Ok, I want to start off by saying, I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way!
I wanted to challenge myself with a task in something I have never done before, so I decided to make a program that can read the compiled .tra files.
I have it nearly fully functional (except non-alpha/Special characters).
I don't want to be disrespectful and release it without permission. I am creating this specifically for translation of games, because it would be nice to have a program that can be used without tracking down the owner and getting the source to the translation. (not sure if a program exists already)
I am not sure how you feel about this topic, and as I wont release it if you are totally against it. I think it would be a great tool for the community to easily translate games!
if you agree to allow me to distribute it, I plan on making a simple column based editor, which will use google translate + other methods to help the translator.
Thank you for your time!
Quote from: krum110487 on Fri 07/01/2011 06:07:40
simple editor, which will use google translate + other methods to help the translator.
Clever and straightforward! :) I like the idea.
Now, the only issue is to get the approval of Chris Jones.
Considering the latest evolutions of his strategy regarding the sources of AGS, I guess he won't be hostile to that idea, but of course I can't speak for him.
That would be awesome, i vote yes ;D
Please do not do this.
Part of the reason why AGS has a separate compiled translation format is because the feedback from game authors was that they wanted control of translations released for their games.
Imagine that you've spent a lot of time making a high-quality game, and then a random person on the internet creates their own French translation, full of mistakes and possibly profanity, and releases it to the world as a "French translation for the game". The game author would have no control over this, and French people would play it and get a bad experience.
As far as I know, people making games still have this opinion and still want control over who can create translations for their games so that they can review them and control the quality of translations.
I'm with CJ.
Small indie games like these dont have the same defenses as big budget ones.
If someone plays a shitty translation of a AAA game they blame the modder because its been released unofficially
however if someone plays a shit translation of an indie game its easy to pass it off as an 'official' version.
I also say: No!
Do not release it.
I've had many experiences with game translations.
Those who want to translate usually come forward and offer their services by themselves.
Then I can give them the files.
This worked and works perfectly.
Apart from that every good translation needs continous dialog with the game autor.
We even had to build up a complete wiki with character and location descriptions,
where translators could meet and exchange each other...
If you release your thing you will cause a lot of trouble.
Also the first thing that will happen is that somebody makes a joke and creates a radically different translation.
Something like: "Polly wants a joint!" instead of "Polly wants a cracker!" or similar...
Maybe they will even use the dialogs of "Porn Quest" for "Kings Quest"...
It will just cause disgusting confusion.
See this is why I wanted to ask, my first thought was to just release it, but I decided to ask instead!
I will not release it as promised, and I am a man of my word!
As for quality control, I completely understand, but the other side of the coin is availability to non-default language speaking people, who want to play the game, but have no choice.
Bad translation or not, I love playing games, I have never played before, this software could be used to have unofficial translations and be distributed separately and optionally.
BUT, as I stated I will not release it, and I will stop development on extracting text from the executable. Thanks for the official word and the quick response!!
:Edit:
Alternatively, I may create a program to translate the translation source files to .po or other great translators, but I kinda just got that idea from another post recently.
Thanks for checking with us.
The general opinion that I've heard from most people is that they'd rather play the game with its original English text, than play a bad translation. Obviously that's not an option for people that simply don't speak any English, but in a lot of cases it's better to have no translation than a bad or inaccurate one.
I think you should think about people who can't understand a single word in english. Because studied other language, or not studied any language at all. I know you all have english as a mother tongue, or speaking english quite enough to enjoy games in original language... But think about those who NEED translation, because they simply cannot play the game without it.
Everything works perfectly, till the authors are "alive". The translator contact the author, the author handle the translation file, etc... BUT I think there're a lot of authors who impossible to contact with nowadays, and you say these games simply "shoudn't be translated". You don't know how many people don't speak english but love to play with this games if they could understand the words. Easy to say "no need bad translation" while you sitting in England, or in the U.S, or just perfectly speaking english.
Just take a look at my situation now: 5 Days a Stranger has hungarian translation. Many hungarians, kids, adults, don't speak english, but wants to play the sequence of this game. I'm trying to contact to the games author for days, but he just don't reply me. I think he has no time, or just "rude", I don't know. It seems I will never have the chance to translate these games, because the author is so "famous" that its impossible to get in touch with him. I'm glad to see that some people thought about these issues in the past, and I'm sad to see that you "officially" refuse any chance to translate a game without the author.
I think the benefits would much more overweight the drawbacks... You just take away a lot of fun from non-english people because of that small possibility of a drawback...
Yeah, Yahtzee really hates to be contacted (even before he got famous with ZP).
If the russians have a right to release their games with no or extremely poor translation (see: Pathologic), then I beliebe everyone else should have that right too. :D
On a more serious note: if the author of the game wants to make the game available to a wider audience, that is the author's decision. While I am open minded (one of my games was released in 5 languages, and I can only read two of them, so no way to actually check the translations), I would be very angry if people modified without my consent.
As long as I have a right to decide who gets to make the translations, I can at least send them a nasty message if there is negative feedback, but if anyone can do the translations, I lose control over my creation.
Sorry for rambling, but I wanted to give my two cents on this matter.
I agree with the general consensus, and more specifically with what WHAM said.
RoliX, we're not trying to alienate you by making games in our own native language any more than people who make movies in their language without offering official dubs are. Yet if you were to create an unofficial dub, even if distributing it separately from the actual video file, you could potentially face criminal copyright infringement charges.
You're looking at this from the perspective of a non-native English speaker, which is fine, but where your argument falls flat is that you completely fail to recognize that this is an issue across the board, not just for us elitist English speakers. If the original game author chooses not to distribute their game without a translation, that is their choice, and their choice alone. You aren't being prevented from downloading or playing the game, you're just asked to play it in its original language or that of one of the official translations.
If you really want to play the games, you will. You'll use Google Translate or buy a translation dictionary or what have you, and you might lose quite a bit in translation, but you'll press forward and finish the game. Heck, you might even play it again. And what do you know if the more you play it, the less you have to look up those translations. In a few play throughs you might even be able to go it alone and still get all the enjoyment the native speakers do.
Otherwise, if the game's not worth the work, you won't play it.
The point is that 1) translations should be the game author's choice, and 2) even without a translation in-game, nobody's stopping you from getting the full experience except possibly yourself.
Its not about "choices". If an author release a game in 2004 and nobody contact him about turkish translation, there won't be any turkish translation, right? In this case, was it the author's special decision to NOT make any turkish translation? NO
Just nobody appeared with such intentions back then. And imagine that the author changed e-mail 3 times since 2004, and impossible to contact with him. Then it was the author's choice that there should NEVER EVER be a turkish translation to his game? I think, no.
You talk about restrictions... That you intented to release your games ONLY in english language, and you DON'T WANT foreign people to play your game, or just force them to use dictionary when playing. Thats a "bit" cruel, don't you think? Thats interesting how people play around with restrictions, when they use a totally freee game engine. So I don't know why this is the attitude here. I must mention that if somebody wants to force my hungarian fellows to play with a dictionary, then I don't care about his game too. There are many authors here with more kindness and less selfishness.
However, there should be a solution somewhere... I think that would be good if games could be freely translated to any language, but impossible to modify the original language. AND, the "cruel" authors could mark somehow that they do NOT allow people to translate their games, except with special permission.
p.s: if everything worked like you want, then most people couldn't play adventure games in my home country. Because most of famous games translation is unofficial.
I never used the word restrictions. I explained exactly why the scenario is the exact opposite of that. The only person stopping you or holding you back is you.
I don't find it cruel that the game author has the right to maintain and preserve the integrity of their creation. Imagine if I released a translation of your game and just inserted sexual metaphors and innuendo ("in her end-o" hehehe :P) in place of some mundane dialogue between young children, I'd venture to say you'd be rather upset at me. And as extreme as that is, it's not to say the feature couldn't be used legitimately.
The problem though is that you, as the game author would have no control over the situation. You would be powerless to stop me distributing my "Official English Translation". The only way to resolve that is to leave things as they already are. It's not cruel. It's the only way to let the game author preserve the integrity of their own creation.
I don't know who is that jerk who take his time and make a full translation just to insert some nasty lines. Anyway, if the unofficial translation is just a joke, I mean its not a serious translation, then players will realize soon that thats not really a translation just a joke, and they change language. And they start to blame the site where they got the game or the translation, which is obviously not my site, e.g. not the official site.
Anyway, I can easily write to the game credits that I'm not responsible for the translations.
The cruel is when you say you simply don't want foreigns to play with your game. Or use dictionary, what is nonsense. Yeah, the author's right that he can decide what to do with his game. I don't say its not "legal" to deliberately restrict the game from foreign people. Its just kind of racism, and selfishness. Racism, if you obviously want your game ONLY for english speaking people. And selfishness if your game will be impossible to translate 5-10 years later, because you retired and didn't give the chance to the future to translate your game and spread the world, because you were afraid of the possibility of 0-1 jerks who migh play around with the translation.
I understand your arguments though, I just still think that the pros are much overweight the cons.
I'm in aware that you will never understand my points... I played a lot of great games here, and when I finish a game, I have a feeling that I MUST recommend that great game to my friends. But I can't recommend them, because they immediately ask "is there a translation?", and I say "no :(" and thats all... I better don't even talk them about those games, because they just become jealous to me that I can play with that great games and they can't.
I'm on the side of the would-be translators here.
As a game creator, I'd rather have someone enjoy a game translated than not at all. I don't believe that someone would go out of their way to translate an entire game and then fuck it up deliberately.
Of course, I'd rather the author help out with the translation effort than have it done in a vacuum, but if the author is too busy, uncontactable, or doesn't have the source or the know-how, I don't see the harm.
I think the best option is to have the game unlocked to translations by default, but if the author feels the need to control translations, have them check a box to lock out downloadable translations.
I'm also in favor of making the translation process easier and less restrictive. Removing the requirement for the game to be rebuilt to support every new translation would help not just unauthorized translators, but those who have the blessing of the creators but not actual access to the source.
Most video players allow you to load separate subtitle files (and even separate audio tracks), which anyone can easily create, and this has facilitated lots of "fansubs" that make stuff in foreign languages (particularly anime that is only available in Japanese) accessible to a wider audience. As far as I know, low-quality or fraudulent translations are not a serious problem.
It should be possible for AGS to display a warning when loading unauthorized translations, to alert players that the version they're playing may not accurately reflect the original, no? In my opinion that should be sufficient protection for the integrity of the game maker.
But then in general I think the whole translation system should be redesigned, and if I ever get around to messing with the engine code, it would be my #1 priority.
Quote from: Kweepa on Sat 09/07/2011 09:55:05
I think the best option is to have the game unlocked to translations by default, but if the author feels the need to control translations, have them check a box to lock out downloadable translations.
That sounds like the way to go. We *need* to give game authors the option to lock their game from external translations, otherwise AGS will not be usable for commercial projects anymore, but it should be an option. And defaulting to having games be open to translations made by other people seems like a good idea. That way most titles would certainly be translatable by anybody with the exception of some protected ones in which cases we know the author really doesn't want it, it's their game and their decision.
Regarding "control over translations":
Like has been said, if there's an opportunity to do something, there's an opportunity to abuse it. Is it likely in this case? I don't think so.
Snarky already mentioned fansubs, I was thinking of hacked console and handheld ROMs. It has already happened several times that I've read about a great game only to find out that it was never released outside Japan. Imagine my joy when I found out there is an unofficial English translation.
We don't know for sure what Yahtzee's attitude is in this case; let's not insinuate maliciousness just because he didn't answer an email that he maybe never got in the first place.
I don't know Yahtzee's intentions about his games' translations(if he has any). I just mentioned him as an example, because he made a famous game serie here, but impossible to contact with him nowadays. Probably we will never now what is his opinion about translating his games, therefore his games will be never available in foreign languages :/ I wouldn't be surprised if he just "didn't care" about his games anymore while the years passing... Probably lost his sources too? Anyway, impossible to translate those games...
Probably there are, and there will be always similar situation like this. I don't want to blame Yahtzee, just mentioned his games as an example for the negative effect of restricted translations. I don't think if somebody made a good game, he must look forward and reply all his emails about his game in a lifetime. Thats not how things work. Thats why people should get some "freedom" in translating.
If the developer of the game is unable to or unwilling to update and maintain his game, that is his decision. If he doesn't answer e-mails or doesn't use the e-mail anymore and has not updated this information, then he has not given a permission to alter OR improve his creation, thus it should not be done.
If you really want to improve or translate his game, you will keep dilligently bombarding him, or any developer, with e-mail and other communication until you get a response or accept the fact that there will not be one.
I understand that it seems a bit cold and unforgiving, but if you can't be sure the original developer accepts what you are doing, you are basically going against their will by default.
Ultimate bottom line and my last word about the matter: if you do not have explicit permission, then you should NOT do it! If the developer does not give permission, then he loses potential players, but this is a tradeoff I believe many developers are willing to take.
Quote from: WHAM on Sat 09/07/2011 20:57:13
If the developer of the game is unable to or unwilling to update and maintain his game, that is his decision. If he doesn't answer e-mails or doesn't use the e-mail anymore and has not updated this information, then he has not given a permission to alter OR improve his creation, thus it should not be done.
If you really want to improve or translate his game, you will keep dilligently bombarding him, or any developer, with e-mail and other communication until you get a response or accept the fact that there will not be one.
I understand that it seems a bit cold and unforgiving, but if you can't be sure the original developer accepts what you are doing, you are basically going against their will by default.
Ultimate bottom line and my last word about the matter: if you do not have explicit permission, then you should NOT do it! If the developer does not give permission, then he loses potential players, but this is a tradeoff I believe many developers are willing to take.
You are a lawyer, or something like this?
You sounds like a politician, always act by following the "paragraphs" 10000% and do not care about what is good for the massive amount of people.
Many great COMMERCIAL adventure games don't really lock their translation files. Officially they don't support amateur translations, of course... But also don't really fight against translations ;) It's good for the business: more people buy telltale games, for example, if there is some kind of translation available in a particular country.
I'm really surprised that we talk about free games here, what you made with a FREE TOOL, and some of you fight till bleed against unnofficial translations :/
You just give +1 reason to many people why play new fancy games(unnoficially translated, ofc) instead of AGS games...
Edit: Kweepa's idea should be acceptable for everyone. I'm sure that in the past, most of game authors wouldn't have chosen the "locked translation" deliberately, if they had had the oppurtunity to choose. But there is still a chance to make the future easier. Much easier for authors, they don't have to maintain their games for 10-15 years or more... Translators could do all the work alone.
About this: "If the developer of the game is unable or unwilling to update and maintain his game, that is his decision. "
No, I think this is not a "decision". Things are not so easy and "black and white" that you might think. Considering that we are talking about free games, there is far more chance that the author is not against translations. Although, if we cannot ask the particular author, we can not be 100% sure that he would agree. But if he don't care about his games anymore, then why would he care about its translations?
And what if he accidentaly lost his resources? Or just didn't think that somebody wants to translate his game in the future, and didn't care to save their resources when reinstalled his os, or changed computer... In these situations, the author didn't make any decision about translatings, just lost his own game.
If the author loses his game and does not have backups, then that is the author's problem, end of that line of argument right there.
And no matter how much you argue how "FREE games created with a FREE tool" should be far less of a problem than, say, a commercial game, the fact is that even if the developer tool is free and the game is playable for free, its creation was not "free". The author makes a huge personal investment of time and effort to create a game, and no one should have the right to alter that creation in any way without the original authors consent.
The translations should remain locked and the original author's consent should be required by default. A way to unlock your game to translations in AGS would not be a bad thing, even in this thread some have shown they would gladly allow free translating of their games, but this should not be the default.
To me, translations are welcome in my games, but I will definitely want to know what translations are being made, and would want to hear from the translator during the creation process of the translation, as well as be able to check the translation on my side before releasing it.
Every translation I release for my games I read through using google translate or similiar tool, and if I see something striking me as odd, I will contact the translator and ask for explanation first and only then release the translation.
Edit: Nevermind... Whatever I say, won't help foreign nations to play abandoned games... Probably some people should learn some attitude from open source associations. Not to make all games open source, but to don't be paranoid.
No one is entitled to being able to play a game. A game is an artistic effort on the part of the author, who should have creative control over its release. You're using the same arguments as piracy advocates that if a game isn't released in their region legitimately, they are entitled to it anyway and can illegally download it with a clean conscience. Games are entertainment and luxuries, not commodities.
And anyway, you're wasting your time on Yahtzee. In case you hadn't noticed, he's kind of an asshole and I doubt he cares at all about having his several-year-old games translated anymore. I am impressed that you have managed to out-asshole Yahtzee with your insane troll logic, though, so props.
"No one is entitled to being able to play a game."
Since we are talking about free games, everybody is entitled to play those games for free. Just many people don't speak english and can't play the game, even though they are "entitled".
But call me a troll, if you feel better...
I decided to give up arguing though... Waste of time. At least I hope most authors won't be "assholes" and do not loose their resources.
Quote from: krum110487 on Fri 07/01/2011 06:07:40
Ok, I want to start off by saying, I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way!
I wanted to challenge myself with a task in something I have never done before, so I decided to make a program that can read the compiled .tra files.
I have it nearly fully functional (except non-alpha/Special characters).
I don't want to be disrespectful and release it without permission. I am creating this specifically for translation of games, because it would be nice to have a program that can be used without tracking down the owner and getting the source to the translation. (not sure if a program exists already)
I am not sure how you feel about this topic, and as I wont release it if you are totally against it. I think it would be a great tool for the community to easily translate games!
if you agree to allow me to distribute it, I plan on making a simple column based editor, which will use google translate + other methods to help the translator.
Thank you for your time!
Did this have any further development since the thread started? I understand that some people opposed to the tool being published but I think, in my own opinion, they fail to see the big picture. It would be a really nice tool for people who have friends that don't speak/understand English. Sometimes I get frustrated because I try to engage my friends in some great adventure games but the language barrier is what it is... a barrier. Another thing, is it possible to add translations to an AGS game that doesn't have any external translation?
Best regards.
I'll say that if someone insists on doing it and releasing it just go ahead, as since AGS has become open sourced this is hard to prevent now, but don't expect this would get any official support.
IMO it's the games' creators' own decision on whether translations should be available in any specific language. If they don't want it just leave them alone.
Quote from: Iceboty V7000a on Tue 30/08/2011 02:46:14
I'll say that if someone insists on doing it and releasing it just go ahead, as since AGS has become open sourced this is hard to prevent now, but don't expect this would get any official support.
IMO it's the games' creators' own decision on whether translations should be available in any specific language. If they don't want it just leave them alone.
Thanks for the reply, although it's not really a reply to my question...
As I understand, krum110487 never released his tool because he's the real deal, he respects.
In fact he respected so much the negative feedback that the positive feedback was overshadowed in all senses.
And what's up with the use of the verb "insist", is there some implying there?
About the lack of official support, are you a member of the developing team of the tool in question Iceboty V7000a?
And addressing your opinion, by my question it's quite perceptible that I'm on the "foreign-player side" (a.k.a. The Dark Side) so don't bother with the egocentricity. I'v read the whole topic and the likes of it are all over. My regards to RoliX, for his humble but seemingly useless effort to establish a bridge of common sense. Also congratulations to krum110487 for the project he achieved even if it wasn't released.
krum110487, if you're reading, I hope you can get AGS developers support on this. But I'm referring to a serious debate about the subject, it would be nice for a change. In my opinion this topic was poorly reviewed and curiously most posters that expressed their ideas shared the same "ideals", not much diversity obviously.
Thanks.
Quote from: ner0 on Tue 30/08/2011 10:14:11
And what's up with the use of the verb "insist", is there some implying there?
I meant, someone insists on doing this despite there is no official support.
Quote
About the lack of official support, are you a member of the developing team of the tool in question Iceboty V7000a?
No (and I have no interest in it anyway), but I am a mod here.
Thanks for the kinds words, and to answer your question, no that night I am pretty sure I deleted the file, it only took me about 3 hours to crack, it wasn't extremely hard since I could input the text build the game, then see check the binary, rinse repeat.
I imagine one day I might release it if/when ags hasn't had a new game for x amount of years, I doubt that day will come, but if the community ever dies (hopefully never) I would be more inclined to release it.
the main reason I made it in the first place is because I wanted to play the Maniac Mansion games that are only in German, since I am an english speaking person and I don't know German, and it was kind of a challenge for my programming skills.
My thought on fan translations is that they are flattering and would be great for abandoned games, it would be neat to have a service where someone would contact users for permission to translate games, I would gladly safe guard the program and not allow anyone to have it and simply rip the games that have been permitted by the original author or the game has been abandoned for x amount of years, then the translation would have to be released on here in a special section declaring it is a fan translation. (but that is the ideal world)
but as I stated before, I have no idea if I even have the program anymore, and I wont be developing it until someone on the dev team or the majority ok's it.
Have a good day :-D
Dont want to continue diggin up this thread, but as an Spanish user, i think the language barrier is TOO MUCH for many, many people out there. And, ok, it a work of author, then its kind of artistic, aka a work of art, then... is for everyone.
Someone makes a point with the "piracy" argument, but the majority are free games, so, i think the best, and more reasonable solution woud be to have an option in the editor.
I agree on the "more pros than cons" argument. Just think on many many animes out there. And if a translation is really bad, is almost sure some person will redo it again.
A check option could be a wonderful and simple solution.
Cheers,
L.