English 101 with Trihan sometimes!

Started by Trihan, Sun 28/06/2009 09:12:40

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Trihan

English is a funny language. There are so many rules that need to be followed, and some words that don't follow the rules, and some that only apply on Tuesdays when there's a full moon and Jupiter is aligned with a hotdog. Enter Trihan, stage left.

I've been around the block a bit when it comes to the English language. I've studied it at great length, and have always been fascinated by the nuances of it, like the fact that the meaning of a sentence can change completely depending only on how you inflect or stress the syllables in words.

I know that for some people here English isn't their first language, and some others who just have trouble with certain aspects of it, so here's what I'm going to do:

You tell me what aspect of English you don't understand/have trouble with/want to know more about, and I will do the best I can to explain it in a way you can understand that will hopefully illustrate the uses of that aspect and why it is the way it is.

Maybe nobody will actually reply to this, but it's just something I wanted to do for fun so if there's no interest it's not a big deal.

Atelier

When using brackets (like this), do you put the full stop outside or inside at the end of a sentence. (Like this.) or (Like this).

I've never known how to do it properly because some people do it differently. :) Thanks.

Anian

I've read it on the net a couple of times but possesive pronouns (I guess)  really confuse me at times. I know IT'S is actually IT IS and stuff like that but I don't get things like JOHN'S, JOHNS - when is it a possesive pronoun and when it is a plural of a noun, the usage of 'S in those cases really messes with me. I go and check every once in a while but I just end up using the wrong things. I just can remember it.

Most of my tenses usage is from what sounds correct to me, but I used to repeat grammar before exams in highschool.  ;D
I don't want the world, I just want your half

Oliwerko

anian - As far as I know:

John's apple = the apple belongs to john
John's an idiot = John is an idiot
Johns = plural

a car's transmission = possesive
cars = plural

Elders - old people
Elders' apples - these apples belong to elders

I may be wrong, but that's how I understand it for years now.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens

Nouns naturally ending in 's' can be used to show possession in two ways:

Davis' car.

Davis's car.

Both are acceptable.


And yes, you use punctuation OUTSIDE of parenthesis.

Phemar

What are the correct rules for speech?

''So,'' I said, ''Is the correct way to write speech?''

Where does the punctuation and all the capital letters go? And how does speech within speech work?

Stee

Quote from: AtelierGames on Sun 28/06/2009 10:40:50
When using brackets (like this), do you put the full stop outside or inside at the end of a sentence. (Like this.) or (Like this).

I've never known how to do it properly because some people do it differently. :) Thanks.

A full stop is always outside the brackets, as it ends the sentence not the brackets.

@Oliwerko: Correct.

@Progz: In english, we only have Davis' car, not Davis's car. I don't know whether it's a different rule in american. However I suppose you could have Davis's an idiot, although that's one I'm not sure on.

Quote from: Phemar on Sun 28/06/2009 12:58:24
What are the correct rules for speech?

''So,'' I said, ''Is the correct way to write speech?''

Where does the punctuation and all the capital letters go? And how does speech within speech work?

"So I was reading this this thread on English and phemar said, ""So," I said, "Is this the correct way to write speech?""

I think that's right. Think of it like nested loops. And If you weren't be serious, stop trying to be a smartarse  :P
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MoodyBlues

Trihan, can you do a lot of us a favor and explain the differences among "they're," "their," and "there?"
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Atelier

My name isn't Trihan but I'll give it a go. :)

They're is a contraction of 'they are'. So you could say: "They're coming home." or "They're very tired."
Their is the possesive: "Their car."
And there: "Is that them over there?"

Anian

#9
Thank you Oli, I do not promise to memorise that though, nothing personal.  ;)

Quote from: AtelierGames on Sun 28/06/2009 13:59:14And there: "Is that them over there?"
But beside "position", it can also be a statement of "existance"/generally position like: Is there a God? Is there somebody in here?
It's more complicated from a grammar stand point but we're talking about applying it in a sentence.
I don't want the world, I just want your half

Oliwerko

Yeah, "there is" is similar to german "es gibt", which means something like "exists".

One thing I've always had troubles with are commas. What are the general rules for applying them?

Ishmael

I've been taught a fun -- not too correct I suppose, but still fun in a way -- rule for commas. Probably applies mostly if you've been taught Finnish comma rules first, but still: "If you feel like there should be a comma, there shouldn't and if you think there shouldn't be a comma there probably should."

Commas are one of the few things I don't remember the real rules for.
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Babar

#12
Heheh...the rule I was taught for commas was that unless you're going to apply them constantly and consistently in the text, it is better to leave them out (except in the obvious places like lists, of course).

Otherwise, the simplest way to place commas is read out the text, and if you think there should be a pause at one point that is not the end of a sentence, put a comma there.
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Snarky

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sun 28/06/2009 12:42:59
And yes, you use punctuation OUTSIDE of parenthesis.

... except when you have a whole sentence in parentheses. (This would be an example.) In that case the punctuation goes inside. The rule of thumb is that if you deleted the brackets and everything inside, you shouldn't have to change anything else (except possibly the spacing around it).


Quote from: Oliwerko on Sun 28/06/2009 11:01:59
a car's transmission = possesive
cars = plural

Just to make things confusing, there are a handful of exceptions where you can use apostrophe-S to indicate plural, like in the expression "mind your p's and q's."

Quote from: Phemar on Sun 28/06/2009 12:58:24
What are the correct rules for speech?

''So,'' I said, ''Is the correct way to write speech?''

Where does the punctuation and all the capital letters go? And how does speech within speech work?

That's not quite correct. You shouldn't use capital letters after either of the commas:

    "So," the commenter explained, "this is the correct way to write dialogue."

This is also true if the bit before the narration ends with some other punctuation, like a question mark or exclamation point:

    "What?" replied Phemar. "Like this?"

(If the initial quoted bit would normally end in a full stop, you use a comma instead.) This example also demonstrates that you'll often want to put a full stop after you've identified the speaker, and start the next bit of dialogue as an independent sentence. Whether you should do that depends on where you interrupted the speaker to insert the narration.

For speech-within-speech, you change from double quotes to single quotes (or from single quotes to double quotes), and otherwise do the same thing:

   "This is how it goes," said Snarky. "'How does speech within speech work?' you ask. Well, here's your answer!"

Quote from: Oliwerko on Sun 28/06/2009 14:51:10
One thing I've always had troubles with are commas. What are the general rules for applying them?

Well, first of all comma rules differ between American and British English. To generalize, the American rules tend to be more analytical and reflect the grammatical structure of the sentence, while British rules tend to be based more on the rhythms of speech, indicating natural pauses. There are too many rules and exceptions to summarize in a single post. What I have noticed is that Germans often use commas excessively by English standards, typically putting it in front of "that." For example, they might punctuate that sentence:

    *What I have noticed is, that Germans often use commas excessively by English standards.

Mr Flibble

#14
Regarding commas.

Basically, use commas to separate clauses and subclauses.

"I thought that he, an experienced programmer, would be able to do it." is a correct usage as "an experienced programmer" is a subclause to that sentence.

"I thought that he an experienced programmer would be able to do it." This clearly isn't correct as it doesn't make sense.

To be honest, nobody is going to bust your balls about using commas to indicate pauses but the subclause thing is the main reason for them. Also:

"What I have noticed, is that Germans often use commas excessively by English standards" is how I would punctuate that sentence. Of course if I went on to say ", typically putting it in front of "that."" my comma would be incorrect as the new sentence would be this:

What I have noticed, is that Germans often use commas excessively by English standards, typically putting it in front of "that".

This looks wrong to be because " is that Germans often use commas excessively by English standards" isn't a subclause by any means. However, someone might still write that since those are the places where you pause.

Oh that reminds me, you always use a comma after saying "However"  if it's a conjuction.

Edit by the Monkey05_06 Foundation for Grammatical Specificness

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Stupot

There is one exception where the full-stop does come inside the parenthesis. (When the content itself is on its own like this and doesn't come as part of another sentence.)

Notice the subtle difference there? That is grammatically correct.

Evil

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sun 28/06/2009 12:42:59
Nouns naturally ending in 's' can be used to show possession in two ways:

Davis' car.

Davis's car.

Both are acceptable.


You have to be careful because nouns that are plural and end in 's' just get the apostrophe at the end.

     The kids toy. (the toy intended for children)
     The kid's toy. (the toy that belongs to a child)
     The kids' toy.  (the toy belonging to multiple children)


But with formal names, things also change.

     John's toys. (the toys belonging to John)
     Johns' toys. (the toys belonging to more than one John)


Names that naturally end in 's' can be tricky.

     James's toy. (the toy belonging to James)
     James' toy. (the toy belonging to James)


There are some names that naturally end in 's' but may also be plural versions of a singular name, like the last name Michaels.

     Michael's toy. (the toy belonging Michael)
     Michaels's toy. (the toy belonging to Michaels)
     Michaels' toy. (the toy belonging to Michaels, or the toy belonging to more than one Michael)


The later doesn't come up often, but sometimes it can be helpful. Usually people can figure it out from the context of what you're writing, but sometimes not. My girlfriend's name is Frances. Unfortunately, most people believe it is spelled like the male Francis. Because it is not a common name (and a surprising number of people have never heard of the name), I make an effort to write her name with the possessive 's rather than a single apostrophe at the end.


monkey0506

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 28/06/2009 16:35:21Oh that reminds me, you always use a comma after saying "However".

That may be true, however there are instances where it's not. :P

Another complication in English is words like "read", "read", "live", "lives", "live", etc.

To explain:

read (RED): Although he had already read the sentence, he had to go back over it to understand what it meant.

read (REED): He really enjoyed reading books, particularly by Michael Crichton, author of novels such as Timeline.

live (LIEv): The news broadcast is being broadcast live as the story unfolds.

live (LIV): It is said that people try to live to the fullest when they feel that the end is near.

Also, I'm not entirely sure my list above is accurate...should the commas be inside the quotation marks? There's plenty more examples but you get the idea.

Mr Flibble

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Sun 28/06/2009 19:07:15
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 28/06/2009 16:35:21Oh that reminds me, you always use a comma after saying "However".

That may be true, however there are instances where it's not. :P


You always use a comma when it's a conjuction.
When it means something like "no matter how" or  something (eg. You wear that damn coat however warm it is outside) then it doesn't take a comma.
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Oliwerko

Thanks for the commas help everyone.

I think I tend more not to use commas than to use them excessively (and I've been strongly taught not to use commas in front of that).
Is ^^ that parenthesis thing ok?

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