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Snarky, please forgive me if I made you believe I do not think you are well read in the matter. It wasn't my intention as I only asked if you could revise what your thoughts on the subject were by introducing material that, in the end, you already knew about.
You are then aware that there is probably a chronology mistake when recounting the events of Exodus, Moses, etc...
By the traditional chronology of Egyptian history the 18th dynasty ruled from about 1550 to 1320 BC. According to Bible chronology the Exodus occurred about 1446 BC. According to this there is no evidence of the 10 plagues, or the destruction of the Egyptian army.
The expression ‘at that time’ is extremely significant. The fact is that there is plenty of evidence for slavery in Egypt, and archaeology findings that can prove the existence of armies fighting at the correct period and space.
From the information revealed in 1 Kings 6:1, the date of the Exodus can be calculated. It says, ‘And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel had come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Ziv, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD’.
Most historians agree that Solomon ascended the throne about 970 BC.4 His 4th year would be 966 BC, and 480 years before that would be about 1446 BC. According to the traditional dates accepted by most archaeologists, that would be during the rule of the 18th dynasty of Egypt.
But there are a number of scholars who claim that a gross error in chronology has been made in calculating the dates of Egyptian history and that they should be reduced by centuries.Such a re-dating could bring the 12th dynasty down to the time of Moses, and there is plenty of circumstantial evidence in that dynasty to support the Biblical records.

Dr Immanuel Velikovsky proposed the same revision before and so did Dr Donoville Courville, but they were written off as irrelevant because they were not archaeologists . Since then many scholars have joined the cause.
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KhrisMUC, he could criticize you because you cannot prove that there is no God.
Even Einstein acknowledged God as part of his life time experiments although he gave up Judaism at the age of 12.
Science gets to a level that it's only mathematical, it really does not interfere with the "real world", did you ever had quantum experiences? You can prove you had but did you?
And science has been proved to be capable of destroying people at a massive rate (Atomic Bomb) that you cannot deny. Although you deny the 10 Plagues, the Deluge and all that was God's destructive energy.
So, in a balance, who did more harm?
The events that can be proven by science like WWII and the likes, or some "unreal events" that by your standards never existed because there is no God?
   

Snarky, again thanks for participating but I would not write about Moses without some research. Please take a look at this:

The Papyrus Ipuwer, Egyptian Version of the Plagues ~
                                                       A New Perspective
By Henry Zecher,

"
In the spring of 1940, Immanuel Velikovsky (...) pondered what kind of natural catastrophe had turned the plain of Sodom and Gomorrah into the lake which Joshua and the Israelites came upon after the Exodus. He pondered the plagues described in the Book of Exodus, whether or not they were real and whether or not there was an Egyptian version of them.
        In search of just such a document, he soon discovered in a reference book the mention of an Egyptian papyrus by a sage named Ipuwer declaring that the Nile River was blood. Locating and studying the English translation of the papyrus by Alan Gardiner, he was struck by the fact that the papyrus seemed to be a description of a great natural disaster. To Velikovsky, however, it appeared to be more than that. He believed he had found an Egyptian version of the plagues described by Moses in the Old Testament Book of Exodus.

"All the waters that were in the river were turned to blood," Moses had written.  "The river is blood," Ipuwer concurred.

Moses wrote that "the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field."  Ipuwer lamented, "Trees are destroyed" and "No fruit nor herbs are found..."

Finally, Moses wrote that "there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt."  As Ipuwer succinctly put it, "The land is not light."

        Verses common to both sources told of Egyptians searching frantically for water, the death (or loss) of fish and grain, massive destruction of trees and crops, plague upon the cattle, a great cry (or groaning) throughout the land, a consuming fire, darkness, and the escape of slaves. Moses did not specifically say that the pharaoh had perished in the Red Sea, but Ipuwer lamented the king's disappearance at the hands of poor men under circumstances that had never happened before.
"
The article this was taken out is quite extent and fascinating and you can check it out yourself googling the main title.
I hope it does ignites some doubt on you about the notion that Moses didn't exist.
See, I do love everything that involves ancient artefacts related to religion and spend some time on it while not making backgrounds for games. I will find some hieroglyphs that showed the Plagues witch I saw on some documentary and send it to you.

KhrisMUC, you're going around in circles with your issue with Misj'. Please do realize he has explained quite well what he thinks science is and religion is. Plus he does not have to keep reminding you that you don't believe in God,Jesus,etc... while you constantly do it to him. He could criticize you because you don't believe, couldn't he?
And you came back to unicorns again. Yet this thread does not discuss unicorns nor would keep it interesting if it did.
If Christians have no evidence, then atheists have temporary evidence because science will constantly destroy its rules and build another.
100 hundred years ago, most well respected scholars in medicine believed in things we can only laugh now. Yet, the arguments we are debating here were the same. Imagine a priest and a doctor sitting at a table having a smoke and a cup of tea. They are friends and they like to debate their opinions. I guess the doctor would use the same arguments you're using now, yet you claim that only Church will not develop.
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On theology, it not only contains a "few" valid subjects like ancient languages (yes, how easy is that?) or biblical/church history (I guess it's on the tip of your fingers, not the work of dedicated geologists and voluntaries around digging sites), but is one of the most difficult fields of study. And surprise, the work isn't finished because new evidences keep popping out of the earth.   

Vince, when you say "(...)What is right and wrong are defined by the people and is constantly changing and evolving with society(...)" I do agree with you but maybe you can acknowledge that Moses did established the principles of it to a universal prism. What made him change is mind and reveal this to his people? Did he actually heard God's voice? We clearly can't scientifically prove it but there are many written documents that prove that he was inspired by God.
By now you know my perspective of this issues is one of a believer.
And of course I have faith in humanity, I just believe that we can't make it on our own.

KhrisMUC, I'm sorry if I missed something you wrote, I can only come to the forum when I've got spare time from the café and sometimes a lot of stuff as been written.
But let me say that I don't reject science at all, it just doesn't make me a big fan of it when I clearly see that the commercial implications get bigger and bigger every day. Rumours that laboratories develop diseases with the purpose of selling the cure make me sad and I try to put in my "conspiracy theory basket" of things to look later.
"(...)Rejecting the concept of a Christian omnipotent, omniscient, loving God and understanding why is extremely simple(...)", your presence in this debate and the energy you put into it clearly prove the opposite, Khris.

Snarky, your presence into this debate is a source of knowledge, thank you.

Akatosh, I didn't understand why you've put so many adjectives homogenized and compared them to my thoughts, the same ones I try to give my best explanation. One line posts on subjects like this are a bit unfair and do seam like politician "sound-bites".
I will quote myself on page 7 to you as I was discussing the same thing with KhrisMUC:
   "When a Christian tells someone something like 'It's God will' he's just reassuring and softening his pain. Psychologists do it with other words but it's the same."
So, please do read the thread, I'm sorry if it's becoming a long one but apparently people are enjoying themselves. I know Natch is having the time of his life.

Natcho, Khris has proven to be capable of providing answers without your acceptance. A 10 year old isn't capable of such a definite notion.

Vince, for a person that likes profs of everything I could link you to experiments done by scientists just to mention the last 25 years of history. If we go back to the beginning of what is called "modern medicine" then some documented events are just to horrible to talk about. I will not go before that because you might say the persons involved were not "scientists".
Man has based his concepts of right and wrong entirely on God(s), kings and emperors have then moulded it at their flavour but the very foundation of modern civilization is based on God commandments. Isn't the American constitution based on it? Did I read it the wrong way? Maybe I don't know how to interpret it? Maybe its written in metaphors?
Oh, I get it, it was written 200 years ago and people were different. Got it.
Nice quote by me, btw. I just hope people will get it!
About your last comment, yes I have to agree with you on that and I do have an answer.
Like everything else in life, the virtue is in the middle term. What is common to all those branches of Church?  Why search among difference? You will surely miss the similarities.
 

Vince, God and Jesus messages that can be taken from the Bible, and I mean the ones even you consider good and have accepted as something you did not need to be told not to, never did harm to anyone.
Do not forget  who told man that killing was wrong.
It wasn't a scientist. In fact, from his point of view, killing is just part of the process.
It wasn't a philosopher because human emotions like jealousy and revenge always took the best of them.
You all take your existence for granted, I am Vince, I am Natcho, I am Miguel and I am this being that is so intelligent that really believes that he thinks for himself, above everything else. I mean, look at me! I believe in what I want, God? Doesn't exists, Science? It proves we are cells fuelled by electricity running through neurons, AKA robots! Philosophy? It's true, all of those theories. Until the next soulless creature that agonizes inside white walls trying to dismantle some others concept!
The bonding element is God, it's what makes you have a soul and be different from others.
About the guys in short-sleeves, did you happen to see if one of the helmets had a AC/DC sticker on it?

KhrisMUC, a theology course isn't something you take around the corner.  And I can see you still did not bother to search more into Christianity. The concept you have from the God that most of you write about and even Jesus is not accurate. I would like you to spend just half-an-hour on it and then we could talk again.
A Christian, a Hindu and a Muslin share many things btw.
How could you understand something that well when you were 10 years old. And haven't you questioned your absolute certainties until now?


 

     

LimpingFish, but at least you must agree that to have full understanding of a religion or any given subject, one must study it. So, if somebody studies it he gains the ability to teach what he has learned.
You are saying that people do not need a book or preaching about religion because Man corrupts the original message when organizing to spread a religion, right? If so, I can agree with the notion, yet Writing about things is the foundation of humanity.
Also, to fully understand the God that created our world you must dig deeper into history and theology.
The surface of the things you've been writing about is but a layer of the true origins.

Vince, I keep forgetting how big your country is. About evangelizing, I think the main concern you might have is that teaching the Bible to young kids without any form of pedagogical knowledge may create wrong interpretations of it. Yes, it can lead to fundamentalism and that is clearly to me, Wrong.
About intelligent design my opinion is not a favourable one and I'd love to explain why.
     

You did write: "...ourselves, if some people insist on teaching things like creationism or intelligent design in schools or fill their children's minds with other falsehoods about our universe."

Well I guess it might be an issue in your country.
Does every school in your country force kids to learn religion?
And I did not say it doesn't matter what you teach kids, you said it.
To me it's very clear that science thoughts about the universe are still in its prime.

Vince, the way you (not you particularly but others that say it too) keep repeating that idea about teaching religion at school is something that I find very strange.
In Portugal, no public school will teach religion. When a kid reaches his 5th year of school his fathers are asked if they want the kid to have Religion & Moral Classes. Those classes do not count for the final grade and they are like I said optional.
Also, the idea that kids are just mindless creatures that believe everything they are told isn't exactly true and more often you will find teens rebelling against any form of rules or commandments no matter what we are talking about.
And, unfortunately, there are hundreds of sites in the internet that are of a fascist nature and do recruit young kids around the web. As for religion forums they can be counted easily and most of them go back to the beginning of the internet.

I've been trying not to mention this but you leave me no option.
The God you have been writing about is actually very much like all of us. It has a name and it's not the name of God.
Confused?
Check out the Gospel of Judas if interested. Through it you will get other relevant links. It's fascinating.

Yes, what IF those experiments did prove that in order to function as we perceive normal, the virtual brain would need a higher presence?
What would be of civilized world?
What if science does get to a point where they've tried everything to exclude God of the equation and find out it is not possible?
It's just a question not futurology.

To Khris:
I think you'd want me to say Nothing from the Bible is to be taken literally, but the thing is that I have faith, I'm a  believer and you don't. Therefore some things I cannot prove to you but you cannot prove them wrong to me because you don't believe in them, so you assume they don't exist. For you there is only the material side of things and everything must be on a equation while for me there is the God factor that holds everything together and gives it meaning.

Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists do follow the same God but in different ways. Actually they too have the equivalent to my Gospels and to study them (both the Christian Gospels or, say, the Cabala) and truly understand their meaning takes a lot of time. People from all religions dedicate their lives doing it. New Christians like me (New has a capital letter because it is the beginning of the sentence, it's not a new cult, sorry) gather and exchange knowledge and even if some parts are quite difficult to interpret for me or for them it is clear that the word that moves us to do it is love.
My step son shares his class with a Muslim kid. The funny thing is that the other kids get curious about his culture and habits but never went against it or mock him. His colour though is another question. Looks like modern society still has a long way to go according to the most primary impulses.
I guess both science and religion can play a part on spreading tolerance, not difference.
Back to your question, would it be difficult for me to convince a young Muslim?
If he lives with his parents and I am in Baghdad then yes, of course.
If I'd find the same kid some years later in college, then I could have a chance.
By the way, if you can understand and put yourself in the role of a young Muslim and imagine what his feelings/thoughts might be, then why is it so difficult to you to go back some millennium before and imagine what an Hebrew thought when he got to know God.

Spending all eternity at God's side is not my destiny, I do not deserve it. But I can let myself die in peace because I hope to be even with the world.
I said it before, KhrisMUC, Heaven is a state of mind. It's making peace with God and Jesus. If I do find all God's grace in a beautiful garden after my life here then the joy will be tremendous.

As for your last questions I believe that by now it's pretty clear how strong religion is.
Why? Well, consider that it's the organization with the poorest propaganda and advertisement ever. Consider that official statements coming out of the Vatican are at least 3 decades later than what the world has evolved to stablish as acceptable and common. Consider that religion members lack glamour and cool. Consider that religion has to keep up with multi billion science projects that consistently deny what religion cannot prove.

"Forgive them father because they don't know what they're doing."

SSH: exactly  
           

KhrisMUC,
I understand your questions and will try to answer them:

-The Bible was written by several persons during a long period of time, and in most cases by people with no literary skills. I do believe God spoke to them by spiritual ways and do believe that they did see the snake. God revealed Himself to show mankind they were sinners and a way of living according to what He wants.
-I will feel very sad if I find that I have such a disease. Although my faith would surely help me face the adversity.
-It's purely a way of telling people that they should accept God, really. Fear was used then as a way of obedience. You can say it's wrong but maybe God thought there wasn't other way.
-I find that "rule" just because it cannot be 'read' like that. You cannot take the Bible literally, by now you should have accepted that.
-I would have heard of Him, of course. And who in its right mind can not like Jesus?

Conspiracy theories do not interest me. Maybe the Man on the Moon thing does but not that much, I've seen some YouTube Videos.
But, I'll take a look out of respect for you and tell you about it.  
A.Huxley did it before and it didn't stick.

Hahaha, I sincerely hope there's a disguised smile just before his next post Mr Matti.
Well thanks for being tolerant, it's very precious this days, let me tell you that all true Christians question themselves a lot. I myself had serious doubts when I was a teenager because it's all about human nature to do that. Even when my life wasn't going anywhere and I couldn't see any future I had no time to God.
So, I guess it is a personal choice and a well thought one.

KhrisMUC, I see you get embarrassed somehow when my religion forgives and accepts who you are. Your rage is a sign of admiration more than anything. I feel that the little seed hasn't died on you yet.

RickJ, probably the only person I let down in this forums. Back in 2003 I told him I'd help on remaking the AGS Demo-Game. Even if I had no skills whatsoever (why do I think I've got them now?) he told me that every little bit of work I could do would be appreciated. Well, the following year my life changed and so did I concerning making games. So I kept quiet for a long time and when I came on the forums as a guest I never did logged in and apologize to RickJ.
Well, I guess I'll do it now.
I wish I had his clear mind and write posts like he just did.
The interview is fascinating btw.
I can't help myself but many things I said here are there on the interview.
Can you non-believers listen to it, it's a wise man first of all, and judge him after the interview, please.
 

Me too, it has a cinematic feel to it. Good luck

Wow!
Summer does mean religion after all.
And God is not dead. Sorry Nietzsche.
Well, I've got a lot to do at my café because it is August and my town is packed with tourist so I really cannot answer you all. My exceptions will be of course Mr.Natcho  
and KhrisMUC who does not know that Heaven has a piece of land with his name on it.

Seriously, I think Vince and Misj' have started a very interesting dialogue here, Tuomas and Babar have clearly something to say on the subject,
and my advice to the others is that you should keep the low jokes for another thread. It breaks the concentration of who's reading several pages in tiny letters and what happens is that people are answering people with unrelated comments in the middle.

The point of this thread was to get everybody talking and I guess it was successful. If we didn't do it right or the correct way (me included) than it's because we are still learning.

P.S: Natcho, asking irrelevant questions twice is a sign that you really know what you're going to get.
      And every time you speak you force me to come back here. Please be more responsible. There are 16 year kids reading this stuff who might be nutty enough to believe you.
     

Natcho, can't you ask questions that were not answered before?

- Why are you so sure they were wrong? Because I told you so?

- Gorillas have souls, you don't!

- The best and kindest golden-hearted person in earth will surely die in peace. That's Heaven.

- I have no doubt someone like Hitler could confess his sins. If he truly acknowledged what he did, I wouldn't want to be inside his head. Haven't you done bad things that you regretted later, Natcho?

- I will not answer the question about your sister. If you don't need God then figure it out yourself.

- Everybody can "Go to Heaven", even you.

- I hope those who believe in Shiva play Dave Gilbert's game

- Read the Old Testament again.

- The same as above.

- What do you think?

Your answers Natcho.  

Isn't by now accepted in this thread that I cannot prove God's existence to you?

Portugal has a Healthcare system that I consider pretty fair when relating to what I've been reading.
You do have a card with a number that stays with you all your life. You're given a Family Doctor who is basically someone that will always be your doctor and the system tries to provide the same one to your keen.
Public Hospitals have a minimum fee (5euros) I think, and if you can't pay for serious operations the state will.
Of course the downside is the long waiting lists.
Basically if you have money you rather go to a private Hospital, but if not, the cases of people suffering badly without treatment are dropping every year.
I must say that if it isn't perfect it is pretty decent.
Of course Portugal is on the verge of bankruptcy because of the heavy healthcare system.

KhrisMUC, I think you're getting too personal about this. Natcho, I can handle him, because he's just Spanish and the best footballer in the world is Portuguese. 8)
My life is pretty real. It's even hard sometimes. I started this thread to see if people could spar some thoughts in a mature way. And the main barrier I see is that most non-believers see the world as it is today and cannot put themselves, by a simple exercise using their imagination, on how life was in the past.
Actually I see non-believers as very narrow-minded people, sorry to say it.
You keep coming back with the Bible witch is common sense that it cannot be read like a novel. Yet Natcho goes about the Old Testament without even taking a simple google search and find out what scientist (wow, really? Scientists?) have done so far in tracing back history through the events of the Bible. Surprising it may be, Khris, all the main events described in the Bible have related coherent occurrences both geographically and on our known time line.
About you smoking and the possibility of getting cancer it's really up to your willing on diminishing the probabilities. What I meant and I agree I didn't pick the right words was that science may cure those but will at the same time create other.
Science is getting into a very dangerous path and we will pay a enormous price. Super medication side effects are clear. It creates Super bacteria.
Before you judge me for what I just wrote, let me tell you that if I had to take this red pill to live even knowing that humanity COULD suffer some time later with my action, my answer is that probably I would take the pill.
I am not better than you. Maybe you would throw the pill away.
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Who decides who God listens to?
Why do I know what and why God does things?
Well the answer is through praying. It's a state of mind. I can't be any more clear than this because I lack the words or talent to do it.
If I sound delusional to you then I know it's time for me to retire from the very thread I started. I can see your tolerance towards different opinions is next to zero.
I've been mocked, insulted and even my wife was called a nazi.
I feel just like a Christian in Imperial Rome.