AGS Awards - categories discussion [results!]

Started by , Sat 15/03/2014 23:37:39

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Radiant

Quote from: Ogon on Wed 26/03/2014 10:12:33
As a composer, I think merging SFX and music makes no sense at all. I don't see why a composer should be barred from getting recognised for their work just because the sound effects guy wasn't doing a good job. It's just a different thing.
Because for most games, it's either the same guy doing the composing and sound effects, or the sound effects are taken from a free public website somewhere. In neither case does it make sense to give a separate award for the sound.

Problem

#41
Although I'm a composer too, I think it does make sense to merge music and sound, and also some of the art awards. What counts for me is the overall experience. The greatest music doesn't help if it's poorly integrated into the game.
We don't need "best composer" or "best artist" awards, the awards should focus on the games.

Question 1:     III, IV, I, II
Question 2-I:   b, a, d, c
Question 2-II:  a, b
Question 2-III: b, d, a, c
Question 2-IV:  a, d, b, c
Question 2-V:   b, a, c
Question 3:     none

Ogon

#42
QuoteBecause for most games, it's either the same guy doing the composing and sound effects, or the sound effects are taken from a free public website somewhere
And the composer's music work should be judged by free sound effects taken from some random website? Makes sense. So what about the cases where the composer is not the person doing the sound too?

QuoteThe greatest music doesn't help if it's poorly integrated into the game.
The integration of the music really is unrelated to sound effects integration IMHO - unless the composer is also the audio guy responsible for the sound effects. However, I disagree that is necessarily the case.

Edit:
QuoteWe don't need "best composer" or "best artist" awards, the awards should focus on the games.
Ok that is a good point. Still, separating music and SFX seems common (e.g. see most film awards). The reason being I guess that often it's not the same person doing both.

dactylopus

Quote from: Ogon on Wed 26/03/2014 10:12:33
As a composer, I think merging SFX and music makes no sense at all. I don't see why a composer should be barred from getting recognised for their work just because the sound effects guy wasn't doing a good job. It's just a different thing.

Similarly, I think merging SFX and voice acting makes no sense either.
I'm also a composer, and I don't see a problem with merging Music and Sound Effects because I see them as being similar aspects of a game's Sound Design.  They are similar enough to fall into the same category, whereas I'll agree that Voice Acting is different enough to be in its own category.

Radiant

#44
Quote from: Ogon on Wed 26/03/2014 12:32:29And the composer's music work should be judged by free sound effects taken from some random website?
If a game's designer is stupid enough to ruin a good composition by taking bad sound effects from some random website, then the game clearly doesn't deserve an award for that. Remember that the awards are for games, not for individual composers. If as a composer, you want to win awards for standalone songs, there's other sites for that.

Quoteunless the composer is also the audio guy responsible for the sound effects. However, I disagree that is necessarily the case.
Please look over the games database and see how often you find a separate credit for sound effects. This may be common in films, but it's pretty rare in AGS games.

Snarky

Ogon, I also think (though this is just my guess) that if the music is great while the sound effects are just mediocre, people are going to focus on the thing that stands out: the great music. As long as the listening experience isn't actively ruined by terrible sound effects, great music by itself goes a long way towards "Great Music & Sound".

(In my opinion, there are few AGS games that really excel when it comes to sound effects anyway, so if the SFX are OK I think a good composer stands an excellent chance of winning a combined category.)

LimpingFish

Question 1:  I, IV, III, II.
(A single category: "Best Commercial Game". It's a long-held opinion.)

Question 2-I:  d,c,b,a.
(None of the categories can be comfortably combined in a way I'd be happy with. Maybe voice and sound fx...at a stretch.)

Question 2-II:  a,b
(Yes, I'd like to see these combined.)

Question 2-III:  d,a,b,c
(Or keep Backgrounds and Characters, and lose Animation?)

Question 2-IV:  b,a,d,c
(Never really took much notice of the puzzle award.)

Question 2-V:  a,b,c
(Hmm. My gut says to drop them.)

Question 3:  none
(Nothing from that list leaps out as being particularly necessary.)

Steam: LimpingFish
PSN: LFishRoller
XB: TheActualLimpingFish
Spotify: LimpingFish

Andail


    Should we separate commercial games from freeware games? If so, how?
           Yes, have a "Best Freeware" reserved to freeware games.

   
    Should we trim the awards categories? We could... (non-exclusive)
        ...merge Music/SFX/Voice into Best Music&Sound.

        ...merge Original Story/Dialogue into Best Writing.
            Yes.

        ...merge ________ into Best Artwork:
         
            Backgrounds/Character-Art into Best Artwork (leave Animation alone).
        I think there should be one Backgrounds and one Sprites/animations, basically.         

        ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
            forget it! Drop Best Gameplay and leave Best Puzzles intact!

            Leave things as they are.

    Should we add more categories?
        No.

Radiant

Since I hadn't written this earlier, I think the following would be good additions to the awards.


  • Best Resource. This was traditionally an AGS award, and given how many modules and plugins we get these days, we should have it back.
  • Best Game in Communal Series. I would like to recognize the effort put into the OSD, RON, and MMM 'verses, I beleive they're underappreciated in the awards.
  • Best Experimental Game. I'm fond of games that try something different. We'd have to word it carefully so that the big classic-style adventures we get each year don't qualify for this one.
  • Best Newcomer. Assuming we can find a definition that's fair and unambiguous.

bicilotti

Thanks voters, I ductaped together a program to compute outcomes.
Regarding preferences, I am a bit unsure about Snarky & Ghost on new categories (is that a vote or just a proposal?).
Keep voting!

selmiak

Q1: I, III, IV, II
if there are enough commercial games a year II should be on top)

Q2-I: d
Q2-II: b
Q2-III: d (c sounds interesting but also confusing ;))
Q2-IV: d
Q2-V: d
basically: Leave the versatility

Q3: Best Horror, Comedy, Drama, Science Fiction, Experimental Game (yay for best of a catergory, but I would rather make this depended on the games a year and how many for a category were nominated)
Best Newcomer
Best Puzzle (single Puzzle)
Best Game in Communal Series* (maybe, make that a 50% vote)
Voice Actor (single)

Snarky

#51
Quote from: bicilotti on Wed 02/04/2014 20:05:42
Thanks voters, I ductaped together a program to compute outcomes.
Regarding preferences, I am a bit unsure about Snarky & Ghost on new categories (is that a vote or just a proposal?).
Keep voting!

I was intending to hold off on voting for new categories until the other issues were settled.

But if it has to be decided in one go, you can just put me as a Yes for everything, assuming you're still going by the 50+% majority rule idea. OTOH, if you're just going to pick the top-ranked ones, my top priorities would be:

Best Comedy
Best Drama
Best Communal Series Entry
Best Resource
Best Newcomer*
Best Single Puzzle (but only if "Best Puzzles" goes away)

* Actually, rather than "Best Newcomer" (which sounds like a newbie forum member appreciation award), I'd call it something like "Best Debut Game" or "Breakthrough of the Year", depending on exactly how we want to limit it. I would propose to define it as something like...

Best Debut Game: "Best AGS game created largely by a game maker (or group of game makers) who has not previously been a major contributor to a substantial released game."
Breakthrough of the Year: "Best AGS game created largely by a game maker (or group of game makers) who has not previously made a game of comparable ambition."

Baron

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 03/04/2014 11:22:19
Best Debut Game: "Best AGS game created largely by a game maker (or group of game makers) who has not previously been a major contributor to a substantial released game."
Breakthrough of the Year: "Best AGS game created largely by a game maker (or group of game makers) who has not previously made a game of comparable ambition."

+1 to this.

bicilotti

Ok, it sees we got all the votes we could get.
I am closing this in three days.

Esseb

#54
I'm not sure I should have any say in this since I haven't voted in the AGS awards for years, but then again, the reason I haven't is because every year I make an effort to do so, only to give up halfway down the list, trying to remember if game A or B had the better dialogue or story.

So:

Q1: I, IV, II, III

Q2 I: a, b, c, d
Q2 II: a, b
Q2 III: a, b, c, d
Q2 IV: a, b, d, c
Q2 V: b, a, c


Edit: bicilotti, what would you have done for numerals if there had been subquestions to any of the questions in section 2?

bicilotti

Quote from: Esseb on Mon 21/04/2014 20:20:31
Edit: bicilotti, what would you have done for numerals if there had been subquestions to any of the questions in section 2?

:P Alwyas had a thing for these!

Last 48 hours to cast your preference, vote now!

Wyz

Question 1. I II IV III
I've always seen the awards as an encouragement for beginning developers as more professional game developers (most likely commercial) can draw enough attention for bigger award ceremonies. Not that I don't respect the effort put in these games but the awards are often crowed by one big title which is usually already receiving lots of attention. I'd rather have the lime light go to a developer not known very well outside the community since it is a community awards ceremony to begin with. Also we should no take the awards so seriously; it not like there are cash prices or you get to bring home a statue. :P

Question 2. I d c b a
These are very different things
Question 2. II b a
Dialog is more about the use of language and story is more about what it is about.
Question 2. III c d a b
Most animations are character animations and it's hard for me how I perceive characters to rate them as two separate things.
Question 2. IV d a b c
Although puzzles are a subset of gameplay since we are an adventure game community it can't hurt to take puzzle as a specialized category since puzzles serve a special purpose in the genre. It is almost impossible to rate best programming for games that are closed source (which is almost all of them). It'd change this to best module/plugin or something.
Question 2. V b a c
This awards should go to the character with the most personality, a character that truly stands out (whether we get to control them or not). If it always goes to the main character of the most popular game it might as well be dropped.

Question 3.
I like the "best puzzle" idea, maybe we can drop the plural in "best puzzles" to make it more specific.
I also like "best newcomer"; it might draw in some competition among the newcomers.  ;)
Well as I said above: "best module/plugin" would be a better option then best programming.
I also like "best world/setting" although that might coincident a bit with "best story".
And lastly bring back the Penis awards.  :=
Life is like an adventure without the pixel hunts.

bicilotti

Executive summary 

These are the results for the poll

  • Should we separate commercial games from freeware games? If so, how?
    Yes, have a "Best Freeware" reserved to freeware games.


  • Should we trim the awards categories? We could... (non-exclusive)

    • ...merge ________ into Best Music&Sound:
      Music/SFX into Best Music&Sound (leave Voice-Acting alone).
    • ...merge Original Story/Dialogue into Best Writing.
      Yes.
    • ...merge ________ into Best Artwork:
      Leave things as they are.
    • ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
      Leave things as they are.
    • ...drop best Player Character/Non-Player Character:
      merge them in Best Character (whether Player controlled or else)
  • Should we add more categories?
        No category reached >50%

and this is what the Awards 2014 will look like.


Gory details

I wrote a little program in Haskell to calculate the outcome.
I paste the output so you check yourself how votes have been redistributed in the instant runoff.

Thanks everyone for participating-voting in this!

Radiant

Thank you for doing this, Bici!

However, may I point out one detail; Andail wrote the following,
Quote from: Andail on Mon 31/03/2014 06:50:39
        ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
            forget it! Drop Best Gameplay and leave Best Puzzles intact!

            Leave things as they are.
which is a preference for options C and D, not just a preference for C. So in your code, Andail should have "(4, [c,d])" rather than "(4, [c])". I'm not sure if that changes anything but perhaps you could tweak this and run it again please?

bicilotti

Quote from: Radiant on Thu 24/04/2014 19:56:03
Thank you for doing this, Bici!

However, may I point out one detail; Andail wrote the following,
Quote from: Andail on Mon 31/03/2014 06:50:39
        ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
            forget it! Drop Best Gameplay and leave Best Puzzles intact!

            Leave things as they are.
which is a preference for options C and D, not just a preference for C. So in your code, Andail should have "(4, [c,d])" rather than "(4, [c])". I'm not sure if that changes anything but perhaps you could tweak this and run it again please?


I interpreted that last "Leave things as they are." as the answer to question 2.V (which otherwise would have been left blank). The vote *is* indeed significant though, so I PM'd our cultured Man of Mystery to shed light on the matter!

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