Help with portrait

Started by Lasca, Tue 07/04/2015 10:58:37

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Lasca

So, I'm not very used to doing portraits, and the angle of this head is giving me some problems. I'd be happy to get suggestions on how to improve the structure of the face; the placement of the eyes, size of them, the construction of the lips, the angle of the nose, the overall structure of the head. Is there too much forehead? To little?
Anyway, this is still in the early stages, so my focus right now is making her look less punched in the face ;)
Actually the thing I've found the hardest is to construct her eyes in this angle.
So please, give me all you got ;)



edit 14:39

ok so already made an edit of my own:


Andail

Hello Lasca,
I think your portrait looks mostly fine, in terms of anatomy, proportions and perspective. Shadows and highlights are mostly correct, in regards of those same criteria.
The only adjustments I'd make would be to soften her nose a bit (women tend to have a more curved nasal ridge).

It also strikes me as a typical exercise portrait, in the sense that it's rather plain and generic. If you want to make a more dynamic, interesting portrait we can discuss that too!



Lasca

QuoteThe only adjustments I'd make would be to soften her nose a bit (women tend to have a more curved nasal ridge).
The nose does look a little dull, so I'll definitely take a look at it. Thanks!

QuoteIt also strikes me as a typical exercise portrait, in the sense that it's rather plain and generic. If you want to make a more dynamic, interesting portrait we can discuss that too!

Well dynamic and interesting does sound more fun than plain and generic, so please do!
In what sense do you experience it as plain? Expression and form? Or do you mean colour and light? I am planning to put a backlight on her, but I wanted to be sure on the construction before going into polish.

Andail

I couldn't really tell if your face is supposed to be old, or if it was sloppy brush work that made her skin look a little aged...

Anyhow, based on the presumption that she's supposed to be fairly young, here's a start:


I find that many beginners tend to use various brushes and let the strokes be visible even though there's no real plan or thought behind the brush work. If you want to have visible brush strokes, go for a specific brush and a certain width and stick to that; there's a reason we didn't see brush strokes until the 19th century's impressionism - it's simply very hard to do it right. In the meantime, go for soft, smooth brushes.

I probably went a bit too far with this edit, but it's hard to stop painting once you've started!

Please ask if there's anything you wonder about, I might return later to explain a few things.

Snarky

#4
Quote from: Andail on Tue 07/04/2015 17:33:44
there's a reason we didn't see brush strokes until the 19th century's impressionism

Kind of an off-topic quibble, but that's just not true. While faces in paintings from the Renaissance and later often look a bit airbrushed, you can distinctly make out very expressive brush work in many portrait paintings and faces by Rembrandt, Goya, Delacroix, El Greco, Frans Hals and others who predate the impressionists by a comfortable margin. And in backgrounds and landscape painting (e.g. Constable, Turner), visible brush strokes were more the rule than the exception. Of course, these artists were geniuses, and often the best examples of hard, rough brush strokes are from their later works, so they're a daunting precedent.

Grok



Going from your edited picture I've moved nose and mouth a bit to the right and done some small reshaping of eyes, eyebrows and mouth with a smear tool. And some general smoothing of checks and brow.

Lasca

@Andail

Thanks for doing the edit! I will definitely be going for a "smoother" texture when I'm doing a later rendering. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough that this is still a sketch, which is the explanation for the "sloppy brush work". I usually prefer to build the shape before rendering more vivid light and shadow, and adding details. Perhaps this is a more time consuming approach, but for me it makes me more comfortable, since I have to use less imagination ;) But I can assure you I have more plans for this. I don not intend to let the background show through her forehead ;)

Quotego for a specific brush and a certain width and stick to that
This is one at 98% the same brush, although sometimes turned, and width adjusted by tablet pressure. I would also argue there there is plan and thought behind the brushwork, however that doesn't insure that it shines through ;)

@Grok
Thanks for the paintover! Moving the mouth and nose a bit more is probably a good idea!

miguel

I'm with Snarky on this, Andail's version looks...pretty, there's no texture and that's what happens when you use one single brush to cover all of the face, it's like she has cosmetics applied. Try to "sculp" with your brushes very loosely at first and find the tones you want early on, specially when there's a clear light direction onto her. She's a woman and her chin, lips and well all of the mouth section must be revitalized really, it's dull and not interesting.

Working on a RON game!!!!!

Monsieur OUXX

The original drawings look like she's 35 or 40. Andail's edit makes her look like she is between 20 and 30.
 

Andail

Snarky, you're absolutely right!
I threw that comment out very carelessly, and as you say, artists have painted with clearly visible brush strokes before the 19th century. My point was, either way, that doing so requires a lot from your painting technique.

Not that it matters a lot, since Lasca's picture was more of a sketch than a finished painting anyways...

And now that I look back at my own edit I don't really think it's a very good paint-over, so I don't know what I'm doing here, frankly :)

I'll come back with a better edit at one point!

Lasca

@Andail: Well, you made me realise that I will probably need to add more warmth and saturation then I had planned, and that I have to be aware of what age she's turning out. So I'd say you were very much helpful!

Eric

Quote from: Lasca on Tue 07/04/2015 10:58:37Actually the thing I've found the hardest is to construct her eyes in this angle.

Eyes in three quarter are in perspective! Draw perspective lines from the front-most eye and it'll be easier.

Lasca



QuoteEyes in three quarter are in perspective! Draw perspective lines from the front-most eye and it'll be easier.

Interesting! However get it to a 100 percent. Do you think you could demonstrate the lines on the portrait?

SilverSpook

#13
Looks great to me!

Kind of tangential but possibly relevant: try bumping up the contrast a bit, or just pretend a fifty watt bulb materialized somewhere, unless you're going for the shadowy look.  I like to think about the "drama chakras" (eye corners, uni-brow area, lip corners), and in terms of where light is hitting, and try to convey the character first through these key points.  If you get that flippant smirk or the smoky bemused eyes right, I find the rest of the face just kind of paints itself, it just clicks like Lego.  And really, if you get the character across, the mid-highlight on the zygomatic bone or the exact position/size of the upper lip matter not so much.  If I get stuck, I go Google-fu Bruce Willis and get the three-quarter smile, or Michelle Rodriguez' tuff-chick glower for reference.  They'll also help with the proportion problems.

But again, I find when my paintings start feeling like the visual equivalent of stale oatmeal and I want to fly the Wacom out the window, just jazzing up the spectral width, or even running a "sharpen" filter over it tends to spice things up and make details pop. 

Lasca

@SilverSpook

Thanks spook, and you're absolutely right. I need to put less focus on making it "right" and more on making it expressive. Thanks for the reminder!

Lasca

Ok. Here's where I am with this now:



Still haven't really started working on her hair and brows. And still feel like there's something not right with the eyes. But we're coming along on the skin tone. Perhaps she still looks a bit old. Could also be it's just a lack of make up. Makes you think, don't it. ;)

Ykni

Hi Lasca. That looks much better already. The main thing that is bothering me about the eyes are the eyelashes. It's always difficult to get them right I usually just add a line above the eye that's thin in the inner corner and get's wider towards the outer corner. From that line I draw a few lashes in the outer corner. On the bottom of the eye I draw two lines, a skin colored line against the eye and a darker line for the lashes against that first line. Because it's difficult to explain here is an example of what I mean.
To give the eyes some depth you could add some shade just below the top eyelid and add some bright shade of brown in the iris.
The shape of the left eye is probably still a bit off. I think the inner corner is a bit too wide, or perhaps it needs a bit more shade in the corner. Did you use a reference picture to draw this portrait? If you did you could just measure the size and placement of the eyes in order to study the face in more detail.

Lasca

Thanks ykni! I'll definitely try out your technique with the lashes! Btw that portrait of yours is really beautiful!
Your right that the shape of the left eye still is a bit bodged. I think I have to move down the eye a bit. And darken the inner corner, like you suggested.  The portrait is originally "inspired" by a photo, but I've moved away quite a bit from that picture, and now I'm just winging it ;) thanks for your help!!

Lasca

Updated this and tried to do the eyelash thing. It looks better, but the left is still a bit strange. I think it's the iris. Ah well, probably time to move on to the hair so I don't end up wasting the rest of my life rubbing on that eye.


Ykni

I found this image that might help with figuring out what's wrong with the left eye.




When I compare your portrait to the reference drawings in the picture above I think that there might be a bit too much face showing on the outside of the left eye.

I think you are very brave to draw a portrait without a reference picture, that is a very difficult thing to do. Can't wait to see it finished.

Lasca

That's a great picture. Thanks!

QuoteI think you are very brave to draw a portrait without a reference picture, that is a very difficult thing to do.

Thank you! However. that's not completely true. I use a lot of different reference pictures and mash them up. Which might be my problem ;)
If you (or anyone else) has a good tips on painting hair, I would be really grateful. Hair is really not my forte.

SilverSpook

#21
Quotelasca: Ah well, probably time to move on to the hair so I don't end up wasting the rest of my life rubbing on that eye.

I super get you on this!  I tend to micromanage every iota of art detail.  It's like a splinter in my mind if something's off. (Forgive my CMRD: Compulsive Matrix Reference Disorder)

The mantra I use to keep from popping open Photoshop again to retouch that damned wrinkle when I'm supposed to be doing my TPS reports at work is, "No one cares about this gross abomination against all that is Sacred to Art!  it's all in your head!"

Because most of the time, it is.  Most players are not art critics, and probably won't even notice.  They are more likely to alt-F4 or left-swipe, or whatever shit they do to force-close nowadays due to a flat story, boring gameplay, uncompelling characters, or uninteresting art style.  Worry about the hole in the ship's hyperdrive, rather than the color of the coffee cups in the mess hall.  Primordia is if not the, at least near the apex of what Lucasian p-n-c adventure games can be.



Imagine if Primordia artist Victor Pflug let his inner art-Nazi tell himself, "What in the seven hells was I thinking?!?!  The shape of his left iris is HORRIBLE!"



"Oh God, this is a disaster!  It looks like a German wax museum in the middle of the Dresden Firebombing!  Am I genetically preprogrammed to be incapable of drawing straight lines!?}

Thank God, (or Man, if you're Horatio, the oblong-eyed protagonist), Victor didn't let his inner editor shut him down, or let him waste countless hours scrubbing and redrawing and redoing Horatio's eye.

(Full disclosure: Wadjet Eye is not paying me for this plug, I truly think Primordia is one of the greatest pieces of game art out there.)

I think it was Leo Dicaprio (or was it Brad Pitt?  I think it was both), who said, "I cannot watch any of my own films, cause all I see are the mistakes, how good it could've been".  Yet these are award-winning guys, with real talent.  The film (or game) will always be better in your head.

All of that is a convoluted but hopefully more illustrative way to say, "It's ok to let the eye go.  The world, and your game, will not end." 

Take your mistakes and turn them into strokes of genius.  Remember, the audience doesn't know the difference!

(/rant)


For some hair advice: get a wide brush and kind of lay down the darkest color.  Then up the brightness a bit, and go in with a slightly narrower brush.   Again, I'd recommend throwing some more light in there, somewhere.  Once you know where the light is coming from, add some near-white highlights in the locks that face the light source.  Curly hair is a bit more tricky, but the same applies with the brush-width advice.

Good luck!  You got this!


Lasca

Thanks SilverSpook. You're absolutely right. And I now I'm compulsive. But I guess in this case perhaps it serve something, since this is also a learning experience. Bur you're right. That perfect eye is (mostly) not what makes your heart go boom.
So this is the last change:



Perhaps I'll go back to the eyes when I've finished the rest ;) But now, let them go! Sorry also for making so many updates with small changes. Hopefully it does something good for someone.
Now on to the hair! (and I will throw more light in, I promise ;) )

SilverSpook

#23
Definitely looks better!  Glad you shone some light on the subject! :D 

Remember, darker skin makes for brighter highlights, in my experience.  White / caucasian faces are so bright already that there's less contrast -- you don't really see the bright spots on the cheeks / nose cause it's... whitewashed.  There's a tendency to just make everything darker in African portraits, but that can result in the picture just looking light the lighting is really dim. 

For example:





Notice how you can really see the light, near-white parts on the darker girl's cheeks, whereas you can barely see anything on the white girl's?  Mostly you just see her reddish blush.

Ykni

That looks great Lasca. As for tips on how to paint hair. I don't know what kind of program you are using to paint with. I do most of my work with Artrage, which let's me blend my paint on canvas. This helps getting lots of natural looking color variation with a single brushstroke. Corel painter can probably do the same, I'm not sure if there are other paint programs that can do this as well.
But that's my trick with the hair, start using dark colors and work toward lighter colors like SilverSpook said. Work wet in wet to get the rich variation in color.

Mandle

For me the left eye seems to be looking a little more upwards than the right but I think that is still fine as some people's eyes look that way in real life...

You could correct this or just move forwards with that look...I would personally just move forwards as it looks awesome already and it adds some character...

Eric

Quote from: Ykni on Thu 30/04/2015 18:11:19
I found this image that might help with figuring out what's wrong with the left eye.

Sorry I forgot to check back in to provide an example of what I was talking about. Here's Andrew Loomis demonstrating. Imagine the the head inside a cube, and it helps you plan the perspective:



Also, if you want to improve in general, read the Andrew Loomis books!

Mathias

James Gurney have written a great book about color and light theory, named Color and Light that is absolutely Amazing if you're interested in the subect. In regards of painting faces or portraits you rarely see the same uniform Brown or pink tones all over the face but rather yellow or white brows, red tones on cheeks and nose (I see you have some in there) and blue, green or grey tones on the chin. Using that (depending on the light in your portrait) will make it appear slihgtly more alive and natural.

You could check out this link for reference:
Link to facial colorzones.

Apart from my comment I think you've a long way and it looks really nice!

Lasca

@eric Thanks! I'm actually reading loomis "figure drawing" atm. Many insights and much learning to be made!

@Mathias Color and Light is great! I read it a couple of months ago and must recommend it to everyone. And thank you for reminding me of it, I'll go back to it immediately!
Thanks!

Lasca

Ok, so I decided to quit messing around with this in hd. I resized it to fit the the game and worked it to some kind of finish. The creator of the game to which this portrait is being made wanted to keep the lighting very neutral, so I didn't do many dramatic effects. Anyway. I still feel like she looks just a bit too masculine, although I don't feel like she has too look like a model. I want her to be more of an actual person. But if anyone has got any tips for feminizing her just a bit, let me know. And all other critique is welcome! I want to finish this now and I want it to look good, so just lay it on me. Thanks in advance! And oh, hair is difficult. Also stylewise. So please critique.
/Lasca

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/fCERubm.png[/imgzoom]

Frikker

the thing that stands out to me most is that the hairline looks as if it starts too far back. If you look at the curve profile of her forehead on the right, it curves round almost to the top of the head before the hair starts, suggesting that her hairline starts almost on top of her head. If I try to imagine her from a side view I think it wouldn't look right.
Also maybe make her cheekbones less prominent and her nose slighly narrower/pointy-er for maximum feminism. But personally i think shes pretty feminine anyway, so not too much.

Either that or give her a make-up bag and 6 hours in the bathroom like most girls (laugh)

Ykni

#31
Wow she turned out very well. I don't think she looks masculine tbh. Perhaps raising her cheekbones a bit would make her look more girlish. A bit like this, where the cheekbone starts directly under the eye.

Couldn't resist trying how the higher cheekbones would look like

[imgzoom]http://i59.tinypic.com/mbn6dz.png[/imgzoom]

Perhaps I did a bit too much on the left cheekbone, but I think it works to make her look a bit more girlish. Also lowered the hairline a bit like Mathias suggested. Adding a bit of hair 'behind' her forehead seems to soften her looks.

Lasca

Thanks to both of you. Had a look with fresh eyes today and agree with you, she doesn't look too masculine. I don't really know why I thought that. I'm definitely going to take a look on tr hairline though.  And probably the cheeks to. Thanks!

Lasca

Ok, added suggested changes:
[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/S9Y30us.png[/imgzoom]

Ykni

That looks good. I love the way the eyes turned out. Makes her look very radiant.

Lasca


Mandle

Amazing result! There was nothing wrong with the first version, but this latest version is much, much more a charismatic-looking game character that will have players indentifying with her and getting emotionally invested in the story.

Brilliant job! PM me a link when the game is finished please!

Lasca

Thanks a lot mandle! Definitely will do!!
Lasca

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