Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 28471 times)

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #160 on: 14 Nov 2016, 20:53 »
I'm kind of sickened by the repeated calls for empathy for Trump voters, when I've pointed out, again and again, that his administration is stripping people of their rights, validating violent hatred, appointing white supremacists that also advocate violent hatred...
...And when someone's opposing view is "Yeah, this guy who will strip minorities of their rights and elect neo nazis was the best option", no, I won't consider it as valid. Don't you even dare try to equate my fear with their hatred.

It seems you are reacting out of raw emotion. I'm not saying I don't understand why. I get it. I really do. Fear is powerful. I don't think I called for empathy with Trump supporters? I just tried to point out that it's not always an easy black and white decision. I am not saying that your feelings are "wrong" (or right). All I'm saying is if you feel that Trump supporters are your enemy and you lash out at them (as you are in here) there's virtually ZERO chance of any outcome other than continued hatred and, most likely, violence. If you're okay with that so be it. I just see it as the same thing you're accusing them of doing, if from a different angle. Hatred and violence are wrong; regardless of the reasons or motivations behind it. You might feel justified, but so do "they". Again, though, I feel the need to reiterate that you're lumping all Trump supporters together simply because you personally cannot understand why anybody would vote for him. I find it hard to believe that all Trump supporters would bring about the realizations of your fears.

I could be wrong... maybe I'm just naive and the good people I know (who voted Trump) are all closeted bigots that blindly hate as you seem to think. They've just been lying to me for 40 years.

But this time IT REALLY HASN'T spat out the same result. That's why everyone's freaking out!...
...I don't in any way expect Trump will fulfill all his campaign promises, but if he has a "normal presidency" I will be astonished.

Your opinion. I see it as the same old same old.

Two candidates I don't approve of forced on me by a system I don't believe in.

Both sides spend more time insulting the other instead of focusing on what they intend to do.

Some chose Clinton. Some Trump.

Hatred and division as the teams are chosen.

Rinse and repeat.

I, too, would be shocked if this were a normal presidency. On that we can agree. I just don't really worry that things will change that much.

Eight years ago many tried to convince us that muslim Obama was going to bring about Sharia law. I wasn't afraid then, I'm not afraid now.

Hate crimes have already increased.

I suspect this is the case after any election. I really don't have any data to support that. Just a feeling. I suspect that a lot of hate crimes go unreported that will not go unreported when we can blame it on Trump (or Clinton). I also suspect, as I mentioned previously, that so much [dis]information is just accepted 'cause it was on the internet lead to the sense that things are a LOT worse than they really are.

Is it at all possible that the fear was about things happening in the real world, not on your Facebook feed?
Come on now... that feels insulting and antagonistic! I was simply pointing to a small example from my corner of the world. I could link to the many articles showing "real world" backlash from Clinton supporters. Just didn't think it was necessary.

If we give in to the hatred and fear "they" win.

We are better than that.

At least I hope we are.

I hope you folks who think this is business as usual are right. I will say this though: When students in Nazi Germany held book burnings in universities, what was the international reaction? Presumably revulsion, horror? Fear of what it might foreshadow?

Not really. People thought it was crass, a little uncivilised. A few leftist intellectuals got very wound up, but most newspapers didn't pay it much heed. Business as usual, nothing really changes...
There are, of course, parallels! Again I'm not saying you are wrong in your fears (though I hope you are)! History is loaded with things like this. I like to think that the US isn't repeating pre-WWII Germany. Time will tell I suppose.

I can only hope we don't give in to the fear and love wins in the end.

Cliche I know!

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #161 on: 14 Nov 2016, 21:42 »
It seems you are reacting out of raw emotion. I'm not saying I don't understand why. I get it. I really do. Fear is powerful. I don't think I called for empathy with Trump supporters? I just tried to point out that it's not always an easy black and white decision. I am not saying that your feelings are "wrong" (or right). All I'm saying is if you feel that Trump supporters are your enemy and you lash out at them (as you are in here) there's virtually ZERO chance of any outcome other than continued hatred and, most likely, violence. If you're okay with that so be it. I just see it as the same thing you're accusing them of doing, if from a different angle. Hatred and violence are wrong; regardless of the reasons or motivations behind it. You might feel justified, but so do "they". Again, though, I feel the need to reiterate that you're lumping all Trump supporters together simply because you personally cannot understand why anybody would vote for him. I find it hard to believe that all Trump supporters would bring about the realizations of your fears.

I'm saying that if they don't stop supporting him, if they stand by their decision to vote for him and don't try to oust him, they are complicit in his crimes. And of course I'm justified, nobody was systematically trying to strip them of their rights. But you know, because Trump wants to sign FADA (First Amendment Defence Act) into law (a law that would require the repeal of explicit LGBT protections signed into law by Obama), he wants to make it explicitly legal to discriminate against people like me. So, big difference.

Also, you know, voting for bigotry tends to make people who love doing hate crimes more empowered to do em, like when Brexit happened. So, it makes the world an actively more dangerous place for marginalised groups to live in.

Also also, don't equate Clinton and Trump, they are completely not on the same level. One is a pretty sleazy politician, the other is LITERALLY HIRING WHITE SUPREMACISTS.

I could be wrong... maybe I'm just naive and the good people I know (who voted Trump) are all closeted bigots that blindly hate as you seem to think. They've just been lying to me for 40 years.

I didn't say that, either, either they actively supported Trump's bigotry, or were complicit in allowing it because it just wasn't that important to them. Either way, it's still an act of violence, one that needs to be stopped. As soon as they stop being complicit in hatred being levelled against me for who I am, I will stop hating them for what they've done. After all, Queer folk can't stop being queer, but Trump voters can stop supporting homophobia and transphobia in the administration. Black people can't stop being black, but Trump voters can stop supporting white supremacists. Muslims and people who read as Muslims (Sikhs, for instance, get misread as being Muslim all the time) can't stop being who they are, but Trump voters can stop supporting violent islamophobia in the administration.

And yes, this involves backpedalling on their vote for Trump. It involves ousting him. It involves never allowing him to pass a law that would hurt people. It involves stopping him from appointing active bigots to positions of high governmental power. But as long as he's in power, he's going to do awful things, and the people that voted for him have to take responsibility for that and finally fight for love and not hate.

On the other hand, what's my crime? Existing as a hated minority? Why shouldn't I hate the people who voted for violence against me for what they've done?
« Last Edit: 14 Nov 2016, 22:06 by Scavenger »

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #162 on: 14 Nov 2016, 22:37 »
I'm saying that if they don't stop supporting him, if they stand by their decision to vote for him and don't try to oust him, they are complicit in his crimes. And of course I'm justified, nobody was systematically trying to strip them of their rights.

Also, you know, voting for bigotry tends to make people who love doing hate crimes more empowered to do em, like when Brexit happened. So, it makes the world an actively more dangerous place for marginalised groups to live in.

I didn't say that, either, either they actively supported Trump's bigotry, or were complicit in allowing it because it just wasn't that important to them. Either way, it's still an act of violence, one that needs to be stopped.

On the other hand, what's my crime? Existing as a hated minority? Why shouldn't I hate the people who voted for violence against me for what they've done?

Scavenger, my friend, I've admired you for years (love your artwork) but you are actually worrying me a bit. I understand your anger, but I really am worried with how you're dealing with it. Responding to hate with hate will bring about nothing but more hate. It isn't going to solve this problem!

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #163 on: 14 Nov 2016, 22:41 »
The thing is that Trump clearly said what he wants (though he never bothered to tell how he wants to do it). So if someone votes for Trump, it makes sense to assume that he or she is more or less okay with his positions (banning muslims, mexican wall, deporting 11 million people etc...). You can't vote just a little bit of Trump, and it has all been spelled out before the election. So nobody should be surprised when Trump actually tries to do make all this real. The most naive thing to do is "protest-vote" and silently hope that he will abandon his plans or that someone somehow will stop him. With a large majority in the Congress he has more power than most presidents before him. It's true that hate won't help here, but I can totally understand the fear.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #164 on: 14 Nov 2016, 23:03 »
Quote from: wikipedia
Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting Pan-Germanism, anti-Semitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda. Hitler frequently denounced international capitalism and communism as being part of a Jewish conspiracy.

By 1933, the Nazi Party was the largest elected party in the German Reichstag, which led to Hitler's appointment as Chancellor on 30 January 1933. Following fresh elections won by his coalition, the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which began the process of transforming the Weimar Republic into Nazi Germany, a one-party dictatorship based on the totalitarian and autocratic ideology of National Socialism.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler (feel free to continue reading where I left off...)

So... Scavenger and all the minorities that Trump actively attacked, should not be worried? Should not be fearful for an uncertain future? Seems like the Jews got the same message back then... "nothing to worry about, move along" :~(
And keep in mind a LOT of people on this world think that the Holocaust never happened! Just a figment of someone's imagination...

But that said, I sure hope, I and everyone who's sincerely worried about this, will be proven wrong.
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #165 on: 14 Nov 2016, 23:09 »
So... Scavenger and all the minorities that Trump actively attacked, should not be worried? Should not be fearful for an uncertain future? Seems like the Jews got the same message back then... "nothing to worry about, move along" :~(

Almost word for word, actually.


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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #166 on: 14 Nov 2016, 23:42 »
What I can't understand is, if presented with two candidates that they both disliked, both with known faults, they would choose the one whose is clearly lacking the intelligence and the experience to be president? And then shrug and say they had no choice? What?

Hillary Clinton: Benghazi, e-mails, suspected Wall Street shenanigans, lacks a relatable personality, has a lecherous husband.

Donald Trump: Racism, bigotry, sexism, accused rapist/molester, proven liar, highly questionable business practices, history of exploiting his workforce, no experience, blatant cronyism...etc, etc.

Regardless of how they feel about Clinton, on what planet is voting for Trump, yet claiming to not agree with him on most of his opinions/rhetoric, the best option?

They could have voted for Clinton, hung around for four years, and seen what the Republican party had to offer then. I guarantee, if Trump had lost spectacularly, the GOP would have rounded on him and his cronies before his concession speech had the time to pass his lips, and the party as a whole might have gone on to have a major rethink of how to approach choosing future candidates. Better candidates.

But no, a woman who they didn't like, who may or may not have been a bit lax with e-mails, who may or may not have Wall Street on speed-dial, was clearly the worse choice.

Americans have the right to feel disenfranchised with there political system as whole. But instead of changing the system, they've burned it down and salted the earth. If they think that anyone other than rich racist bigots are going to benefit from this presidency, they're sorely mistaken.

And, yes, my opinion of America has dropped. About thirty states worth.
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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #167 on: 15 Nov 2016, 01:23 »
And, yes, my opinion of America has dropped. About thirty states worth.
I agree. Even though I'm Canadian, I'm still terrified by all of this.

This is my prediction (which I honestly hope I'm wrong about), assuming he actually makes it into the whitehouse before either being assassinated or stepping down: Trump will be known as the worst president in the history of USA

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #168 on: 15 Nov 2016, 08:25 »
But this time IT REALLY HASN'T spat out the same result. That's why everyone's freaking out!...
...I don't in any way expect Trump will fulfill all his campaign promises, but if he has a "normal presidency" I will be astonished.

Your opinion. I see it as the same old same old.

Two candidates I don't approve of forced on me by a system I don't believe in.

No, it's not just my opinion. It's an objective fact.

That the Speaker of the House refused to campaign for his party's nominee is not "same old same old".
That Trump said his opponent would be in jail if he was president is not "same old same old".
That the sitting president declared the other party's nominee unfit to sit in the Oval Office is not "same old same old".
That the candidates refused to shake hands on the debate stage is not "same old same old".

Again, these are signs, symptoms of how radically different Trump is as a candidate. Every previous president (and I believe all but one previous major-party nominee) has either held prominent elected office or been a military commander before running. Trump is a reality TV star who a couple of years ago was best known to many for his twitter feuds with Rosie O'Donnell.

By no reasonable standard has this been a normal election or a normal outcome. Your attitude is essentially "Fuck it, I don't care about your so-called democracy. Politicians running for president? (Even though this time around one of them was not a politician.) Pshaw! Until you have a giraffe running against my uncle Dave, it's all the same to me."
« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2016, 08:27 by Snarky »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #169 on: 15 Nov 2016, 11:24 »
This is interesting, because the nazis would most likely never have come to power without the treaty of versailles. It pauperised the german nation. By legislating away a whole country's national pride, it basically ensured that it eventually and inevitably returned by the easiest route: Through hate and exclusion.

I'm not making excuses for the nazis. What I'm saying is that the rise of hitler was practically engineered.

Again, these are signs, symptoms of how radically different Trump is as a candidate.

You have described in detail the reason that trump appealed to many. He was seen largely as a roll of the dice, where hillary presented the certainty of the status quo. Someone suggested these people just elect hillary and hope there's a better candidate in 4 years? A lot of people were not willing to be bukkake'd with ISDS and the like for the benefit of illegal immigrants and muslims. I'm not saying this is right, it's not what I would have done. But this is how it was for many.

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #170 on: 15 Nov 2016, 13:04 »
No, it's not just my opinion. It's an objective fact.

That the Speaker of the House refused to campaign for his party's nominee is not "same old same old".
That Trump said his opponent would be in jail if he was president is not "same old same old".
That the sitting president declared the other party's nominee unfit to sit in the Oval Office is not "same old same old".
That the candidates refused to shake hands on the debate stage is not "same old same old".

Those are details of this election cycle that made it different from previous election cycles. Just like there were different details when Obama ran, and Bush before him.

The broad-strokes (as I see it and said before):
- There were still only two candidates put forth by the two parties that "we the people" are forced to pick from.
- There was still the same old "team picking" nonsense that leads to separation and animosity.
- There was still the same old mud-slinging childish behavior from both sides.
- The antiquated electoral college still chose the winner (or in this case the loser).
- We are still having this type of debate (same as 4, 8, 12 years ago) after the election.
- Everybody is still convinced this time it's gonna be disastrous (just like all other changes of power)

I am not going to give in to the mass hysteria. It'll calm down in a few months like it always does. The people will forget about for about 3 years. Then it'll start all over again. I suspect next election will be different though... hashtagSarcasm

Anyway... I made it clear that I was not trying to convince anybody of anything in here and I sincerely meant it. I feel like the "tone" in here has become more civil at least (which was really all I was hoping for).

In the modern world the word "bigot" has come to be used for people who hate a person or group of people based on race/religion/sexual-orientation.

However the actual definition of bigot is:

big·ot /ˈbiɡət/ - noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

I find that interesting.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #171 on: 15 Nov 2016, 13:41 »
I am not going to give in to the mass hysteria. It'll calm down in a few months like it always does. The people will forget about for about 3 years.

*Bookmarks thread and waits*

Also, Merriam Webster's definition of bigot more closely reflects contemporary usage:

Quote
"a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)"

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #172 on: 15 Nov 2016, 13:56 »
Yeah, like I said:
Quote
In the modern world the word "bigot" has come to be used for people who hate a person or group of people based on race/religion/sexual-orientation.

The actual definition is still valid though.

I came in to this thread taking neither side, just trying to express the need for tolerance and understanding.

So much continued intolerance.

Absolute unwillingness to see other's opinions.

My way or the highway.

Not with us, against us.

Sounds familiar?

Makes me sad.

I am tired of being sad.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #173 on: 15 Nov 2016, 14:05 »
I'm sorry you're sad. But the google definition of a word is not the "actual" definition of a word. That's not how the English language works.

Compassion yes, tolerance no. I feel compassion for the poor, downtrodden, disenfranchised, under-educated, blinkered and misled Americans who voted for Trump. Tolerance of their jingoistic racism and misogyny? Never.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #174 on: 15 Nov 2016, 14:15 »
I had no expectation you'd agree.

Just sharing my different opinion.

Getting attacked for it.

Meriam-Webster's full definition of bigot:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;
especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So if Google's definition doesn't work, does the same one you linked to work?
« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2016, 14:21 by Darth Mandarb »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #175 on: 15 Nov 2016, 14:46 »
Unshakeable belief is not synonymous with bigotry. I think fire burns and rain falls and you won't convince me otherwise. That's not bigotry; it has no victims.

While I have criticised people for defending Trump and Trump voters - there is a difference between belonging to a racial or ethnic group and being (for example) a Trump supporter. You're not born a Trump supporter, you decide to be one and criticism is legitimate.

I don't think I've demonstrated obstinate devotion to any prejudices. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.


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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #176 on: 15 Nov 2016, 14:59 »
I wasn't accusing you of anything.

I wasn't calling you a bigot.

I think there's a disconnect here.

I'm not saying we should be tolerant of rape, racism, bigotry, etc.

I'm saying that I'm seeing bigotry exhibited in this thread.

The sentitment: support for Trump = you are a raping, racist bigot.

This is an obstinate and intolerant devotion to one's opinions/prejudices. Trump = bad, so anybody who supports him = bad.

To reduce a person's reason(s) for voting for Trump to a simple definition that supports your narrative is narrow-minded and intolerant. I have explained (several times) that when you're forced to choose A or B you sometimes have to latch on to a person you might even despise simply because you despise their opponent more. This is how it works in our presidential elections. It's not (only) the voters' faults, it's the fault of a broken system nobody seems inclined to do anything about fixing.

Just because person A thinks Clinton was the superior candidate doesn't mean everybody else will agree with them. We have to be willing to accept that just because we might think it's obvious A is better than B doesn't mean others will share those feelings.

I really am sad, and tired, of this. I feel like I'm repeating myself to a brick wall. Some people agree with me, some don't... that's okay. That's how it works.

I accept that.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #177 on: 15 Nov 2016, 18:25 »
The broad-strokes (as I see it and said before):
- There were still only two candidates put forth by the two parties that "we the people" are forced to pick from.
- There was still the same old "team picking" nonsense that leads to separation and animosity.
- The antiquated electoral college still chose the winner (or in this case the loser).

This literally just describes the American electoral system or its direct, inevitable characteristics. You are effectively saying that until the US has a revolution to do away with the Constitution, it doesn't matter who gets elected.

It's the laziest excuse for dismissing politics. It's like refusing to go to school because a required class has a final exam with a multiple choice section, and you think all questions should be open-answer. Or insisting that all politics is illegitimate until there's a union between the US and Canada. I mean, get real!

You know what, I agree that the US political system is pretty bad. Ideally I think you guys should have a monarchy, with a proportionally elected parliament and a Prime Minister chosen by the majority coalition. (I am 100% serious; I am a believer in constitutional monarchy as a form of government superior to the presidential system.) Does that mean until you guys get your shit together and proclaim a king, everything else is just "details" that don't matter? Of course not! That would be fucking moronic! There's never going to be a king of the United States (at least not the constitutional monarch I have in mind), just like you're never getting rid of the two-party system. For better or worse you're stuck with the Constitution, and you'll have to play by the rules as they are.

- There was still the same old mud-slinging childish behavior from both sides.
- We are still having this type of debate (same as 4, 8, 12 years ago) after the election.
- Everybody is still convinced this time it's gonna be disastrous (just like all other changes of power)

I am not going to give in to the mass hysteria. It'll calm down in a few months like it always does. The people will forget about for about 3 years. Then it'll start all over again.

Actually I don't think any of the last elections were anything like this, either from the candidates or the mainstream of supporters. There was a backlash against Obama that eventually led to the "Tea Party", but it took much longer to form.

And I'll just compare with things I personally posted here on the forums in the past few elections:

2012:
Romney is clearly well-qualified on paper to be president, but last time around he left everyone with the impression that he doesn't stand for anything and is prepared to change his mind on any issue for political advantage, and I think that will sink him in the primaries.
[...]
I think the best bet for the GOP is to pick a pair of candidates that look competent and trustworthy and aren't too extreme, who can play on populist anger without seeming like populists and can convince Americans that they know how to fix things without providing too many details about the painful choices they'll have to make. Then it all depends on how the economy is doing and whether the country is sick of Obama.

2008:
One of the fascinating things about the nomination process this particular year is that it has been a genuine race, with a lot of interesting and different candidates on both sides and no foregone conclusions. (The Democrats are generally very pleased with their options, while Republicans, at least conservative Republicans, are less thrilled with the candidates they have to choose from.) Consequently, interest and participation in the primary elections are way up, and Americans seem to be feeling a lot more cheerful about their democracy than they have for a long time.
I'd much rather have Obama, or even McCain [than fictional Jed Bartlet]. For all the desperate negative campaigning of the last few weeks, and the disqualifying pick of Palin as his running mate, McCain has mostly conducted an admirably honorable campaign. Moreso than Hillary Clinton did, I'd argue. When the dust settles, I think people will come to respect that.

2004:
I never hated John Kerry, but like many Democrats I was fairly lukewarm in my enthusiasm for him. In too many ways, he seemed like "Bush lite", with policy proposals that were just watered-down conservative positions. He failed to offer a clear and distinct alternative. Specifically on Iraq, but also in general. In recent speeches and in the debate, he went a long way towards rectifying this.

Other policies I was (and remain) uncomfortable with include his commitment to perpetuate the US policy of blind support for Israel, and his populist stance against free trade. However, a president who will pursue a fair Israel/Palestine policy is a pipe dream, and in spite of his rhetoric, Kerry's voting record remains solidly pro-free trade.

In learning more about Kerry, I have discovered how many of his opinions and priorities I share. I have been impressed by his life, as well as by his performance in the debate. I have come to feel that Goddammit! this man should be president.

Besides, consider the alternative...

I wasn't a fan of W, but I think it's clear that  – speaking only for myself – the tone of commentary was entirely different in the last three elections than in this one.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #178 on: 15 Nov 2016, 19:05 »
Snarky - I consider you a friend. Truly. But you have a frustrating habit of telling people what they are thinking/saying.

I really don't wish to keep repeating myself, or being called a moron for expressing my opinions.

We disagree. Let's just leave it at that and move on.

I truly hope the anger and intolerance that is permeating in this thread doesn't spread to the rest of the forums.

Be well.

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    • I can help with scripting
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    • Scavenger worked on a game that was nominated for an AGS Award!
      Scavenger worked on a game that won an AGS Award!
Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #179 on: 15 Nov 2016, 21:02 »

The sentitment: support for Trump = you are a raping, racist bigot.

Ughhhhhh. Ughhhhhh. Come on, don't get all sanctimonious on me. I've explained about five times already exactly what I meant, and getting all holier than thou "But you're being bigoted against Trump voters" is... Kind of insulting.

Its not that I don't understand their reasoning behind voting. But what they have done is incredibly harmful, and harmful things must be stopped. I'm sorry you don't think the rights of minority groups are more important than the rights of people to vote in really terrible candidates. But you're reaaaaaaaaaaaally implying that Trump hasn't actively campaigned for hatred and that the voters for him aren't complicit in enabling that hatred,thus have done something wrong that needs to be fixed.

The ultimate effect of their vote is:
- A lot of politicians who hate minorities are in high positions of power.
- Active bigotry has been validated, leading to an increase in  hate crime.
- even if Trump does none of the things set out in his campaign, there will still be a scary left by empowered bigots, who will lash out at minorities.

I do not hate Trump voters for who they are. If they fixed their mistake, if they showed active compassion towards my people instead of at best, willing indifference, I would cease hating them. My hatred is not bigotry, but more, resentment for an action. If someone stole from me, if someone attacked me, I would hate them for their crime until they atoned.

This is not a hatred for an opinion. This is seeing an injustice done and wanting it fixed.

And you gotta understand that. I don't hate them for who they are. I hate their willing enabling of oppression. As soon as they show that they're not enabling oppression but fighting back, that ends my disagreement with them.