What's Wrong with Adventure Games: Difference between revisions

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Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.
Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.
==Riot Discussion==
GinnyW: I was referring to "must do's" without a puzzle behind it, as asking a character the right question or just exiting your apartment. The MI example is an excellent example however on a succesful imlementation of a puzzle into the story. It simply makes sense. But IMHO, if there's a "must do" with a puzzle, it's a puzzle Smiley
Parsers: I think parser is the salvation. I've fiddled around with the idea since the first version of WTII, which was horrid due to the rest of the GUI stole the game design. But I love the parser, a good one that is...
However, there's one issue. The idea of clicking on something and then type in a verb is nice, cause it eliminates the "guess the object" phase many old adventures suffer. However, it'll require specific hotspots, usually for everything the player may click on. Furthermore, I experienced it to be annoying to combine mouse and keyboard usage (click-type, click-type).
Strict keyboard usage ala AGI games gives a more free dimension to interacting with the world. But it all lies down to HOW the parser is written. It is crucial that it's well written with lots of synonyms and similar to avoid verb-guessing sessions.
==GarageGothic Discussion==
First of all, it's great to see the game theory discussion thread started. I've been looking forward to this since before Mittens.
Secondly, some feedback to Bionic Bill, which, I hope, will influence next weeks topic: We need to get WAY more specific. This weeks thread might be a good way to find topics for future discussions, but as a debate it's not very rewarding. I've nearly given up on replying to it, since so many sub-topics have been brought up. Everything from bad voice acting to whether we should bring back the text parser (imho, the latter would be a good example of a well defined and limited subject for a discussion). What's wrong with adventure games and what should be done about it might as well be the title of a years worth of game theory discussions.
However, let me add my two cents to the "puzzles - do we need them?" discussion:
Two of my favorite games, mostly for sentimental reasons,  are the first two Police Quests. But for now, let's focus on PQ1. Is there a single puzzle in the game? Well, that depends on your definition of "puzzle". For most of the game you just do what you are told, and do your job following proper police procedure (not too difficult when you actually have the manual Wink). I can only recall two situations in the game that demanded any kind of thought process - finding enough proof to get a no bail warrant and reporting back to your boss from the hotel. But did any of this make the game too easy or detract from the immersion? Hell no, I really felt like I was a cop peforming my duties, doing things by the book. I always knew what to do next, and usually how to do it, BECAUSE IT MADE PERFECT, LOGICAL SENSE WITHIN THE SITUATION!
The major problem with adventure game plots and settings seems to be the lack of natural gameplay potential - interation that flows from within the plot, the characters and the setting. PQ is a game about a cop - what do cops do? Wouldn't it be cool to play a cop? Sure it would! Space Quest is a game about a janitor on a space ship - what do janitors do? Nah, that's too boring, let's throw him into some wild adventures. See where I'm going?
Another example, from the designer of Police Quest nonetheless, is Codename: Iceman. The player character is a spy - sounds cool, right? - what do spies do? Well, for one they don't travel across the Atlantic in a nuclear submarine, torpedoing enemy ships along the way, risking international conflict, just to infiltrate a country where - get this - a fellow spy, who you met in the Caribbean just before you mission - has been all along! What's that you're saying? The guy is a submarine captain too? Oh, I see. What do submarine captains do? They certainly DON'T do metal shop work at the lathe, trying to repair diving equipment. Nor do they play dice with one of their crew people for a piece of advanced technology essential for the mission a world peace. These are absurd tasks, that have little to do with the actual scope of the man's mission.
Instead of coming up with weird puzzles and trying to fit them into your narrative, try to come up with with game concepts that are full of cool tasks which lends themselves to interaction. Even a cleaning lady game where you have to find the right product to get the blood stains off the bathroom floor is more fun than rubber duckies Wink
==Ginny Discussion==
GG:
Your point is very well presented, but since I havn't played PQ, I'm interested in exactly how the duties were performed.
If, for example, you had to find an armed criminal in hiding, disram him and arrest him, what was the proccess? Were the little bits like finding him for example include things like dialog puzzles or to trap him for example, would you pick up a net and put it on the ground?
If yes, then it still could be called normal puzzles, but very much in context, which all puzzles should be.
However, can this be done without using a certain proffession, or if the proffession is boring for a game for example (like the janitor)?
Like, if you're just a guy who gets a strange message, and you're restless because of it, the natural thing would be to find out what it means, and thus, for example, someone who can tell you what it means, but is in prison, asks you to get him out. And this would be the puzzle. Would this still be considered natural?
Another issue, which I find is important, but sometimes overlooked, is the inventory items one one pick up in a game, and more specifically, where you can pick them up. You wouldn't find a pie just lying on the floor in your bedroom for example, but you would find it in the kitchen oven, or on the table.
Another thing, when you design a puzzle, what do you do in the proccess? I for example, would start with an obstacle in the context of the story, and find a solution for it, like, for example, using a certain item. However, this item has to be something that can be found in the area, so I would first think just what the item's use is, and then I would think of an item that could fulfill this use, and can be placed in the area logically.
Another way would be to first think up only obstcles, and then in each location, think of many object that could be found there, and then looks through the list and try to put together a solution to the problem.
Which way is better?
BB: Well, exiting your appartment is just walking of course, but asking the right question is a puzzle, a dialog puzzle to be precise.
A gam where you would only walk, is pretty much non-interactive IMO, unless you meant something else.
Combining mouse and keyboard usage is annoying, that's for sure.
Barcik:
Quote
'''Getting stuck. I hate it when I sit 2 days, trying everything and clicking all that is in sight. You just have no darn clue what to do next.
Obviously, there should be challenge, no doubt there. The solutions to puzzles mustn't be elementery. However, getting stuck takes away from your gaming experiencesas there is, unlike in other games with a wider array of options (such as GTA3, for example, where you can do anything), pretty much nothing to do if you do not progress the story. So, being stuck for long harms the gameplay and the link the player has established with the game.'''
I agree, being stuck is a problem. If you don't get stuck at all, it might seem like the game is too easy, and the game would be much shorter if every puzzle would be solved immeadeatly, without some thought, IMO.
However, this can be mended by making sure that when the player is stuck, he has more things to do. I don't mean other puzzles, because these too could, after being finished, leave you stuck with the one puzzle you can't solve.
(Btw, I was wondering what you think of having objects from a puzzle be required for another puzzle? I.e. there are 2 puzzles that you could seemingly solve at any order, but it turns out that to solve puzzle A, you need an item picked up while doing puzzle B, or right after doing puzzle B. This detracts from non linearity, but then again, it makes all the puzzles seem connected, integrated, and makes them fit in IMO.)
So, in order to avoid being stuck in the usual way, I think the solution is interactive elemts of the enviorment you are in. If you're in a hotel or some resort for rest, there could be a pool table, which you could use to play pool with the other tenants, etc, and this could be done at any time, like when you're stuck for example. The same with dialogs, there should be more dialog options to just pass time with the people in the area, and things like that. Also, allowing you to explore the area and interact with it just as an extra, not advancing the story, can also help. Some games say, "I don't have time for that. I have a treasure to find!" or something in the style. But do we have time to wander aimlessely, trying to solve the problem that has been presented to us?
I think another thing that can make sure the player doesn't get stuck is having logical puzzles, and providing Hints. Hints in the dialogs, in descriptions for things, etc. A good example: Grim Fandango. For example (spoiler):
Spoiler below, select the area to read the text
'''When you need to get one of Domino's clents (which you are hinted about in a comment Manny makes), you will meet a character who says "those punks in de mail room" stuck their 'empty beer bottles' into the tube switcher which transfers the messages about clients. You need a client. Someone else's client. So yo jam the tube switcher machine. Etc..'''
Another good example is Apprentice, which provided hints in dialogs, but not only that, it also provided some inside an interactive elements of the enviorment, which has nothing to do with any puzzle. It's a crytal ball which you can interact with, which gives funny responses to things you ask, and you can also use any item with it, and it will give a small hint about it vaguely, and these too are humorous.
Smiley
Hmm, looks like I'm gonna replay GF again. Grin
Here's another thing GF did well: Voice acting. Some of the best voice acting I've ever heard, and is the reason I think good voice acting is important, because it adds so much to the character and to immersion, and IMO to the enjoyment from the game too.
P.s. You're right about having too many topics here, perhaps we can focus it later on one specific subject. Looks like puzzles are getting the most attention, but it might still be a topic too wide.
Is this an annual thing, starting a debate about something after Mittens? Like a sort of activity? Smiley






[[Category:Game Theory Discussions]]
[[Category:Game Theory Discussions]]
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