Point and Clicks and more

Started by AnasAbdin, Sat 05/07/2014 22:09:59

Previous topic - Next topic

AnasAbdin

Not sure if this is discussed before. For diversity, I like to add alternative solutions to some of the puzzles in my projects. Sometimes the alternative solutions use the player's skills handling the mouse! (laugh) For instance, in my first game, the player has to grab tightly into a dent to avoid being sucked in space from a leak in a spaceship. The player has to hold the mouse button down until all the atmosphere is sucked out (mimicking a tight grab)... I am working with this concept in Epoch. I just finished a part where the player is hanging to a horizontal pipe and tries to hop his way to safety. A single click makes the player hop one step. If the mouse wasn't clicked for enough time he would slip and fall, and if the time between two clicks is short the player would slip too. So it is a combination of clicking times that the player has to develop. Of course this is not obligatory since there are other ways to reach the goal without using "clicking tricks".



Please let me know what you think about adding these ideas in an adventure game and whether it adds or ruins the idea of "Point and Click" games.

CaptainD

It would probably work if it was relatively clear that there was another way to solve this puzzle if the player had tried enough times to start getting really frustrated with it.  Having the variety is good, but I fear that if players didn't like the section in question and didn't realise there was an alternative, they may give up and stop playing.  (Of course, they'd probably look up the solution on the internet eventually, but...)
 

Cassiebsg

I'm with CaptainD on this one.
Personally I hate action on my adventure games (and I never really liked platform games, even though I played my fair share of them). That was the only thing I never liked (and was annoyed by) with Sierra games. :( And not sure how to make it clear to the player that "there's another way to solve this".

But love the screen and the nice "danger feel" to the situation. :)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Tabata

I think it's like with those mini games â€" as long as you get the chance to skip it (after some fails there could be the option to do so) it's okay for me.
Even if it will „cost“ something â€" for those players who hate it and don't like to try anymore, it will be okay loosing some points or items to be able to go on in the game.
For the others it will enrich the gameplay to find out the trick.

Or you could come up with a tip about the existance of an alternate way to reach the goal after some fails and ask the player if he want's to try again or search for that instead.

Secret Fawful

#4
Don't listen to these guys. They just hate change. I applaud you for trying something different. All you need is a tutorial segment where you explain the mechanic to the player through the game, and they'll get the idea. Teach the player your mechanic, then use it for EVERYTHING, and you'll have a unique game on your hands. We're on a forum where people don't add features to AGS because "there's no guarantee anyone would use this incredibly unique and useful feature to do something new", so don't listen to these people.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. You're going to keep a designer from trying something new because it makes YOU uncomfortable.

Cassiebsg

No, doesn't make me uncomfortable, nor did I said not to do it. I genuinely HATE action in my Adventure games. If I want action, I get an action game, if I want a platformer I get a platformer, and if I want a mixed game I get a mixed game!
And for me games, like Tomb Rider are not Adventure games but are action/adventure games instead. Nothing wrong with those, but I like games labeled right, so I know what I'm getting.

AnasAbdin, asked about opinions about this, and I gave mine. It's valid for me, and guess to some others too. But everyone is different and some love these bits of action in their games.
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Secret Fawful

#6
It's not fucking action game gameplay! It's a way to use the mouse to interact with the environment! Full Throttle did action scenes in adventure games without it being action, for fucks sakes, and that was all mouse-controlled!

I don't get how people don't think telling a designer not to do a completely unique mechanic like this is why so many are left complaining that every game is the same. It's like I'm arguing with corporate board members here.

Snarky

Chill, Fawful. No one has told him not to do it, and most of the comments have been suggestions for how to make the idea work as well as possible. He did ask what people thought, so attempting to censor feedback to just include people who love this kind of thing would be counter-productive.

Personally I've always liked those moments in adventure games where you have to think outside the box and interact more directly (whether that's stamping on the loose plank to scare the seagull in MI1, the bits in Full Throttle, Fahrenheit), as well as tricksy things with the interface (like the DS games where you have to blow in the microphone, or close and reopen the console to achieve certain actions), so the idea sounds good to me. I do think execution is really important, though, because if it's not well presented it could be really annoying.

Cassiebsg

Wow
Do you feel offended by this? If not seems so.

Frankly I remember having Full Throttle , but can't remember ever finishing it...
Mouse click skills, still is action IMHO. But as I said, that's me! I'm probably not even the target for this game, so am sure my reasoning is worth crap...
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

AnasAbdin

All your opinions are valuable to me ;-D That's why I'm giving options when featuring such an 'action' technique in an adventure game. A little salt on hot cocoa is great but if you don't want salt then it's okay... it's an inventory item you don't need to use :P

I totally agree with Tabata on skip-able mini games. However my example above is not a mini game. It's an alternative 'physical' way to reach a goal when the player is not able to solve it 'mentally'. More like muscles vs. mind...

Of course as CaptainD and you all mentioned, the game hints 'beautifully' that alternative solutions can be done.
Secret Fawful could be a little hard on you guys but he's still got a point, we're not tailoring game based on others liking (nod)

Edit for the two more replies while I was typing...
Secret Fawful please chill down  :)
Snarky: I agree with you 100%. It's fun as long as it's well executed  (nod)

Secret Fawful

I'm angry and offended because I see this sort of sentiment around here all the time. Not just in the Critics Lounge, but in the Modules area, and the Engine development areas, as well. Also the Programming questions areas. This is the same board where a guy straight-up YELLED at a newbie to AGS because he wanted to do something unique with the engine and the guy who was supposed to be helping the newbie had a pet peeve about new members trying to do things outside their own programming expertise.

So no, I don't see this as a place constructive to new, unique ideas that think outside the box. What I see are people going "mmmmm......not so sure about that. Seems too risky. Seems too out there. Might want to just do what you know works." And that bothers me a lot. I know I'm being more vitriolic about it than I should be, but this is a result of pent-up frustration at the board itself.

AnasAbdin

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Sun 06/07/2014 20:37:01so am sure my reasoning is worth crap...

You are wrong (wrong)

Secret Fawful take it easy :) We make games based on our imaginations and creativity, this doesn't mean we can't share ideas and opinions with our great community here.

Secret Fawful

Okay. Cassie, I'm sorry for making you think your reasoning is crap. I just disagree with you, that's all. I'm a naturally angry, passionate person. It's not a personal thing to me. And I tend to see forums as one big cohesive whole where everyone tends to agree with each other instead of a place full of individuals.

Snarky

Quote from: Secret Fawful on Sun 06/07/2014 20:42:07
I'm angry and offended because I see this sort of sentiment around here all the time. Not just in the Critics Lounge, but in the Modules area, and the Engine development areas, as well. Also the Programming questions areas. This is the same board where a guy straight-up YELLED at a newbie to AGS because he wanted to do something unique with the engine and the guy who was supposed to be helping the newbie had a pet peeve about new members trying to do things outside their own programming expertise.

And you're doing your bit to change the culture of negativity (as you perceive it) by... insulting and yelling at people you disagree with. Give me a fucking break!

(Besides, if the incident with the newbie is the one I'm thinking of, the way I remember it the person attacking him got told off by moderators and may even have incurred an official warning or temp ban. So don't try to present it as sanctioned forum behavior.)

Secret Fawful

#14
I'm not presenting it as sanctioned forum behavior. I'm presenting it as a thing that happens in this forum somewhat frequently, and a thing that I'm extremely tired of. I didn't point a finger at the management of the board in any way, shape, or form, nor am I.

I got angry and fed up, and I made a post about it. Nobody gives a fuck for my opinion, and I'm not under any illusions that they do. Although, I probably did shout a bit louder because I was scared that the OP would just give up on his idea. I know if I started the topic and got those responses, I would have. I'll apologize, and just drop it, because it seems like you're all WAY angrier than I am at me for piping up in my own dumb way. I'm just creating too much negativity in here, so I'll let it go and bow out. I sincerely apologize.

dactylopus

I can appreciate a well integrated action sequence in an adventure game, especially with alternative solutions.  I'm a big fan of games like the Quest for Glory series, which include some action-based combat and puzzles, so action never felt too foreign to me in adventures.  The situation you've created in your game looks to fit well into the story and environment, and doesn't sound like a complicated mechanic.

I understand that some people are purists of adventure games, and I think that most adventures adhere to the traditional structure.  It's refreshing to see something that's a little different.

straydogstrut

I like games that include physical interactions like this. The Dream Machine had a section where you rifled through a box of books by dragging them aside with the mouse. I do find mouse-clicks quite cumbersome for something like this though. What about a key press (space)?

My interpretation of your example above is that the player would need to click the mouse at certain intervals, not too quickly and not too far apart, to make the main character monkey-swing along the pipe. This reminds me a bit of those mini games where you have to hit a key while a moving target is within two bounds.

I'm not a fan of GUI's breaking the immersion so would suggest the mechanic is taught through the character animations. What about a combination of two keys to cause the character to 'swing' and grab the pipe hand over hand. The key press could initiate the swing or be timed to coincide with the grab. Perhaps a fumble animation could teach the player that they're pressing too quickly or sweating profusely when they're about to lose their grip because of moving two slowly.

CaptainD

Quote from: AnasAbdin on Sat 05/07/2014 22:09:59
Please let me know what you think about adding these ideas in an adventure game and whether it adds or ruins the idea of "Point and Click" games.

Anas asked what people thought, and people gave him an answer on their personal viewpoint.  I really don't see what the problem is.
 

AnasAbdin

Quote from: Secret Fawful on Sun 06/07/2014 21:24:08Nobody gives a fuck for my opinion, and I'm not under any illusions that they do. Although, I probably did shout a bit louder because I was scared that the OP would just give up on his idea. I know if I started the topic and got those responses, I would have. I'll apologize, and just drop it, because it seems like you're all WAY angrier than I am at me for piping up in my own dumb way. I'm just creating too much negativity in here, so I'll let it go and bow out. I sincerely apologize.

I only asked for opinions and one of the great opinions I got was yours too :) And don't worry I won't give up my ideas that easy! No one is angry here we're only discussing ideas to make great games.

dactylopus: thanks :)

straydogstrut: I'm not sure yet if I'll use keyboard input in the game. The GUI may go for consideration since it is used here for code testing.

Quote from: CaptainD on Sun 06/07/2014 23:37:48Anas asked what people thought, and people gave him an answer on their personal viewpoint.  I really don't see what the problem is.

There are no problems ;-D and thanks to everybody for all your opinions.

NickyNyce

Here's an idea about the mechanic. How about left and right clicking alternatively to cross the pipe(Left hand, right hand). If you can make it so that if the player doesn't do this, the animation or the character kind of tells the player that he did it wrong... for instance...The character says "I have two left hands or something like that when he falls".

I myself wouldn't call this an action sequence. So long as you don't have to do it very fast.

But now we get to the point where, how much hand holding do you want to give the player. Too little and it could get frustrating to figure out. But if you have to tell the player exactly what to do, it kind of defeats the purpose. Why not just jump on the pipe with interact and he climbs across by himself. There is a fine line between them, but if you find it, I think it's a good idea.

AnasAbdin

I like your idea NickyNyce :) thanks!
My current plan is while the player is hanging, when the cursor is on his left it'll turn into a left arrow and vice versa. So it'll only be a single left click to perform a hop.

CaptainD

Quote from: AnasAbdin on Mon 07/07/2014 13:28:19
My current plan is while the player is hanging, when the cursor is on his left it'll turn into a left arrow and vice versa. So it'll only be a single left click to perform a hop.

That sounds good.

For the record I'm really not against mini-games in adventure games as long as they are well executed.  The driving section and throwing watermelons out of the plane in Lost Horizon are pretty good examples.
   
 

Adeel

#22
Like the majority of the people here, my opinion is that little bits of action in the adventure games add some extra fun, provided they aren't too hard. Take Sam and Max Series' driving mini games for example. They are not too hard to play and hence, so much fun.

Execution is the key here. How they are executed will what make or ruin your game, Anas. :)

Snarky

One possible way to ease players into it (though it would take some modification of the BG) would be to start the swinging over a platform, so if the player doesn't get it right to begin with the character will just land safely. After the first couple of swings he'd be away from the platform, and failure would mean death.

There are lots of different possibilities depending on just what experience you want to make it.

AnasAbdin

Thank Adeel.
Snarky you're correct. There is a platform where the player's first jump starts. And if the player slips while he's over it or even over the goal point he falls right on the platform safely ;)

Cassiebsg

Been thinking about this, and if there are enough of these "hand ons" approach/alternative and it's very clear to the player that he can solve the problem by "hands on" or "brain on", you might just grab some players that don't normally like/play Adventure games, cause they don't like the puzzling solving.
You might just grab those that only want to puzzle solve, those who like puzzling with a bit of action and those that just want action and no puzzling (could be fun to get passed this by those type of players, if you know any). Of course, implementing such a thing, would mean a lot more work for you.

But it's nice food for thought. :)
I might just implement such alternative ways, into my BSG game, when I get started with it. (I will definitely keep this in mind, and maybe I end up with 3 to 4 different ways of solving a situation/puzzle, instead of 2 to 3). ;)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

AnasAbdin

Well Cassiebsg I'm glad you're thinking about this more :-D It wasn't my intention to implement this technique "hands/brains on" all game long! It will appear a few times in the game thought.

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Tue 08/07/2014 20:25:05Of course, implementing such a thing, would mean a lot more work for you.

Let the coding begin (nod)

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk