With the subject of how to rejuvenate RoN being mentioned recently, it seems like something that should be discussed and a decision made. Below are several options that seem the most reasonable/able to implement. Some have probably been discussed in the past.
Leave as is â€" No changes are made to the site. The general size of the community will likely remain small as will yearly output of games. Efforts focused in strongly promoting the series to become known and generate interest in new community members.
* Promoting the series is most likely a good thing in any case.
Reduce/Clean up character & game databases â€" Characters who fall under a certain classifications (such as high school students or merchants) or have appeared once/minor use could be bundled together on to one “themed†character page. The more established characters would retain their separate pages. A Wiki could be used as a resource for individual character bios.
Any games that has multiple versions could be condensed into one page. The demos could be moved to the demo page.
Optional: This has been brought up in the past â€" a number of games could be removed and put on a separate location on the site so they would still be available for download. In the past, this idea seems to stem from removing games that are dubious in quality.
Over-arcing theme â€" A scripted event that affects the series in an attempt to generate plot hooks and limit/temporarily remove characters for use.
Core team of writers â€" Rather than rely on the possibility of someone submitting a new game out of the blue, a team is formed with the purpose of generating new content and moving the series forward. The Open submission format would still remain.
Reboot series â€" Series starts over from square one. The general concept is retained as are a few character/character types. For the reboot, the series is given a rough historical outline (and possible city map) to provide a bare-bones structure. Every release from 2001 to the time of series reboot would be kept on a separate page, available for download.
The first two (minus the optional part of the second) seem to be the best way to handle things. RoN wasn't designed to have a 'core team' of anything, just people contributing fun stories, nor was there any theme beyond those made by certain individuals for their own episodes. I don't think a reboot would do anything at all to draw new people, honestly. A complete visual improvement would attract a lot of attention, but it's a two-way situation: On one hand you'd have a ton of new people wanting to make higher quality games, on the other it could dissuade people of modest to no art skill from contributing.
IMO reboot.
Start the series in another point of time or something, this way all the releases remain but you give people opportunity to make games without considering the 100 other games and be scared of it, but you still don't disown what's existing.
For example RON, a 100 years in the future. Everybody we know is dead. The series starts anew in the same town but none of the old characters is allowed. It will give place to change the city, raise new locations, etc. It it still RON and has the ROB brand and prestige but it's in the future so it's basically a new series with no real connection in plot or characters. Someone should make a few new characters for the first game and from there it continues. (P.S no "sons of, grandsons of" etc characters.)
There shouldn't be any limiting on who can submit a RON game. You barely have new games as it is.
I am in favor of putting the DasTobias like games in a separate archive.
Imo, definitely clean up the database. Back when I wrote Root of All Evil, it took me quite a bit of time to read all (well, most) of the DB character entires to figure out what other important characters I was missing. The themes are a good idea, or perhaps simply a division between major and minor chars; I estimate the RONiverse has about 15-20 major characters and about a hundred minor ones.
A core team of writers goes against the entire spirit of RON. Now I'm not in any way a RON oldbie, but I suspect this isn't going to fly well.
Removing a bunch of characters with an over-arcing theme event, time shift, or reboot, well, I don't think that's going to work either. For one, it needs a substantial number of games released under the "new" paradigm to gather enough interest (and conversely, you are unlikely to see that number of games until it has gathered interest). For another, how exactly do you plan on enforcing this?
I agree on a team of core writers.
I think the best thing to do is keep the continuity of the series, allow others to continue the RON town story. But maybe instead of a reboot, we just create a new town and start a series on that. Its all in the same universe as RON, but geographically located elsewhere and characters and such can make Cameo's within the town. Eventually someone can make a game where you can travel to both towns.
Other than that, I do not suggest a reboot. Perhaps an organization project can be started to better organize whats there already.
I don't think much needs changing in the way of RoN. I definitely disagree with a core team of writers and I definitely disagree with rebooting the series. A better organised system for new people to update themselves with the story and characters would be a bonus for the proliferation of RoN games.
The only thing I can think of to do about RON would be a couple of pointers to it here and there, as a good place to learn. It's always been a community thing and anything that restricts the possibilities of it would spoil it. Just so long as noobies find it, then its good.
It's far too much to ask any newcomer to play every game just for the sake of continuity.
The town of Reality on the Norm, with its ensemble cast of wacky characters reminds me very much of Springfields, the Simpsons' home town.
The difference between the two is that RON seems to be more pedantic about continuity, whereas in The Simpsons, each cartoon is a brand new story and it doesn't matter if Homer grows a donut for a head, because you know he'll be back to normal at the beginning of the next episode.
As someone who has only just recently played a couple of RON games, I'd feel much more comfortable trying to write an episode of The Simpsons. I know that I won't make some massive canonical hiccup because I missed some important detail due to not watching every episode. But with RON I would have to do a lot of reseach to make sure I didn't unknowingly ressurect a dead character or something.
I think Stupot may have stumbled upon a pretty good solution here.
Are people playing for the Canon or the characters? A more static, sitcom-like approach could be the way forward. Not that a lot of the game's weren't like that already.
Im pretty sure if something was done with this (http://ron.the-underdogs.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page), then all problems of continuity and running stories would be solved quite promptly.
Hehehe.
The trouble is, even if everything was laid out in the wiki, it would save having to play every single game, but it would still mean that a newcomer might feel obliged read every page of the wiki, for exactly the same reasons.
I'm no RON expert, so it might not be my place to say, but I would suggest encouraging people NOT to worry too much about continuity...
But, on the other hand, we are adventure gamers, and as such we are sticklers for logic and I can fully appreciate why some people would want the RON multiverse to remain as consistant as possible.
The eternal RON future debate, one of my favorite topic. I'll try to keep it short for I'd rather not repeat everything that was said in the previous thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=30866.0).
In the 5 solutions:
Solution #1 and #2 (without the optional part of solution 2) seems the most appropriated for RON.
Solution #3 could work or not. I have the impression that the problem is not that RON lacks interesting story hooks, but that people have different priorities right now than big community projects. Just do a quick poll and you will see there are still a lot of talented people and a lot of long time contributors who want to revisit the town for the Nth time but they'd rather finish their original projects rather than put them on hold to make a RON game.
Solution #4 goes against the principle of RON: a community created universe where everyone can add their own chapter to the series.
As for solution #5, a reboot of RON would be a giant insult for those who spent months of their time to create the current storyline, but also those who are currently working on RON games right now. It would quite possibly result in a drastic drop in interest from everyone who participated in the RON project so far.
Rather than erasing the current RON storyline and start a new one, a much better solution IMO would be simply to let RON continue its existence and create a new collective universe from scratch set in a different place, time, or atmosphere, something completly unrelated to the RON storyline, like they did with Maniac Mansion Mania.
One last think to consider before attempting solution #3 and #5 is: Are there enough people here with enough interest and free time to manage a big community project like RON? RON began and flourished in a time where most people here:
A) were in high school or college and had plenty of freetime in their hands,
B) all awfully lacked the skills and the talent to make the quality games we see today
Back then, RON was a nice way for everyone to have fun, practice their skills and be involved in a great project that wouldn't be overshadowed by games like Pleurghburg, Apprentice or the KQ remakes. Now that people are much more skilled, it wouldn't surprise me if more people nowaday prefered to work on their own project rather than a collective one.
I also think Stupot hit a very interesting nail here.
After reading your post Blueskirt, I have decided that it all boils down to marketing. You mentioned that RON flourished when most of the people were a) younger and b) less skilled, and that it is a great way for people to develop their skills.
In that case. I think a few simple steps would help to get newcomers to AGS to consider making their first game a RON one.
a) There should be a feature about it on the AGS website. And it should be big and brightly visible on the front page so that newcomers automatically consider it as an option. Then they would automatically consider it as a first project. You know, it was ages after I joined AGS until I discovered the RON project. Looking back, if I'd have known about it from the start I might have been more inclined to get involved.
b) Perhaps there should be a RON section on the AGS forum... I know the RON website has it's own facilities, but at the moment it feels kind of separate to AGS, when really, AGS is RON's mother. And also, it would be handy for newbies to be able to ask on the boards for help with their RON game, and those who are skilled and experienced might be more inclined to get involved by helping the newbies. This would ensure that 1) more games get made and 2) there remains some level of quality in them.
I'm just thinking out loud here... I should be writing an essay... you can guarantee that if I was given "Discuss RoN's Future" as an essay title, I would get bored and start ranting about phonology instead, just to waste time.
Reboot Reboot Reboot.
The cast is too large and full of some redundant characters, some rather awful characters.
We are all grown up now, but our characters haven't really evolved. The town is laid out in a clumsy way due to people adding locations here and there.
Characters need new profiles, the town need to be better planned. I don't suggest getting rid of what has come before if they are integral to the series. It was supposed to be a fun project, and a fun place to set games in. There are just soo many characters to choose from, so many different locations, and it's difficult, unless you have played every RON game, to have this knowledge. Yes the wiki would be a great idea, but what we have at the moment.
And I guess everyone who mentions the Marketing of RON. I realise that if I were new to AGS, I wouldn't know that RON is the place to start. I don't think I'd know it exists.
And for the reboot thing. I don't want all the characters to be dead or anything, or have it set in space. Just to ignore all the canon that came before and start afresh.
The suggestions in the initial post were culled from things people have said over the years. They were presented to provide as many suggestions as possible to kick off this discussion and hopefully inspire other ideas.
<Ron admin hat off, community member hat on>
Personally, I'd prefer if things were left as is, with perhaps a tightening up of the games & character databases. Of all the ideas that have come up over the years (see first post) none have seemed to me like the right thing to do. I feel that RoN is still a viable and worthwhile idea with loads of untapped potential. If I didn't I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I have.
I realize that the number of games & characters is enough to turn people away. Perhaps an introductory primer could be devised to introduce the series concept, some of characters and a general history to ease people into RoN. It might cut down on the feeling of having to do research, and allow someone to discover the other characters at their own leisure if they so choose.
As for continuity versus stand-alone games, I think that’s happened to an extent, even if no-one’s stamped a “stand alone†label on certain games. Some people, my self-included, like the idea of a progressive universe where characters have the opportunity to “live†as it were. It wouldn’t be too difficult to accommodate both type, maybe we just need a big rubber stamp.
What needs to happen, I think, is RoN needs to be promoted and get the word out that it exists, what it is (and what it’s not) and where to find it.
Finally, as for a reboot: I can see the argument for it and how it could be interesting. It does leave anyone who’s in the midst of game production to either attempt to get their game finished before the reboot date, or go back and start reworking their game to fit in a rebooted universe.
Quote from: Renegade Implementor on Wed 07/01/2009 02:18:55
It does leave anyone who’s in the midst of game production to either attempt to get their game finished before the reboot date, or go back and start reworking their game to conform to a rebooted universe.
Doesn't that depend on how the reboot is done? If people start working on RoN 2.0 (or whatever) new games can be RoN 2 games while people could still make 'original' RoN games if they wanted. If the difference between the old and new versions is made obvious enough, couldn't the two coexist?
Personally I'd like the reboot approach; I've never gone near making a RoN game for worry of misusing characters or locations, or messing up a time-line, and not wanting to do hundreds of games-worths research.
I've considered doing a RoN-game, I love the concept and the idea that something like this exists, but it was just too daunting. OneDollar probably has the right idea as far as I'm concerned, but the problem is, how to prevent 2.0 from being just as impenetrable before long? My suggestion would be to unleash anarchy in RoN 1.0 and have a few ground rules for RoN 2.0. I agree that the "core team" idea goes against the idea behind it, but there are some stages in between police state and total anarchy. I'd like to see the veterans of the community create some key "untouchable" characters that should always be restored to their original state by the end of each game; we can't kill them, overthrow them or significantly alter them in any way. That would go a long way to preserve a certain continuity and allow the canon to be presented in a short & sweet manner for newbies.
Instead of a long-winded wiki entry, someone could always make a primer game about RoN that introduces all the central characters with short, narrator bios that pop up when they are first introduced, as well as a small pop up narration about their location. You could of course add some gameplay as well, but it would definitely serve to introduce any new people to the most important characters and locations of the series as well as provide a little back story. Kind of like condensing a bunch of flashback scenes together :D.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Wed 07/01/2009 15:07:34
Instead of a long-winded wiki entry, someone could always make a primer game about RoN that introduces all the central characters with short, narrator bios that pop up when they are first introduced, as well as a small pop up narration about their location. You could of course add some gameplay as well, but it would definitely serve to introduce any new people to the most important characters and locations of the series as well as provide a little back story. Kind of like condensing a bunch of flashback scenes together :D.
This. THIS. THIS I SAY!!!
Quote from: OneDollar on Wed 07/01/2009 13:49:19
If the difference between the old and new versions is made obvious enough, couldn't the two coexist?
I think that the old version continuing is fundamentally incompatible with the idea of a reboot (and, mind you, I prefer the former).
ProgZMax's idea is a good one, just before I read that post I was thinking of suggesting that perhaps some people with nothing better to do redo all the character bios and list all of the important events that have happened to each character in the games in which they've appeared, so that if someone wants to use character X in a RoN game all they have to do is read the bio to know if their idea will go against some previously-established canon.
There's a point. The currently existing bios are woefully out of date, and are essentially one or two sentence summaries of what happened to them in the first twenty or so games.
Having said that, I'm all for restructing the bios completly into sections that reflect their prominence. Right now its been a case of all new characters have a thumbnail that's put onto the end of the current list. Something along the lines of catagories for protagonists, major secondary characters, minor secondary characters and 'on offs' would be a great help.
Quote from: Radiant on Wed 07/01/2009 15:59:14
Quote from: OneDollar on Wed 07/01/2009 13:49:19
If the difference between the old and new versions is made obvious enough, couldn't the two coexist?
I think that the old version continuing is fundamentally incompatible with the idea of a reboot (and, mind you, I prefer the former).
I meant it more as a temporary thing than a permanently having two versions - there's no reason to just stop RoN, throw out all the information and tell anyone halfway through a game that they can't finish it unless they make it compatible with the new version. Work could be started on version 2 with anyone planning a new game strongly recommended to use it, while version 1 is allowed to stop on its own accord.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Wed 07/01/2009 15:07:34
Instead of a long-winded wiki entry...
A great idea, and I agree that I'd be much more likely to download a game than browse through loads of wiki pages. Would it be kept up to date though? Would you have it developed by a small core team? If it did interest people in developing RoN again then it'd get out of date quite quickly.
I also don't think its a replacement for a good, detailed wiki. Suppose someone just wanted to check a fact or two about a character or location, or search for something specific. That'd be hard to find in a game. While it might be a good introduction you can't rely on it for more than just an overview of the RoN universe.
Maybe RoN's wiki needs building, along with some general formatting rules, then suggest that its game authors' responsibilities to update the relevant pages when they make a game?
Someone said earlier that the option of separating a few of the lesser quality games had been considered, but that it would be disrespectful to the authors of those games.
So how about going in the other direction? If say, 25-30 of the better quality games were set aside as canonical. So that at the very least, newcomers would have to know a little bit about thse games, but not have to worry about the other ones, unless they chose otherwise... Perhaps these could be known as the RON Hall of Fame. Then whenever a new game is made, it undergoes a rating process and only games that reach a certain standard will be added to the 'Hall of fame' and their storylines added to the official canon.
I was playing around with a couple more ideas after I posted that, and I've come up with a few that would be cool (although whether they're feasible is another matter entirely)
I'm not sure how you'd do this or if it's even possible, but having some kind of interactive online "game builder" where you get a dropdown list of all of the characters in RoN to date and can add them to some kind of "castlist" which then pulls info on them all and lists major events that have happened to them. This is probably a stupid idea and you may feel free to lynch me for even suggesting it.
And ProgZ had a good point about the wiki. It'd be good if someone dedicated enough to RoN's future were to play through all the games and create a fully updated wiki (heck, I'd do it myself if nobody else was up to the challenge)
But I'm pretty new here, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. :P I just wanted to help keep alive what I've seen as a great stepping stone into the community
Just had a thought, rather than push the AGS-RON connection why not spread the word to some of the other game creation communities?
A lot of other engines that in their infancy have promise but the respective communities can't really seem to get to grips with what they're doing; they need a reality-on-the-norm. And seeing as how the original RON needs games it may as well be OUR Reality-on-the-norm.
I do think pimping out the best 25-30 games or so would be a very good idea. How about this:
Step 1 - Pick all the games that have a more or less coherant plot and defined place in the canon.
Step 2 - Catagorise those games as Season 1, mix them around so it ends on one of the more 'epic in scope' games. I'm thinking the final part of Dylan Downing's 'Tapestry' series, nothing says season finale like 'collapse of the fabric of the universe'.
Step 3 - Set all new games 2-3 years after the most recent game in the series (which was around 2003, so make that 2005).
Step 4 - Call those new games Season 2, or The New Adventures, or something. Set these ones apart by encouraging the most recent, polished and consistent backgrounds and character sprites, along with a general increase in polish to seperate from the first season.
Step 5 - ????
Step 6 - PROFIT.
In all honesty I think RON's future should be for me to hijack all the sprites for module demos and supply no credits. Heh.
*On an unrelated note, I should include credits in my demos...
What are we trying to accomplish here? If it is to increase the popularity of the RONiverse and encourage the production of more RoN games then I think we should first be asking what's wrong with it as it now exists and then think about what changes are needed to right those wrongs.
Barrier to Entry
From the previous discussion it would seem that the main problem is that there is a substantial barrier to entry due to the requirement of adhering to cannon and a lack of documentation of what the cannon actually is. The idea that one must play every game to know the cannon doesn't scale at all and has not been practical, I suspect, in a very long time.
I think Stupot has a great idea and his example of the Simpson's is spot on. The way to achieve this is to write detailed biographies of each character. Such a biography would describe the character's personality, education, major or life changing events that have happened to the character. This doesn't need to include every single event that has ever happened in every single game. Just like in the Simpsons you don't need to remember every single thing that Homer did in every single episode to know his personality or how he would react in this or that situation.
If there was a wiki for this purpose then such biographies could develop over time via multiple contributors. A sprite starting out as a minor character could evolve over time and eventually become a major character. The only rule is that you would have to respect what has come before. If the initial creator writes in the biography that the character served in the military then subsequent contributors are obligated to not change that history. Contributors would also be obligated to use characters consistent with their biographies. Homer Simpson doesn't behave in an un-Homerish manner unless there is a good explanation for it. For example, we wouldn't expect Homer to do anything remotely intelligent, but if he were possessed by Albert Einstein's ghost then we wouldn't be surprised if he were suddenly brilliant.
The same could be done for specific locations. For example Scid's could also have the equivalent of a biography which would describe the kind of place it is, the kind of people who frequent the place, and perhaps some of the more notable events in it's history.
I think this is a much easier way to go than trying to keep track of a lengthy and ever growing cannon. If there is a good cast of developed characters where people come to know and love them then it is much easier to write stories about them, IMHO.
Lack of Visibility
The other problem mentioned in this discussion is the lack of visibility on the AGS forums and website. New folks are always asking about the availability of resources, especially character sprites, so they are either not aware of RoN or are dissuaded from using it's resources.
Perhaps an introduction page as part of the AGS website that includes links to the resources, the RoN forum, and that states the terms of use for the resources in clear and concise language. I'm think something like the creative-commons-attribution-non-comercial-share-alike would be in order.
Quality of Graphics
From what I could gleam from the discussion to this point is that shiny new graphics may attract new developers to RoN but it may also discourage developers with lower artistic skills.
Aren't the RoN resources are done in 8-bit color? If so perhaps conversion to 16-bit color would provide an easy way of polishing the existing graphics and make them easier to work with (for some).
Also, for a long time now I have been thinking that the results of the effort expended in the "Competitions and Activities" forum are being wasted. It seems to me that with the addition of a few simple rules the output produced by many of the activities there could be harnessed. The following rules would be helpful for example:
1. All entries are published under above mentioned creative-commons license and permanently archived on-line (americangirlscouts.com and archive.org. come to mind).
2. Character sprites drawn to a standard scale(s) and color depth(s). Perhaps one standard for low res and another for high-res.
3. Backgrounds drawn to one of a number of standard styles, resolutions, etc.
4. Other sprites drawn to one of a number of standard sizes so that they could be used for inventory items, objects/props such as chairs, tables, etc (in which case they would use above standard character scaling), or GUI buttons.
Well I think you get the idea. Why not harness the effort already being expended to generate artistic resources that can be used by the community. After all the programmers among us have created (and continue to create) a wealth of modules for everyone's benefit without complaint.
====================
Assuming that a decision is made to do something new with RoN then we come to the problem of how to combine the existing stuff with the new stuff. I think DC has the right idea here but I think "season" is not quite the right terminology. What if we did something like they do with the Star Trek series where they all have the same main title and a different sub-title for each series. So we could have different sub-titles for different categories of games something like:
- "RON: Reality on the Norm" - Existing and future canonical games. Games must adhere to cannon just like now. People can go on making games for this category.
- "RON: The New Reality" - Uses polished background graphics, character and location resources are used consistent with their descriptions or biographies, ala "The Simpsons". Adherence to cannon is not required.
- "RON: Under Shorts" - Same as "The New Reality" except very short game (i.e. playable in an hour or some such time frame). Perhaps this would be the equivalent of a comic strip, an elaborate joke. or a making philosophical point. This would provide an outlet for those spontaneous inspirations some of us have and something useful to do for the rest of us. ;) Maybe this is a good way of getting people started with RON.
- "RON: Abnormal Circumstances" - ????
- "RON: In the Year 2525" - Same as "The New Reality" except set way in the future ...
- "RON: Unbound" - Experimental games to include first trys, prof of concept, and other experiments. No rules with regard to story line etc. Just allow use of resources to conduct experiments or just learn AGS. For example, someone could make game to learn how to open a door with a key from inventory and then release it as a tutorial.
I think you get the idea. The actual sub-titles would of course be determined by further discussion and consensus or some other means. Each game would then be like an episode in one of the title-subtitle categories.
Incorporate it with AGS more. This is the AGS hub. RON is AGS too, so why can't it have a more permanent home here?
- Huw
Yeh, even a RON link, up there in between 'wiki' and 'logout' would surely draw more people in.
RickJ speaks truth here. In particular, Unbound could be a good place to put things like the quizzes, DasTobias's more surreal entries, and all the ones that don't really belong/detract from the more contemporary feel of the other games.
A bit like CSI. Eash series being set in the same 'universe' but prety much being kept apart, bar the occasional controlled crossover.
I've recently cross posted RickJ's suggestions over to the RON forum, and also posted suggestions on where the current games can go based on his catagories. (http://ron.the-underdogs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4262#4262)
As you can see, it looks as though they'd be spread out quite nicely. Thoughts?
EDIT - From my post on the RON boards - I'm thinking that The New Reality may be implying that it's more of a reboot as opposed to new RON games that are more standalone in nature/not as dependant on the main series' running story. Maybe something like RON: A Day in the Life?
Sorry for double posting, but we're getting ready to make some decisions based on the ideas we've had so far. So, if anyone wants to add any more input, now's the time.
I am just watching from a distance, but personally, I've never cared about canon, which is why a huge number of characters "leave" in my game, and why the end leads toward the possibility of alternate Rons where pretty much anything could happen.
I kind of think that if you want a reboot, you may as well write a whole new scenario and new characters, boot it up, run until that idea runs out of steam and then reboot again. No reason you can't create a whole new community project with new rules and new characters.
But whatever you do, it won't be the first time RON was retooled. And there may well be no effect. So do what you like.
One thing: rules? Defining some games as quality enough and some as not? These seem like fool's errands an highly subjective. Personally the games I enjoyed most are the ones by Captain Mostly and others that didn't really fit to the overarching story and basically abused the RON characters as if they were a simple graphics pack.
However, graphical upgrades would always be great.
I think it comes down to two things:
Visibility - more people need to know about RoN
Accessibility - updated bios, searchable databases of characters and (especially) games. It was irritating that even when I knew what RoN game I was after I had to scroll through nine pages of games because I had no idea what the release number was. Okay, it accommodates playing them in order, but they should be sortable by name and rating at the very least.
I'm not sure anything can be done to 'improve the games' which seems to be the angle some people are looking at it from - they are what people make them, as simple as that. I think trying to change that would be against the spirit of RoN.
I don't think too many people are suggesting that old games are changed but that the graphic quality of newer games is improved by way of better sprites and backgrounds, which I agree with. People are far more likely to play a game that looks polished than they are a game that looks cobbled together, which in all honesty is how most of the RoN games look to me. The unfortunate thing is that if you can look past the graphics, as I have, there are some really good RoN games, but many people won't even download some of the games they way they look. I think this is a good reason to update the templates to something better looking.
Sorry for the confusion, I'm all for the new graphics being brought into RoN - when the series started all AGS games looked like that, but the community has come a long way and it has a certain 'stuck in a time warp' look to it - I was referring to the suggested policies for somehow improving authorial quality of the new games across the board such as 'core team of writers' and 'reboot' etcetera. RoN is open submission, so what it is is what the community makes it, and I don't think that should really be changed given the fact that the charm of the series is essentially due to those simple facts.
Right peoples, suggestions for recatagorising the game and character databases are ago-go, along with talks of promotion. Take a gander and feel free to chip in. (http://ron.the-underdogs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1=739&start=15)
The RoN forum is temporarily closed for new registration as we're working through a technical issue. As such, here's what has been proposed. After going through the feedback, we're going to try a database reorganization which proved the most popular choice (if you go by a tally).
RoN Database changes:
Games database
The games database would be split into the following sections.
1 â€" Canon games â€" Games that are crucial in understanding both the RoN universe and the characters that inhabit it. The games in this section are considered canonical and part of the RoN universe timeline. The events in these games are set in stone. Anyone new to RoN and wants to know the timeline and crucial events should go to this section.
2 â€" Stand-alone games â€" Games in this section are generally self-contained with no major influences on the RoN universe. While not strictly set in stone, games in this section can be considered to exist in the RoN universe â€" they just don’t have an official status. Games in this section generally concentrate on character moments rather than important, world-changing events.
3 â€" Experimental, non-canon games â€" Games in this section are not considered to exist in the RoN universe at all. Events and characters in this section should generally not be referred to in canon or (to a lesser extent) stand-along games. As games in this section are isolated from an official canon, character death is permitted.
4 â€" Non-adventure games â€" A section for games that are non-adventure: quiz, rpg, action, platform, strategy, etc.
** option - keep separate or merge with #5 ?? **
5 â€" Trailers, demos â€" A section for game trailers, game demos, and technical demos
Characters
Important characters will still retain their separate database page. These characters are ones who have been used more frequently or have an important place in the RoN universe.
Other characters will be condensed into a single page, wherever possible. As such: all merchants will be complied into a single page, high school students will be complied into a single page, and so forth.
Art
A movement in improving RoN’s art is underway. This style continues/is heavily based upon the graphics Krysis has done for RoN. See this LINK (http://ron.the-underdogs.info/images/misc/stuf/090129-readyforanm.png) an example (1st draft) of the style for characters. These are low-res but are easy to manipulate into new characters.
Promoting
RoN can't exist in isolation. A presence on the AGS page in the form of a link or something would be helpful. Getting the word out to other sites would also be beneficial, perhaps the creation of banners to advertise? Also, possibly getting word out to other gaming sites might prove beneficial.
Quote from: Renegade Implementor on Fri 06/02/2009 16:37:31
4 â€" Non-adventure games â€" A section for games that are non-adventure: quiz, rpg, action, platform, strategy, etc.
** option - keep separate or merge with #5 ?? **
5 â€" Trailers, demos â€" A section for game trailers, game demos, and technical demos
I believe Trailers and Demos should remain in category 5 and not to be merged with 4.
Quote
RoN can't exist in isolation. A presence on the AGS page in the form of a link or something would be helpful.
Honestly, I didn't know RON was a large community with dozens of games made by multiple people until the past few months when these threads started emerging.
Perhaps a separate section in the BigBlueCup games page, where you can search for RON games would be helpful to spread the word? (Obviously just those made by AGS)
Does the death of Underdogs mean that the whole RON stuff is lost? Please tell me someone had it backed up.... :'(
Having heard the news (thanks SSH), just because it looks like RoN is temporarily homeless doesn't mean that this discussion should end or signal RoN's death. HOTU ending just means RoN needs to find a new home and one of the HOTU admins might resurrect HOTU somewhere else, you never know.
As for for the files, everything has been backed up as far as I know. The only thing that may have been lost is the most recent game pages which are easily replicated.
Maybe this could be a cue to whisper sweet nuthin's into CJ's ear and have him host RON? Keep the individual website, but just provide hosting and possibly a link on the main page?
I have no problem with hosting RON on the AGS server, but I think the reason they originally didn't want that was because RON was supposed to be independant and open to games made with all adventure game engines.
However, if the time has now come for us to just host the site on this server, and create a RON sub-forum on these forums, then that's fine with me.
I wouldn't mind having a RoN wiki. You could divide it into two parts. One that's serves as an introduction / overview for gamers new to RoN. And a second, more comprehensive (read: spoiler-riffic) section for developers of future games.
When I first discovered AGS back in 2004, I toyed with the idea of doing a RoN game. But even back then, it was a daunting prospect, trying to grapple with all that continuity.
To avoid these problems, I sketched out a silly, Lovecraftian tale of horror, elder gods, and first dates gone terribly wrong and set it back in the 1920s to avoid the "RoN of Today." But even that raised questions. Would I be riding roughshod over established back story? Had the history of RoN been sketched out to include the 1920s? Was Reality on the Norm even around back in the 20s? Had horrible, tentacled things from outer space visited RoN on a blind date before? Did RoN have a town newspaper? And if so, did newspapers have personal ads back in the 1920s? (Okay, that last one wasn't a RoN issue. I was just too lazy to look it up. We didn't have Wikipedia back then. Okay, maybe be did. But I can't be bothered to Google it.).
After a while, I just chucked it. The sheer, fixed-yet-somehow-anarchic bulk of RoN and its continuity was too daunting. But if we had a wiki for developers (rather than expecting them to play every RoN game ever made - just the sort of sanity-shattering endeavor that Lovecraft wrote about), then other people just discovering AGS might be more eager to dive into RoN that I was.
Just my two cents.
- Ponch
Quote from: Pumaman on Tue 17/02/2009 18:08:22
I have no problem with hosting RON on the AGS server, but I think the reason they originally didn't want that was because RON was supposed to be independant and open to games made with all adventure game engines.
However, if the time has now come for us to just host the site on this server, and create a RON sub-forum on these forums, then that's fine with me.
And to be honest, if somebody came to this forum and said "Hey guys, I know that I didn't make it in AGS, but I made this great adventure game" and it was actually half decent, I wouldn't object. Just because we all love AGS doesn't mean that we can't enjoy a game made in another engine, right?
- Huw
Ponch - You mean to tell me that you had the oppertunity to make a 1920s Lovecraftian RON... and you DIDN'T?!
HANG AND CASTRATE CONTINUITY MAN, I WOULD HAVE PLAYED AND LOVED EVERY SECOND OF IT, PAUSING ONLY TO MAKE LOVE TO ITS FINELY SCUPLTED ORIFICES.
Ahem. Sorry, Lovecraft is near and dear to my heart. I do hope you will have the oppertunity to bring your ideas to fruition, I would so love to see it. But yes, your concerns are well made, and if all goes to plan then the new shakeup will address such problems.
Punaman - :D :D :D
Quote from: DC on Wed 18/02/2009 01:37:37
Ponch - You mean to tell me that you had the oppertunity to make a 1920s Lovecraftian RON... and you DIDN'T?!
HANG AND CASTRATE CONTINUITY MAN, I WOULD HAVE PLAYED AND LOVED EVERY SECOND OF IT, PAUSING ONLY TO MAKE LOVE TO ITS FINELY SCUPLTED ORIFICES.
I wanted to make one, yes. I had a "flapper" style character (who may or may not have been Mika's grandmother -- I hadn't decided), an inept cult using a speakeasy as a front, and a socially awkward cthulu-styled space monster responding to a lonely professor of the occult's personal ad. Love and terror were in the air!
Sadly, it was not to be. But who knows? It might happen one day... when the stars are right! (cue spooky theremin music sting!)
- Ponch
A thought about promotion ...
How about gearing some of the contests and activities towards the RoN universe so that additional resources may be generated. If all submissions were made with a suitable CC license and then archived somewhere then there would be an ever increasing supply of reasources. The ones deemed of suitable quality could be included categorized as "RoN" and the others as "Non-RoN"
CJ- that's an amazingly generous offer. Thank you very much.
Ponch- I hope your idea does eventually see the light of day. It would be nice to see more games make use of different time periods and really explore the possibilities of different settings.
A belated happy birthday to RoN, btw.
Quote from: Renegade Implementor on Fri 06/02/2009 16:37:31
4 â€" Non-adventure games â€" A section for games that are non-adventure: quiz, rpg, action, platform, strategy, etc.
This seems like an odd distinction to me. Putting quiz games in a separate category makes sense, I guess, but all the other categories deal with the degree to which each game reflects the established canon, whereas this category clearly deals with gameplay genre. It seems to suggest that all non-adventure games deserve the same canon status (I'm assuming non-canon, since I'm sure at least some definitely belong there), but is there any reason why a well crafted RPG or platformer, for instance, that does nothing to contradict the established canon, should be barred from the Stand-Alone and Canon categories?
I get that RoN is primarily an Adventure Game series, and that it might be useful to distinguish games made in different genres from the standard type, but I don't think this is the best way to do it. How difficult would it be to add another dimension to your database, so you have a canon dimension and a genre dimension? Some sort of labeling system? Or even just a button that allows you to filter out non-adventures while you browse?
Maybe that makes things too complicated, I dunno. Just my thoughts.
I remember when there was a time I had a keen interest to build a RotN game but that time came and went back in the prolific days of Reality. Sadly I lost track of the story, characters and general happenings and with my bad track record of getting a RotN game completed I didn't feel that anything would fit into the story arc; if you can even say it had one.
Perhaps this re-visit to RotN will entice me back in, even if it's just a short game, but I feel that if I were to do anything I'd definitely need help from some Wiki or better organised source of information so I can get myself back on track without having to play every single RotN game.
I'd very much like to see the Reality boards or games section appear on BigBlueCup and if Chris is okay with all that it would be a potentially large project but would benefit the series in the long run. I think it would also help many people in taking their first steps to building their own game.
I definatly think that having a continuous presence on the AGS boards will entice many AGSer's to RON. It's also become abundantly clear that the biggest barrier to currently creating a game at the moment can be solved by a basic synopsis of the current story, along with detailed summaries/continuity notes for each individual game.
Interesting times, to be sure...
Quote from: Ponch on Tue 17/02/2009 20:43:26
I wouldn't mind having a RoN wiki.
Technically, there is a RotN Wiki (http://www.editthis.info/realityonthenorm/Main_Page), but it's pretty much inactive.