know. It makes us feel equal and good about ourselves.
Sorry man, but it's this simple. 

Dual, Nacho only hates me and I'd like that not to change, please!

I LOVE YOU NACHO!

in a very manly way with a 3 days beard and beer bottles next to me...

That's because you can't command those killings. What makes you different from all those ruthless kings and dictators that against the word of God did commit genocide?
Given enough power to any one of us at the forums we can become something quite unexpected.
That's when religion clicks in and reminds us that we can be punished if being bad.
Got my point?

If you want to throw philosophy on me, please follow my thoughts at what I'll try to explain next.
   Imagine a world without religion at all;
   because man is intelligent and capable of deciding everything without a higher presence than him he will come to the fatal and final conclusion that he is going to die.
   The reason we do follow the rules of other intelligent humans is because we refuse with all the strength of our last hair foil that we are not facing death any time soon.
   If I had that notion very close to me then my acts would be pretty much different than our current world.
-----------------at this point you're starting to reply and contest my words, but wait a little longer--------------------------
   I know that I will die and that's it, there is no reward or punishment when I do.
   I am sent to war and kill others because I'm told by others that is the right thing.
   I can fool and even steal from others as long as the rules aren't broken (if I buy your company I can just fire you);
   I can produce other human beings without any love between people ever to exist;
   I can become a ruler of an empire and declare that 30000 people will die tomorrow;
   I basically can refuse all the links you supplied me because I can simply not be seen doing them.

   I firmly think that human rules and laws are easily bended according to one's needs and because there is no divine punishment or rewards man will never achieve those high standards you kindly demonstrated through Wiki. And do you know why? Because they can.
   Because they aren't morally accused and put on stand by God.
   
What man should be? 

If you feel fulfilled then don't worry about it.
Your flaws are pretty much the same as mine.
Nobody will punish you or ever demand that you feel anything else than you already do.

Polish people inside your car? Why?

Akatosh, I think general or public TV (channels you don't pay to receive them) is just nonsense and there is nothing educational about it. Yes, it's not their job to educate me but if I sit too long in front of it I might become even dumber than I am.
Moral relativism is very near the denying of everything if radically abused. I asked you a question first. What should a man be?
Your time now.