What's Wrong with Adventure Games: Difference between revisions

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BB: about the puzzle in TLJ, it actually made sense to me, because you use the ducky, the clamp, and the chain thing to create a hook, and "fish out" the key. The key was dropped there. It all depends on what you see as logical, sometimes in games it's fun to have a bit of illogical puzzles. A game would be boring if everything was totally logical, for example a key would always be sused on a door, and to cut a piece of paper for example. IMO, it's more interesting when the objects you use are not used how you would excpect to use them, but instead in an origianl way. This can also include things that would sometimes seem illogical. That's why providing hints is important, to make the player see the logic in things, or give him an idea. Grim Fandango is a great example of this.
BB: about the puzzle in TLJ, it actually made sense to me, because you use the ducky, the clamp, and the chain thing to create a hook, and "fish out" the key. The key was dropped there. It all depends on what you see as logical, sometimes in games it's fun to have a bit of illogical puzzles. A game would be boring if everything was totally logical, for example a key would always be sused on a door, and to cut a piece of paper for example. IMO, it's more interesting when the objects you use are not used how you would excpect to use them, but instead in an origianl way. This can also include things that would sometimes seem illogical. That's why providing hints is important, to make the player see the logic in things, or give him an idea. Grim Fandango is a great example of this.


DGM: I agree, that's one of the biggest thing that bother me too. I like original ideas, like GF for example (how do I always bring it up? Wink).
DGM: I agree, that's one of the biggest thing that bother me too. I like original ideas, like GF for example (how do I always bring it up? {{Wink}}).
TLJ was original too, because it took the cliche story of saving the world(s) etc, and turned it into something origianl and interesting, with a huge nackstory. This is also important, to have a lot of details about the story (the exception would be in a humourous game, but even in a game like MI it's important to know details and backstory, even if the player doesn't get to know them). If the designers have a lot of details worked out, they feel much more natural when
TLJ was original too, because it took the cliche story of saving the world(s) etc, and turned it into something origianl and interesting, with a huge nackstory. This is also important, to have a lot of details about the story (the exception would be in a humourous game, but even in a game like MI it's important to know details and backstory, even if the player doesn't get to know them). If the designers have a lot of details worked out, they feel much more natural when


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Sound effects I mentioned, as an addition to animation, sound effects are great for immersion and making the game not static. Once again I bring Apprentice as an example, because it did these thing so well.
Sound effects I mentioned, as an addition to animation, sound effects are great for immersion and making the game not static. Once again I bring Apprentice as an example, because it did these thing so well.


But enough about AGS games, let's talk commercial. Tongue
But enough about AGS games, let's talk commercial. {{Tongue}}


Puzzles can be a problem yes, because sometimes they are brought as a standalone, when they should be intergrated entirely into the plot. They are the means, not the end.
Puzzles can be a problem yes, because sometimes they are brought as a standalone, when they should be intergrated entirely into the plot. They are the means, not the end.
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Both in AGS and commercial games, characters aren't always done very well. It doesn't matter if it's humourous, serious, or somewhere in between, it's important to have characters with an intereting personality, preferably with some special twist to it. Character devlopment is also nice, though not neccessary IMO.
Both in AGS and commercial games, characters aren't always done very well. It doesn't matter if it's humourous, serious, or somewhere in between, it's important to have characters with an intereting personality, preferably with some special twist to it. Character devlopment is also nice, though not neccessary IMO.


Umm, in cemmercial games, I'd like to see better voice acting, which is ussually not great. TLJ and GF have splendid voice acting for example. Though some would disagree, I'd also like to see voice acting in AGS games more, though I know it can be hard, since it's important that it's good. If it is good though, it adds so much IMO. Plus, I find myself reading the text and missing the talking animation, with voices I can look at the animation instead. Also, talking animations should be made more interesting than just moving the mouth, it should have something more to it, like head movements and hands possible. Or like Stan in MI, who moved his whole body while speaking. It added a whole lot of personality to him.
Umm, in commercial games, I'd like to see better voice acting, which is ussually not great. TLJ and GF have splendid voice acting for example. Though some would disagree, I'd also like to see voice acting in AGS games more, though I know it can be hard, since it's important that it's good. If it is good though, it adds so much IMO. Plus, I find myself reading the text and missing the talking animation, with voices I can look at the animation instead. Also, talking animations should be made more interesting than just moving the mouth, it should have something more to it, like head movements and hands possible. Or like Stan in MI, who moved his whole body while speaking. It added a whole lot of personality to him.


(Is this some sort of official discussion always started after Mittens, each time a new topic?)
(Is this some sort of official discussion always started after Mittens, each time a new topic?)


That's about all for now... Smiley
That's about all for now... {{Smiley}}


==Riot Discussion==
==Riot Discussion==
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I'm starting to think fondly about graphic adventures with text parser mostly because TADS and HUGO proved that a flexible parser with which you don't need to "guess verb" is possible. And as it IS easier to become involved when some nifty graphics are on the screen, the combination seems perfect... hm?
I'm starting to think fondly about graphic adventures with text parser mostly because TADS and HUGO proved that a flexible parser with which you don't need to "guess verb" is possible. And as it IS easier to become involved when some nifty graphics are on the screen, the combination seems perfect... hm?


==DGMacphee Discussion==
==DGMacphee Discussion 2==
{{Quote|author=DGMacphee|text=I believe we are discussing the shortcomings of the genre as a whole, not of specific games. Yes, some use cliche stories. But this is not the problem of the genre, but the problem of individual adventure games.}}
{{Quote|author=DGMacphee|text=I believe we are discussing the shortcomings of the genre as a whole, not of specific games. Yes, some use cliche stories. But this is not the problem of the genre, but the problem of individual adventure games.}}
Um, I am talking about the genre as a whole, ijit!
Um, I am talking about the genre as a whole, ijit!


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It IS a problem with the genre because developers (commercial AND indie) rely upon it too much.
It IS a problem with the genre because developers (commercial AND indie) rely upon it too much.


So stick that up your bumcrack and fart it!  Grin
So stick that up your bumcrack and fart it!  {{Grin}}


==Las Naranjas Discussion==
==Las Naranjas Discussion==
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So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.
So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.


Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code Tongue)
Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code {{Tongue}})


==Ginny Discussion==
==Ginny Discussion==
Vartgrass: I've had and played B&W for more than year now, aswell as the expansion pack, and the interface is indeed inventive, though I dunno how it would suit adventure games. You use the mouse to change your view and location, but not in the way you would expect. It takes some getting used to. You are 'the hand of god' and you drag your way around, or double click to get somewhere directly, and use the wheel or Ctrl+up arrow/down arrow to zoom in and out. Personally I really like holding down the wheel and moving the mouse, which allows me to trun, pan, and zoom altogether, finding the best view. This wouldn't work very well in a 3rd person perspective adventure though. It might work well in a 1st person, with some altering of course.
Vartgrass: I've had and played B&W for more than year now, aswell as the expansion pack, and the interface is indeed inventive, though I dunno how it would suit adventure games. You use the mouse to change your view and location, but not in the way you would expect. It takes some getting used to. You are 'the hand of god' and you drag your way around, or double click to get somewhere directly, and use the wheel or Ctrl+up arrow/down arrow to zoom in and out. Personally I really like holding down the wheel and moving the mouse, which allows me to trun, pan, and zoom altogether, finding the best view. This wouldn't work very well in a 3rd person perspective adventure though. It might work well in a 1st person, with some altering of course.
There is more to the interface of course, the physics of the B&W world are amazingly accurate and when you throw a rock for example, how quickly, how hard, and in what direction you throw it directly affect wherer it will hit. How hard it hits affects the object that it hits. There were some things that you could call puzzles in B&W, like finding a person or a stone you needed, but these aren't at all like adventure game puzzles.
There is more to the interface of course, the physics of the B&W world are amazingly accurate and when you throw a rock for example, how quickly, how hard, and in what direction you throw it directly affect wherer it will hit. How hard it hits affects the object that it hits. There were some things that you could call puzzles in B&W, like finding a person or a stone you needed, but these aren't at all like adventure game puzzles.
If BW were and AG, it would be incredibly non-linear, since you can basically choose to do anything in each situation, and what you choose afects your alignment and thus the game (though the end of the game isn't affected. Just the means you use to get there Wink). What I liked most about the game was teaching the creature and growing it to be a useful "pet" which helps with your quests.
If BW were and AG, it would be incredibly non-linear, since you can basically choose to do anything in each situation, and what you choose afects your alignment and thus the game (though the end of the game isn't affected. Just the means you use to get there {{Wink}}). What I liked most about the game was teaching the creature and growing it to be a useful "pet" which helps with your quests.


If such strong non-linearity and change, plus different possible endings, were to be implemented in a game, this would produch great results IMO, and great replayability.
If such strong non-linearity and change, plus different possible endings, were to be implemented in a game, this would produch great results IMO, and great replayability.
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About  wether they are the Gameplay or part of the story, I think they should be the story, but very often become solely the gameplay, which is when they feel unnatural and disconnected.
About  wether they are the Gameplay or part of the story, I think they should be the story, but very often become solely the gameplay, which is when they feel unnatural and disconnected.


DGM: Lol about Ben and Bernard! Smiley
DGM: Lol about Ben and Bernard! {{Smiley}}


Quote from: netmonkey on August Sunday 10 2003 01 47 25 PM MDT
{{Quote|author=netmonkey|date=10/08/2003|text=So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.
'''So, from what I'm reading so far puzzles need to be less dumb and pointless, and a lot less rigid and more flexible. With this flexiblity, tho, there's the chance of going back to the old adventure games. for example, on King's quest 1 you have to find the three lost items, but that's really all you know. then you have to walk around and find out where they are, and you're totally clueless of what to do, therefore losing your attention span. Yeah, I haven't finished King's Quest I mainly because I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. With zak mckracken and maniac mansion it was the similar style because you could basicly go anywhere and do stuff. Of course, this has changed over the years but to a super-rigid linear style that still has the same old I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing style here and there. So maybe players need more direction on what to do,... but that's all I've got. I have no idea how to accomplish this without making the game too stupid.


Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code Tongue)'''
Maybe we should start working on some set of general rules we can use for future adventure games; we could call it something like "the adventure game code" (idea stolen from the comic book code {{Tongue}})}}


Good idea about the game code, seriously. It could be a great sort of guide/tutorial on making games. It should be very deatiled and extensive though, so it would take a lot of work,
Good idea about the game code, seriously. It could be a great sort of guide/tutorial on making games. It should be very deatiled and extensive though, so it would take a lot of work,
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About the visible interface: In BW there is no visible interface as I already mentioned, but as I said it isn't exactly good for AG's.
About the visible interface: In BW there is no visible interface as I already mentioned, but as I said it isn't exactly good for AG's.


Your forgetting one great pure AG with no visible interface though: Grim Fandango Smiley
Your forgetting one great pure AG with no visible interface though: Grim Fandango {{Smiley}}
You move with the keyboard and your inventory is your jacket. You pick things up and you hold them in your hand when you use them. The only interface in that game is the menu, and the dialogs. I think the dialogs are one of the hardest interfaces to get rid of, because the only way would be to allow the player to type in what he wants to say, and this is generally impossible cause we never know what he will type, and how to respond.
You move with the keyboard and your inventory is your jacket. You pick things up and you hold them in your hand when you use them. The only interface in that game is the menu, and the dialogs. I think the dialogs are one of the hardest interfaces to get rid of, because the only way would be to allow the player to type in what he wants to say, and this is generally impossible cause we never know what he will type, and how to respond.
The menu is also not yet "get-rid-of-able" but it might not be such a problem because it's outside the game. Saving the game will always be required for example.
The menu is also not yet "get-rid-of-able" but it might not be such a problem because it's outside the game. Saving the game will always be required for example.
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Who knows... Maybe someday, we'll have a way to connect our mids to the computer, and it would read our minds and we control the game by thinking, and the dialogs would be spoken by us, with responses for anything, and with special virtual reality glasses we would feel like we were inside the game. And saving and loading will be implemented by thinking about it, and poof, it's saved, or will be automatic.
Who knows... Maybe someday, we'll have a way to connect our mids to the computer, and it would read our minds and we control the game by thinking, and the dialogs would be spoken by us, with responses for anything, and with special virtual reality glasses we would feel like we were inside the game. And saving and loading will be implemented by thinking about it, and poof, it's saved, or will be automatic.
It would require making sure accidental thoughts don't get read though, like maybe identifying when the thought is directed at the game.
It would require making sure accidental thoughts don't get read though, like maybe identifying when the thought is directed at the game.
Now that's what I call immersive. Tongue Wink The only thing missing is adding the ability to taste, smell, and touch things inside the game. My, now that sounds scary. Fun, but scary... Wink
Now that's what I call immersive. {{Tongue}} {{Wink}} The only thing missing is adding the ability to taste, smell, and touch things inside the game. My, now that sounds scary. Fun, but scary... {{Wink}}


==MachineElf (formerly Vargtass) Discussion==
==MachineElf (formerly Vargtass) Discussion==
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==eVOLVE Discussion==
==eVOLVE Discussion==
I like the B&W interface Smiley I was at Lionhead and was directly asked about the interface, and that was something that I had some input in Smiley Check the manual for my name in the creds if you wanna give me an ego boost too...
I like the B&W interface {{Smiley}} I was at Lionhead and was directly asked about the interface, and that was something that I had some input in {{Smiley}} Check the manual for my name in the creds if you wanna give me an ego boost too...


Back to the top though, the problem will cross genre games is that you're limiting your audience if you cross them too much... Take a game that mixed lots of adventure elements with a FPS game or something... if you were a fan of both genres it might be the perfect game for you... if you didn't like adventures, even if the FPS portion was incredible, you may not get it, and equally vice versa for adventure fans...
Back to the top though, the problem will cross genre games is that you're limiting your audience if you cross them too much... Take a game that mixed lots of adventure elements with a FPS game or something... if you were a fan of both genres it might be the perfect game for you... if you didn't like adventures, even if the FPS portion was incredible, you may not get it, and equally vice versa for adventure fans...


==Ginny Discussion==
==Ginny Discussion==
I don't have the credits for BW cause the manual was translated to hebrew and the left out the credits, and I don't have the game installed right now, but there's a guy in the CI (Creature Isle, expansion pack) named James Norton Wink.
I don't have the credits for BW cause the manual was translated to hebrew and the left out the credits, and I don't have the game installed right now, but there's a guy in the CI (Creature Isle, expansion pack) named James Norton {{Wink}}.
There's also a European Marketing guy named... Murray Pannell Grin.
There's also a European Marketing guy named... Murray Pannell {{Grin}}.


On topic though: "Now, there's puzzles and there's "must do's". Must do's are actions that you must carry out for the story to continue. Puzzles are challenges for the mind (how can I accomplish this/aquire that/whatever). How woul,d you feel about a game that only consists of "must do's", or perhaps sometimes not even that, but timed events carried out by NPC:s which of you have no control over. The actual GAMEPLAY is reduced, so it's perhaps not more than an interactive story of you can affect the way the plot will evolve. Is the puzzles the adventure GAMEPLAY, or is it also experiencing the story?"
On topic though: "Now, there's puzzles and there's "must do's". Must do's are actions that you must carry out for the story to continue. Puzzles are challenges for the mind (how can I accomplish this/aquire that/whatever). How woul,d you feel about a game that only consists of "must do's", or perhaps sometimes not even that, but timed events carried out by NPC:s which of you have no control over. The actual GAMEPLAY is reduced, so it's perhaps not more than an interactive story of you can affect the way the plot will evolve. Is the puzzles the adventure GAMEPLAY, or is it also experiencing the story?"
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For example, a small MI spoiler:
For example, a small MI spoiler:
Spoiler below, select the area to read the text
{{Spoiler|In one part of the game you have to free someone from a jail cell. I forget why, havent played MI for a while, but that's your must do. In order to do it though, since the cell is locked, you have to do something. In this case it's carry grog in a timing puzzle, and use the grog on the lock before it melts the cup. This is a puzzle, but it is not in any way avoidable, it too, is an essential "must do" for completing the game.}}
'''In one part of the game you have to free someone from a jail cell. I forget why, havent played MI for a while, but that's your must do. In order to do it though, since the cell is locked, you have to do something. In this case it's carry grog in a timing puzzle, and use the grog on the lock before it melts the cup. This is a puzzle, but it is not in any way avoidable, it too, is an essential "must do" for completing the game.
A game is like a sweater. One stich seems unimportant on it's own, but take it out and the whole sweater falls apart.
A game is like a sweater. One stich seems unimportant on it's own, but take it out and the whole sweater falls apart.'''
(That was a horrible cliche, excuse me while I throw up, but it is true IMO {{Wink}}).
(That was a horrible cliche, excuse me while I throw up, but it is true IMO Wink).


IMO we shouldn't be so hard on the puzzles, they put the 'game' in 'adventure game', after all. The excpetions are mini games, extra puzzles, and easter eggs, which are not part of the neccessary "must do's", but in my opinion they do not detract from the story, instead, they can add to the game enviorment and thus add to immersion.
IMO we shouldn't be so hard on the puzzles, they put the 'game' in 'adventure game', after all. The excpetions are mini games, extra puzzles, and easter eggs, which are not part of the neccessary "must do's", but in my opinion they do not detract from the story, instead, they can add to the game enviorment and thus add to immersion.
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==Barcik Discussion==
==Barcik Discussion==
A shortcoming of the adventurre games genre:
A shortcoming of the adventure games genre:


Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.
Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.
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==Riot Discussion==
==Riot Discussion==
GinnyW: I was referring to "must do's" without a puzzle behind it, as asking a character the right question or just exiting your apartment. The MI example is an excellent example however on a succesful imlementation of a puzzle into the story. It simply makes sense. But IMHO, if there's a "must do" with a puzzle, it's a puzzle Smiley
GinnyW: I was referring to "must do's" without a puzzle behind it, as asking a character the right question or just exiting your apartment. The MI example is an excellent example however on a succesful imlementation of a puzzle into the story. It simply makes sense. But IMHO, if there's a "must do" with a puzzle, it's a puzzle {{Smiley}}


Parsers: I think parser is the salvation. I've fiddled around with the idea since the first version of WTII, which was horrid due to the rest of the GUI stole the game design. But I love the parser, a good one that is...
Parsers: I think parser is the salvation. I've fiddled around with the idea since the first version of WTII, which was horrid due to the rest of the GUI stole the game design. But I love the parser, a good one that is...
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However, let me add my two cents to the "puzzles - do we need them?" discussion:
However, let me add my two cents to the "puzzles - do we need them?" discussion:


Two of my favorite games, mostly for sentimental reasons,  are the first two Police Quests. But for now, let's focus on PQ1. Is there a single puzzle in the game? Well, that depends on your definition of "puzzle". For most of the game you just do what you are told, and do your job following proper police procedure (not too difficult when you actually have the manual Wink). I can only recall two situations in the game that demanded any kind of thought process - finding enough proof to get a no bail warrant and reporting back to your boss from the hotel. But did any of this make the game too easy or detract from the immersion? Hell no, I really felt like I was a cop peforming my duties, doing things by the book. I always knew what to do next, and usually how to do it, BECAUSE IT MADE PERFECT, LOGICAL SENSE WITHIN THE SITUATION!
Two of my favorite games, mostly for sentimental reasons,  are the first two Police Quests. But for now, let's focus on PQ1. Is there a single puzzle in the game? Well, that depends on your definition of "puzzle". For most of the game you just do what you are told, and do your job following proper police procedure (not too difficult when you actually have the manual {{Wink}}). I can only recall two situations in the game that demanded any kind of thought process - finding enough proof to get a no bail warrant and reporting back to your boss from the hotel. But did any of this make the game too easy or detract from the immersion? Hell no, I really felt like I was a cop peforming my duties, doing things by the book. I always knew what to do next, and usually how to do it, BECAUSE IT MADE PERFECT, LOGICAL SENSE WITHIN THE SITUATION!


The major problem with adventure game plots and settings seems to be the lack of natural gameplay potential - interation that flows from within the plot, the characters and the setting. PQ is a game about a cop - what do cops do? Wouldn't it be cool to play a cop? Sure it would! Space Quest is a game about a janitor on a space ship - what do janitors do? Nah, that's too boring, let's throw him into some wild adventures. See where I'm going?
The major problem with adventure game plots and settings seems to be the lack of natural gameplay potential - interation that flows from within the plot, the characters and the setting. PQ is a game about a cop - what do cops do? Wouldn't it be cool to play a cop? Sure it would! Space Quest is a game about a janitor on a space ship - what do janitors do? Nah, that's too boring, let's throw him into some wild adventures. See where I'm going?
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Another example, from the designer of Police Quest nonetheless, is Codename: Iceman. The player character is a spy - sounds cool, right? - what do spies do? Well, for one they don't travel across the Atlantic in a nuclear submarine, torpedoing enemy ships along the way, risking international conflict, just to infiltrate a country where - get this - a fellow spy, who you met in the Caribbean just before you mission - has been all along! What's that you're saying? The guy is a submarine captain too? Oh, I see. What do submarine captains do? They certainly DON'T do metal shop work at the lathe, trying to repair diving equipment. Nor do they play dice with one of their crew people for a piece of advanced technology essential for the mission a world peace. These are absurd tasks, that have little to do with the actual scope of the man's mission.
Another example, from the designer of Police Quest nonetheless, is Codename: Iceman. The player character is a spy - sounds cool, right? - what do spies do? Well, for one they don't travel across the Atlantic in a nuclear submarine, torpedoing enemy ships along the way, risking international conflict, just to infiltrate a country where - get this - a fellow spy, who you met in the Caribbean just before you mission - has been all along! What's that you're saying? The guy is a submarine captain too? Oh, I see. What do submarine captains do? They certainly DON'T do metal shop work at the lathe, trying to repair diving equipment. Nor do they play dice with one of their crew people for a piece of advanced technology essential for the mission a world peace. These are absurd tasks, that have little to do with the actual scope of the man's mission.


Instead of coming up with weird puzzles and trying to fit them into your narrative, try to come up with with game concepts that are full of cool tasks which lends themselves to interaction. Even a cleaning lady game where you have to find the right product to get the blood stains off the bathroom floor is more fun than rubber duckies Wink
Instead of coming up with weird puzzles and trying to fit them into your narrative, try to come up with with game concepts that are full of cool tasks which lends themselves to interaction. Even a cleaning lady game where you have to find the right product to get the blood stains off the bathroom floor is more fun than rubber duckies {{Wink}}


==Ginny Discussion==
==Ginny Discussion==
GG:
GG: Your point is very well presented, but since I havn't played PQ, I'm interested in exactly how the duties were performed.
Your point is very well presented, but since I havn't played PQ, I'm interested in exactly how the duties were performed.
If, for example, you had to find an armed criminal in hiding, disram him and arrest him, what was the proccess? Were the little bits like finding him for example include things like dialog puzzles or to trap him for example, would you pick up a net and put it on the ground?
If, for example, you had to find an armed criminal in hiding, disram him and arrest him, what was the proccess? Were the little bits like finding him for example include things like dialog puzzles or to trap him for example, would you pick up a net and put it on the ground?
If yes, then it still could be called normal puzzles, but very much in context, which all puzzles should be.
If yes, then it still could be called normal puzzles, but very much in context, which all puzzles should be.
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Combining mouse and keyboard usage is annoying, that's for sure.
Combining mouse and keyboard usage is annoying, that's for sure.


Barcik:
{{Quote|author=Barcik|text=Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.
Quote
'''Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.
 
Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.'''


Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.}}
I agree, being stuck is a problem. If you don't get stuck at all, it might seem like the game is too easy, and the game would be much shorter if every puzzle would be solved immeadeatly, without some thought, IMO.
I agree, being stuck is a problem. If you don't get stuck at all, it might seem like the game is too easy, and the game would be much shorter if every puzzle would be solved immeadeatly, without some thought, IMO.
However, this can be mended by making sure that when the player is stuck, he has more things to do. I don't mean other puzzles, because these too could, after being finished, leave you stuck with the one puzzle you can't solve.
However, this can be mended by making sure that when the player is stuck, he has more things to do. I don't mean other puzzles, because these too could, after being finished, leave you stuck with the one puzzle you can't solve.
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Another good example is Apprentice, which provided hints in dialogs, but not only that, it also provided some inside an interactive elements of the enviorment, which has nothing to do with any puzzle. It's a crytal ball which you can interact with, which gives funny responses to things you ask, and you can also use any item with it, and it will give a small hint about it vaguely, and these too are humorous.
Another good example is Apprentice, which provided hints in dialogs, but not only that, it also provided some inside an interactive elements of the enviorment, which has nothing to do with any puzzle. It's a crytal ball which you can interact with, which gives funny responses to things you ask, and you can also use any item with it, and it will give a small hint about it vaguely, and these too are humorous.
Smiley
{{Smiley}}


Hmm, looks like I'm gonna replay GF again. Grin
Hmm, looks like I'm gonna replay GF again. {{Grin}}
Here's another thing GF did well: Voice acting. Some of the best voice acting I've ever heard, and is the reason I think good voice acting is important, because it adds so much to the character and to immersion, and IMO to the enjoyment from the game too.
Here's another thing GF did well: Voice acting. Some of the best voice acting I've ever heard, and is the reason I think good voice acting is important, because it adds so much to the character and to immersion, and IMO to the enjoyment from the game too.


P.s. You're right about having too many topics here, perhaps we can focus it later on one specific subject. Looks like puzzles are getting the most attention, but it might still be a topic too wide.
P.s. You're right about having too many topics here, perhaps we can focus it later on one specific subject. Looks like puzzles are getting the most attention, but it might still be a topic too wide.


Is this an annual thing, starting a debate about something after Mittens? Like a sort of activity? Smiley
Is this an annual thing, starting a debate about something after Mittens? Like a sort of activity? {{Smiley}}
 
 


[[Category:Game Theory Discussions]]
[[Category:Adventure Game Design]]

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