An idea for AGS Awards 2013

[Radiant]

I can only count my lucky stars that I've never known the burden of the AGS Award... never... not once... not after ten years and more than twenty AGS games... sigh... lucky me... 

And the Cow Of The Year Trophy goes to...

[Vince Twelve]

There's a Cow of the Year award?  WHY DIDN'T I WIN IT?

Ok, seriously, sorry to derail the thread...

[Ponch]

There's a Cow of the Year award?  WHY DIDN'T I WIN IT?

It's an injustice!! 

[Igor Hardy]

A jury could be involved either in the nomination phase, or the final voting.

Do we really need a jury when there is such a small group of voters? Doesn't Resonance winning all those awards mean that the majority of voters consciously voted for it in almost every category?

If that's the case, I'd say the ceremony went exactly like the majority of the community wanted it to be. I doubt there were any: "Ooops, if I knew Resonance would win so many awards I wouldn't have voted in every category on it. Poor freewares!"

EDIT: Added context.

[Snarky]

I think the question is rather whether the number of high-quality, high-profile commercial releases means that freeware games are effectively locked out of the awards, and if so, whether that's a problem.

In principle it's of course possible to put as much work and as many resources into a freeware game as in a commercial release, and we do see a few free projects that have that amount of tlc applied (The Journey Down AGS-version, Heroine's Quest, Fountain of Youth...). But the amount of effort and the level of execution needed to compete with commercial releases seems to now exceed what most hobbyists can justify; either you set your sights lower, or you make it a commercial project (particularly now that a commercial release has become a more realistic goal).

But for that same reason I'm not entirely convinced it's a problem. It's not like AGS has been taken over by Rockstar Games and EA. Wadjet Eye, Himalaya, Harvester, Infamous Quests, Screen 7... behind those company names are the same people who've been making freeware AGS games for years; most of them active members of the community. Andail and Grundislav are working on commercial games; Ben304 is doing the art for the next Blackwell title. Just because their work is good enough that people are (hopefully) willing to pay for it, should that make them any less eligible to compete just the same as anyone else?

Is a commercial AGS game fundamentally different, so that it requires its own category, or is it just something that is correlated with being made by skilled people who put a lot of effort into it?

[Eric]

I'm curious to see some data on this. Could somebody make a list of all games nominated for the last three years, and point out how many of them are commercial? Are all or most of the winning games actually commercial games?

If I've read everything correctly....

2010: Unsure of this data -- 11 of 17 by Journey Down, which wasn't a commercial game at the time, but is now, right? I wasn't around yet in 2010.
2011: 9 of 17 by commercial games (Gemini Rue & Blackwell Deception)
2012: 12 of 17 by commercial games (Resonance -- actually 13 of 17, if you count a bake sale game, RAM Ghost)

So 61% in the past two years have been won by commercial games (64% if you count RAM Ghost). That 64% stands if you count Journey Down as a commercial game and spread the stats over three years.

Source: AGS Wiki

One thing I might suggest is that there be more attention paid to the credits in listing the nominations. For instance, in the Oscars, the producers get to stand up for the Best Picture award, the director for Best Director, all the way down to the technical positions. All of the nominations were listed as being for Vince, and he had to clarify in his thank-yous who actually did the work. Part of the reaction might be to Resonance as a monolithic entity winning all of the awards, whereas Vince was careful to say, "Credit for this award goes to Shane Stevens / Janet Gilbert / Nikolas Sideris / etc."

I know that Bicilotti had a ton on his(?) plate though. I hope to be able to offer to help out more next year. Another thing that might help is some sort of showcase in between the nomination and voting phase, where each game has a write-up, a screenshot, some commentary from a person not affiliated with the creation of the game. Maybe a stand-alone webpage or PDF. The wiki is nice as a record of events, but it provides little context besides links for someone interested in the games. This showcase might also serve as a sort of outreach to other gaming sites, like a press release, to better achieve the mission of the awards, which I assume is to spread word of the games, as well as the engine.

Money where my mouth is: unless my life is completely topsy-turvy next year (like it was/is this year -- sorry again, Bicilotti), I'll volunteer my time and skills to help out with such an effort if anyone thinks this is a good idea.

[Snarky]

And in 2009, Time Gentlemen, Please! (also commercial) took a majority of the awards. (The commercial version of TJD is different from the freeware AGS version, by the way. As far as I can tell without actually downloading and playing it, the version that won the AGS Awards is still freely available.)

[Ponch]

It's always a little boring when any single game/movie/whatever sweeps an awards show. But it's usually the best game that wins, and so the awards were deserved. A "Best Commercial Game" category sounds nice and would let the other, smaller AGSers have a chance at the huge cash prize that accompanies every AGS Award (there is a huge cash award, right?). But I'm not sure such a thing could be implemented easily.

Do we split every category into commercial/freeware? That seems cumbersome. Great games like Resonance or Oceanspirit Dennis Losers His Vaginity will always win almost every category that they're in because they're of a significantly higher quality than most of the freeware efforts put out by the other poorer developers inspiring hobbyists. For example, if the top game is split into two groups but the background category isn't, then you'll hear cries of "2034 A.C.'s shoddy backgrounds won't have a chance against Rockstar304's latest majestic backdrop!" I know this because I'm already saying it in anticipation of the 2013 Awards. 

My two cents is that we keep the awards the way they are, I guess, and just accept the fact that AGS has finally gone commercial in a successful way and the bar has been raised much higher than it used to be. It's not like it was in the days of Fatman (commercial) versus Larry Vales (freeware) -- but the games are much larger (and deeper) than they used to be. So I for one welcome our Wadjet Infamous 7 Screens overlords.

Still sucks that the guys running the awards this year totally forgot to mention the Bake Sale. But that's the sort of problem I can drink away... in time... maybe...

[bicilotti]

Nice suggestions Eric, especially the one of paying more attention to the credits.txt of a game.

To derail the thread even more, some times ago I wrote a list for a possible 'reform' of the AGS Awards (basically the idea was to halve the number). I never posted about it because I thought it had 0% chance to be accepted, but since the theme is tangent to the discussion, here it is
Best Game
Best Gameplay
Best Writing
Best Visual Art
Best Music
Lifetime achievement
Best Non-Adv
Best Short Game

And in 2009, Time Gentlemen, Please! (also commercial) took a majority of the awards.

Iirc correctly, TGP took the same number of awards as The Marionette and MC Chronicles.

+1 to Stupot's, Snarky's, Ascovel's and selmiak's posts! +cake to Limpin' post below!

[NickyNyce]

As a freeware game maker, just hearing people comment about the game I made is truly fun and exciting enough.(The good and the bad Critique)

When you release freeware, the 'award' you get is hearing the feedback. Seriously, does a freeware game need to be pat on the back also and told they are the best freeware release of the year at AGS?

I can also understand not having the need for the best soundFX award. This award is slightly on the fence (I do love good soundFX). Having said that, maybe swapping Best soundFX for Best freeware isn't the worst idea if you wanted to keep the same number of awards?

All in all, I don't think you can go wrong with the current setup. Is it really necessary to stretch things like Snarky mentioned, that's the true question?

[LimpingFish]

Gameplay, writing/story, and puzzles, as bicilotti points out, are unrelated to the argument. A commercial game has just as much of a chance of sucking in these areas as any freeware game, and no amount of money or manpower will affect that.

This is strictly a technical awards issue*. It's not entirely unfair to assume that a commercial game with professional voice work has a distinct category-specific advantage over most AGS games, as does a game that employs the talents of the best artists the community has to offer.

On the other hand, not all commercial games may equally excel in these categories either, leaving us with no other option than the extrapolation of the argument to "Commercial" vs "commercial", as team size and budget become issues. Would my hypothetical commercial game, hypothetically made entirely by me, be at a disadvantage to the latest from Wadjet Eye? Should we instead have team-based commercial versus one-man-band commercial?

We could split the awards, but since the number of commercial AGS games released in a year rarely breaks a handful, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the extra effort. Off the top of my head, and if they were ALL added to the database, I can think of four games that were eligible for this years awards, which doesn't seem like nearly enough to spread out over an extra dozen commercial-specific categories. It is enough, however, for a single "Best Commercial Game" award, which would probably be the most likely result of any split.

Since the AGS community is primarily based around free games, it wouldn't be out of the question to see a majority vote for a separate commercial award.



*Or not, as the case may be. It's the AGS Awards, people, not the Alfred Nobels! It's about celebrating a year of games, ALL games, made with AGS, and a fun way to get the community interacting. It's not about arguing the validity of one man's cabbage over another man's turnip. Perspective, yo?

[Snarky]

Gameplay, writing/story, and puzzles, as bicilotti points out, are unrelated to the argument. A commercial game has just as much of a chance of sucking in these areas as any freeware game, and no amount of money or manpower will affect that.

It's impossible to hire talent in these fields? You think if you had a couple of million dollars to spend on the writing and game/puzzle design, you couldn't put together a team able to improve on whatever ideas you initially had?

I also think that even if you don't hire anyone to help you, it's demonstrably possible to improve these aspects of a game through additional effort; e.g. by running lots of playtesting, listening to feedback, and making changes in response. (It's one of the things Dave Gilbert has talked about, how he was able to make a better-received Blackwell title by shifting his investment from art to tweaking the gameplay and writing.) Commercial titles might have an advantage if they can invest more effort, though at the same time a professional studio has to weigh the return-on-investment in a way hobbyists don't.

[LimpingFish]

It's impossible to hire talent in these fields? You think if you had a couple of million dollars to spend on the writing and game/puzzle design, you couldn't put together a team able to improve on whatever ideas you initially had?

I'd be willing to argue that writing is inherently good or bad, regardless of the professionalism/cost of the people involved. I don't think you can throw money at writing in quite the same way you can at graphics or sound. Or you can, but the improvements may be less overtly impressive. "No amount of money..." is a little hyperbolic, though, so it's cheerfully withdrawn.

But, in regards to the original discussion about commercial AGS games potentially having an advantage, I would regard that potential advantage as having a more immediate effect in the graphics and sound-related categories.

Does it warrant changes to the awards? Probably not. Would we even be having this discussion if a non-commercial game had swept the awards? Probably not.

EDIT: Although, this is the third year in a row that a commercial game (or game that was intended to be commercial, in the case of The Journey Down) has taken every major graphics award, and most of the sound awards. But those games also won their fair share of writing/gameplay awards, so I'd be wary of drawing any conclusions from that fact.

[miguel]

I don't believe none of the voters thought that Resonance was not the best game made last year (with AGS) but voted just because. Resonance won because it deserved to win.

Resonance will make money, and I hope it makes enough money for a Resonance 2,3,4... And this simple fact puts Resonance in another league.

Other game makers offer their games. That's something very noble and part of this community. Playing Pleughburg and being able to find out how the game was made in this forums is something I'll forever keep in my heart.

Free games made with AGS for the community and general public should and must get the awards like Best Game of the Year. They are the core of this community and what makes people coming back and staying for years and years. It's also the school for many professionals in the business (programming, art, music, game designing, etc...)

Commercial games made with AGS should be showcased, praised and given all the love we can give, but because of the fantastic AGS Engine. Those games have their own sites and publishing deals. Let's say they are what every person here aims: to be successful in game-making.
So, they've reached a point where competition is with other commercial games. Shouldn't be with freeware games.

My idea here is that every year the main star of the show is the AGS Engine and the people that making games without monetary compensation help to develop AGS and the community.
It's fantastic and everybody is really proud that so many people do succeed in game-making with profits and all,
but what is really something is the guys that stick in the forums every day, helping out others with their graphics, writing, coding, puzzles and so on. There are even planned workshops on different subjects of game-making. This people are the real heroes, the artisans. 

[Tabata]

I am not sure if I can explain it all in English that well, but I am player and a voter who loves to see people winnig awards that make this community so lovely, stay alive and such a nice place to be. That includes the creators of nicely done games and all the helpers in every way.

To me the AGS Award has its roots in this community and those who love to make and share games for fun and free. It's wonderful to see some of the talented ones to be able to go commercial, but that's another step and a differend „stage“ for me. Those made the decision to do the step going to become professional and left the hobby-stage behind (with this game). I like to see someone doing this and I an happy if done successfully â€" it's like to see a child grow up, leave the house and to be proud of what it has become â€" and it will always be welcome at home.

All put a lot of heart and free time in creating their game, innovation for the engine or community and deserve to be noticed. 
Those who offer their games and help for free only have our feedback and are the main reason for me to be awarded with this AGS Award for a very good game or achievement or innovation. If there is a group of talented people who do such a work in several years and offer it for free, then they might get most of the awards, yes â€" but that won't happen such a lot of times. Mostly these games here are done alone or in little teams and they won't be able to do every aspect of a game in perfect or to pay for someone who is able to do so â€" and it's not the goal for a hobby. I'd love to get them an award for the part they did well without being knocked out by a professional (whom I expect to be „better“).

Since most of the creators of the commercials are still part of this family I'd love to let them take part, but in a category that fits to the rule, that the game itself is in the database (not only a link to somewhere else) â€" like a demo. Also because of that I'd like a seperate category for best commercial (that doesn't need to be in the database).

Apart of that I'd like most of the award categories to stay like they are, just a bit tweaking to be able to give it to the one who did that part in person â€" like Mister x for best background art in game y or Mrs. V  for best programming in game w (like it has been said already about to take the credits more into account).

Just a bit of my humble opinion (as far as I was able to explain it â€" hopefully) 

                             

[AGA]

What about having runners up?  The voting system wouldn't need to be changed, we'd just know who came second in all the categories.  This is a lot more varied in this year's awards, as I would expect it was in previous years where one game won many of the awards.

[CaptainD]

What about having runners up?  The voting system wouldn't need to be changed, we'd just know who came second in all the categories.  This is a lot more varied in this year's awards, as I would expect it was in previous years where one game won many of the awards.

Good idea.  Might be the best middle ground solution?

[Eric]

I'd love to see this retrospectively for this year's games, even.

[Igor Hardy]

What about having runners up?  The voting system wouldn't need to be changed, we'd just know who came second in all the categories.  This is a lot more varied in this year's awards, as I would expect it was in previous years where one game won many of the awards.

I like this idea too.

[blueskirt]

I haven't read the entire thread, and I have not nominated nor voted for the AGS competition for at least three years I believe (I can't vote when I haven't played all games and when I don't fully remember the games I played during the first half of the year what can I say) so feel free to take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

But...

Didn't we have this conversation several years ago? Where someone proposed that remakes and/or fan games should get their own category, I am guessing because some were fearing awards swept, and we agreed that, you know, a game is a game is a game, whether it's made by an hobbyist during a couple months, or a professional who puts forty hours a week for a year in their commercial venture, or a passionate who puts five hours a week for eight years in their epic scale game, whether it's made by one person or ten, a game is a game and all games are worthy of competing in all categories, and we didn't need pity prizes and trophies that meant nothing because not every games could compete.

I say no special treatment. It is great to receive recognition among your peers, but:

I still want the AGS award to mean something, it's not just a fun ceremony among us anymore, indie news outlets repost the results and players use these results to decide which games to play or not, it's serious,

Maybe the winners of a sweep truly deserved to win these awards,

And maybe we need to focus less on the winners and more on the nominees, I mean, out of the one hundred or so games released that year, being chosen to be one of the nominees for that year still mean that you're one of the best five or ten games of that year, if that doesn't mean anything, if that ain't recognition among your peers, I don't know what that is.

Just saying.