3D characters in AGS?

Meowster · Fri 21/05/2004 22:28:39

This has probably been asked before, but....

How difficult would it be to incorporate the ability to use 3D... I think the word is 'realtime'... characters into the next version of AGS?

And is there a possibility it will ever be available in AGS?

I think it would be nifty. Maybe it would be horribly hard to implement, though. Or something. I don't know.

Privateer Puddin' · Fri 21/05/2004 22:30:45

CJ mentioned 3D chars on 2d backgrounds could be possible?

MrColossal · Fri 21/05/2004 22:35:19

he mentioned it and then i think he was talked out of it for good reason

I think the people involved felt AGS should be made the best damned 2d adventure game engine it can be and not bring up this scary new world of 3d

but, who knows [besides CJ [and me if i traveled to the future and found out]]

Meowster · Fri 21/05/2004 22:41:54

I don't know. I mean, the world of 3D is scary, sure. And it can be done wrong.

But 2D can be done wrong too. Look at how many atrocious 2D games are released on AGS.

But then, there are excellent ones too.

I agree that AGS should be made the best damned 2D engine out there. But I don't think by adding 3D characters (I'm using all the wrong terminology here) is going to mark it as a 3D engine. I think it's just going to make it a more flexible 2D engine.

LGM · Fri 21/05/2004 23:33:59

If you're talking about Resident Evil 1 and 2 type characters.. Yea, that'd be great. But yes, twould be very very very hard to implement.. And probably only 2 people would utilize it correctly, thus making CJ's efforts futile.

MrColossal · Sat 22/05/2004 00:12:50

i'm sure more people would join AGS to use it for it's 3d abilities, LGM

I'm not concerned of AGS being marked a 3d engine, yufster, there are a lot of things that would have to happen to make it good than just allowing 3d characters is basically what i mean, how would AGS handle lighting? would it just be up to the texture map to show light on the model or should CJ spend time developing a way to implement 3d lighting into the engine, what about animations? how are they handled? are they interpolated between each other? how many polys should be the max? will people understand that you can't have 345 billion polygons in their character and then wonder why AGS isn't working?

I'm not opposed to 3d adventure games I just think that something that was designed as a 3d engine would be a better thing to learn than learning with AGS as it slowly builds up into a useable 2d/3d engine.

shbaz · Sat 22/05/2004 01:20:42

If you've ever played Final Fantasy Eight you probably noticed the ugly white lines around the characters, which I believe was because they were 2d sprites (correct me if I'm wrong) and the fight scenes and world map were 3d.

I had this idea to use AGS for rooms (just like FF8) and use compiled Blender .exe games as worldmaps and action scenes. If it is possible to use AGS with other programs (like Blender running over AGS) then it is possibe to do that. You could keep the story straight by having the two apps share a file that gives relevant data.

If that wouldn't work and you still want 3d, hell, all of the models and rooms are going to be rigged and textured in 3d right? Why not just use a 3d engine? There are many free ones, and there are very competant ones like Garage Games offers that are cheap (I think that particular one is ~$40).

MrColossal · Sat 22/05/2004 01:27:02

final fantasy 8 had 3d characters on a 2d image except for the battle screen and world map, the same with 7 and 9

shbaz · Sat 22/05/2004 01:29:34

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 22/05/2004 01:27:02
final fantasy 8 had 3d characters on a 2d image except for the battle screen and world map, the same with 7 and 9

I know 7 and 9 weren't that way.. but if 8 wasn't, what was the deal with the white crap around the characters? I remember that it didn't exist in the PC version. Because of that I assumed the chars were 2d sprites, rendered from a 3d prog.

EDIT:
I know this isn't the tech forum, but any info on running both AGS and a compiled 3d game together?

BOYD1981 · Sat 22/05/2004 02:08:05

more character views (instead of just 2 horizontal, 2 vertical and 4 diagonal) would allow more of a 3D look, then if you've made your 3D character you just have to render the frames from the required angles...

MrColossal · Sat 22/05/2004 02:15:59

i don't recall any whitestuff and i've played that game for more hours than i'd care to mention

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy8/screens.html?page=159

maybe you had a crazy playstation?

shbaz · Sat 22/05/2004 02:43:12

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 22/05/2004 02:15:59
i don't recall any whitestuff and i've played that game for more hours than i'd care to mention

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy8/screens.html?page=159

maybe you had a crazy playstation?

That's a shot from a battle scene, which are obviously 3d.. I'm talking about when they were walking around in rooms and such, that is, in every scene except FMV scenes, the world map, or battles.

EDIT:
Yes, they would have had to be in 3d because of the camera angles. All I see that's weird in the screenies is jagged edges, and they didn't really correct that back then. Must have been my playstation, I guess.

MrColossal · Sat 22/05/2004 02:49:42

well just browse the picture index

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy8/screens.html?page=304

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy8/screens.html?page=300

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy8/screens.html?page=284

but anyway, enough of this back to Mr. Topic

stuh505 · Sat 22/05/2004 03:07:51

QuoteI know 7 and 9 weren't that way.. but if 8 wasn't, what was the deal with the white crap around the characters? I remember that it didn't exist in the PC version. Because of that I assumed the chars were 2d sprites, rendered from a 3d prog.

perhaps the version you played did not use an alpha channel, and the PC version did.

TerranRich · Sat 22/05/2004 05:44:44

I love 3D. I love all 3D. I love 3D games. I love 3D graphics.

But I believe firmly that AGS should stay 2D. To go beyond that and implement 3D would no longer make it AGS. It was originally built with Sierra- and LEC-style games in mind. This is the same with implementing higher and higher resolutions. This debate has been done to death before. Sure, it would be nifty to have 3D characters on a 2D background, but then people will want higher resolution, more 3D. And who knows? The 2D might very well be eliminated 5 years from now.

But, of course, it's all up to CJ.

shbaz · Sat 22/05/2004 06:06:29

Well, after a certain point, if he still wants to work on AGS, there's not going to be much more to add to it as a 2d prog. I'd be interested in finding ways to use it alongside already established 3d engines still. Like maybe pulling up a different prog for a worldmap or action sequence. Even for cutscenes.. you could lose a lot of filesize by using realtime cutscenes instead of videos, and keep the quality of 3d art.

big brother · Sat 22/05/2004 08:17:13

I would definitely be interested in a future AGS engine that allows 3d characters against 2d backgrounds. Being able to have different rooms at different angles without redrawing the player sprite would allow for more involving and dramatic storytelling.
I'm not so sure about the technical aspects of it. Considering the time it would take to implement, I'm not sure the idea is feasible (problems like how to import polygon models, etc).

Vel · Sat 22/05/2004 09:16:04

Wintermute supports 3d characters, yufster.

Miez · Sat 22/05/2004 10:04:05

[heresy]

If you really want to do 3D characters on a 2D backdrop (Grim Fandango style) - you're better of with using something else than AGS. I'd suggest DarkBasic or somesuch; it does 3D and 2D and it does it fast enough for an adventure game.

[/heresy]

Pau · Sat 22/05/2004 10:04:19

Quote from: Vel on Sat 22/05/2004 09:16:04
Wintermute supports 3d characters, yufster.

I think they aren't officially supported, but I'm not sure.

If you want 3D you could try RealityFactory http://www.realityfactory.ca
I didn't test it personally, but it seems easy to use and it's free. By the way I still prefer the increase of 2D capabilities of AGS (vector graphics, for exemple) than introducing 3D.

The solution of using 2 different programs would be a good solution if there were some kind of coordination, AGS could execute another exe passing some parameters and recive a return value in order to know what has happened in the other program.