AGS Games page to require login to vote

[Pumaman]

After a few complaints to me recently from game authors, I have been investigating the voting record on the Games page and it looks like it's almost as irregular as Florida's.

I'm really just posting this thread to make it known how disappointed I am that people have been abusing the system (by repeatedly voting 100% for games they like (or in some cases, games they wrote), and by repeatedly voting 0% for games they don't like).

At the moment the Games page just uses an IP check to stop you voting twice, but obviously people with dynamic IP's just need to disconnect and reconnect their internet to get around that.

Therefore, I will be changing the Games page to require you to log into the forums in order to vote on a game (much as you have to at the moment to post a comment). I really didn't want to have to do this, because it effectively means that all the game players who aren't members of the forum (of which there are quite a lot) will no longer be able to vote; but with the current scale of abuse, there's not much choice if the system is to remain fair.

I'm sorry that it has come to this, but I guess that's the price of the games page growing.

[m0ds]

Good idea Chris, as far as I can tell it makes sense.

[Ubel]

Thank you for doing this, CJ. It's a good idea, although, as you mentioned, it has its drawbacks too. :\

But hopefully this will make the system more balanced.

[edmundito]

Good idea. Now you can find out who the Trolls are.

The only thing I would recommend is that it would be nice to separate the current registration/login from the forums and just make it an login system for the whole ags website. that way people who are not regulars who stumble upon the ags website can just get an account to write reviews. In addition to that, the ags website would need some kind of line to tell them wether they're logged in or not (like the "Hey, X, you have x messages, x are new." on the forum)

[Radiant]

So what would happen with the existing (and assumedly flawed) scores?

I'm not really surprised to hear people voting 100% or 0% (after all, that's exactly what they do for the AGS awards, pick a game they like and nominate or vote for it in every single category). I am rather surprised that there's many people who do so repeatedly.

So I guess maybe you should throw out all 100% and 0% votes and recalculate the percentages based on that.


(As a side point - on the category "puzzles and pacing", one option says "N/A". Does that count as 50% for percentages? If so, why?)

[edmundito]

The whole scoring of games in general is flawed anyway. Why do they need to give exact points to every aspect of the game? It's a pretty shallow system, and it is not an exam, either. It might work alright in some websites, but they have a policy on scoring that all editors follow. Not all people are able to do that.

It could be that some people might be using it as a Thumbs Up, Thumbs down approach instead, similar to how Download.com works, or even Rotten Tomatoes (good reviews vs. bad reviews). Some people don't think of themselves as judges, and they might just say "well, I liked this" and "well, I didn't like this.".

I rather see a rating system where you either liked something or you didn't. Or maybe a star system. It's simpler, and both of them are really more of a "how did you like this game?" kind of system instead of "please judge this game by its qualities!". It's what a lot of people do, it's how the AGS awards have worked out in the past years.

Classic example: the graphics for Ben Jordan, or Larry Vales 1, or Pleurghburgh. Some people might think "I liked the graphics" and give it a outstanding, while another might think "oh awesome! they're retro-like graphics, and they were pretty nice, too" and give it the same outstanding, though others think "oh, they sucked! They look like the graphics for Maniac Mansion" and give it a low score, and another might think "well, the brush styles were a little sloppy, and the contrast was low, and the colors not as saturated". You'll get totally different scores, but in the end each of these people either liked them, did not like them, or were indifferent towards the backgrounds, for different reasons. Right now, it expects people to really judge the quality of the graphics.

[HillBilly]

Good. Will this disable people from voting on their own games too?

[buloght]

I agree with Chris. And Edmundo too.

I was just wondering about this, call it a stupid if you want  When I started playing AGS games, I wasn't into the forums yet. All I did was go down the games list and try and download fun games. The only games I picked were naturally those with high ratings. But with the inconsistent voting people that does this could miss a lot of cool games.

Maybe there could be some sort of second opinion, an AGS jury vote or something. Say a couple of people that play all of the games (I know there are in hints and tips and also Jozef) could make up this 'jury' or whatever. And then each game would have a consistent vote (sort of a site rating). And then there is also the normal rating like now.

Just wondering? I know some other sites have site ratings and user ratings.

[Radiant]

It could be that some people might be using it as a Thumbs Up, Thumbs down approach instead,

I think this is an excellent idea. The current percentile marker covers far too wide areas, and is likely misapplied by over half of the voters. For instance, if I were looking for a fun game to play, I wouldn't care at all about its graphics (most of them are retro anyway) but I cannot selectively ignore that. Also, I would want to know if the puzzles are good and challenging. But I can't do that, because people who "liked the game" will give it overall good ratings regardless of whether the puzzles are any good. The current system is lacking in meaning.

So basically what I'd like is a "like/dislike" meter usable by everybody, and a few people who've played waaay too many games that can give their personal opinion (e.g. the ten AGS games with best graphics are ...)

[Lynn]

Please help. I have logged into the forum, but do not know where to go to vote for any game that I have played.

[SSH]

Click on the games montage in the top-left

[Radiant]

By the way make sure your URLs match... if you go to the forums at www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk, you must also go to the games list at www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk, not regular adventuregamestudio.co.uk (which gives you the same page but doesn't see you as logged in)

[Mal]

I am having trouble voting.  Even after logging in to the forums and with Internet Explorer set to accept all cookies, I am unable to get past the page that talks about logging into the forums to vote.  If I click on the link on that page, where it says "Try clicking this link," I still just get sent right back to the page that I cannot get past.

[Pelican]

I rather see a rating system where you either liked something or you didn't. Or maybe a star system. It's simpler, and both of them are really more of a "how did you like this game?" kind of system instead of "please judge this game by its qualities!"

Totally agree with this. Since we're getting a new ratings system by an expert panel (see here), perhaps we should change the user ratings system also? Seeing as a lot of people are obviously ignoring the categories and simply voting based on their likes rather than the game's merits, it seems prudent to provide a voting system that caters to that. We have the expert panel's ratings to judge games by their quality, and users to judge games by how much they liked them. I do believe there were comments in the ratings panel thread that good games may be passed over because of poor graphics etc. dragging their rating down. This seems like a good way to balance both.

[Ghost]

I agree that the percentages- and the sheer broad range of all covered cathegories- are a bit confusing. And it's hard to interpret; I mean, many things, especially graphics, are highly subjective. What's pleasing to someone's eye (or passes as "good retro") might put off someone who just happens to pass by and thinks that 90% graphics means a license of the Unreal2 engine. When it comes to indie games I usually expect less perfect graphics/sound/performance and aim for "good gaming"- a terribly foggy thing that can't be measured in numbers.

Edmundo's suggestion of a star-system sounds really good because it aims at this "fun game" factor. What Pelican says is true, too.

Then again, if we really GET an expert panel, couldn't voting be sensibly done "GameSpot" style?
The experts, who surely have a good understanding of how hard something is to achieve, and will rate this professionally, fill a detailed sheet, containing graphics, story, sound, scripting and the like. That would be the "We Say" section.
In addition to that, users who are not members of the panel get the star system as a "You Say" section.
Unregistered guests could still get a "They Say"...

That way a game would offer a rating you can trust, because it was made by experts, but it would also reflect the reaction of the community and guests. Both "scores" would be seen each time a game is viewed, and that should really allow everyone to get a good first impression.
Sounds not too shabby IMO, though I can see that it would require some changes in the whole system...

[Mal]

Nevermind my previous post.  I figured out how to vote.

[Afflict]

Logging in to vote will be awesome.

[Snake]

Sorry for digging this up - I'm just seeing this now...

Good idea Chris. Voting needs to be fair, there's no doubt about that. Only being able to vote once will get a more accurate score as oppossed to the writer voting for his/her own game 15 times.

In responce to Ghost's suggestion:
Ergh...
Fuck expert judges if you ask me. Voting should be done by the community - we're the people that create and play the games, not to mention all the non-members.
I never thought that kind judging was fair in the first place. For something that the judges would say wasn't very good, 85% of the community would  rather have had it win. Just because things are judged professionaly doesn't necessarily mean that the people agree with their choice. That's what isn't fair. Four or more judges shouldn't have the right to tell us which one of our games was the favorite that year. We need to decide that.

Besides, we're all here to have fun, right? This isn't American Idol.


--Snake

[LimpingFish]

Maybe, but if democracy has thought us anything it's that the majority aren't always right.

People vote for different reasons.

[Snake]

Alright, so how about we just make it a full blown dictatorship? I'll do all the voting and pick which games I think should win and then you can decide how good that idea was.

No, I do agree with you though, democracy isn't accurate - and I think only because the people running for president put on a good show until they get in office, then they fuck shit up. And I agree with that it depends on the voters as well - like you said, people vote for different reasons.

But I still like it better than handing it all over to judges. We're voting on our games here... not who's going to run the country.

I think we should keep it like it always has been but just make it so you can't vote 50 times for one game or your own game.

But, we wouldn't be having these problems if people weren't abusing it.


--Snake