Hey everybody, just thought I'd post this link (from Lucasfans boards) here in case you're interested in reading it. It's basically my personal complaint about "New Adventures of Zak McKracken"'s negative and inaccurate information of my country. So, in case you're interested and/or want to state feedback:
http://mmforums.gamersepitome.net/viewtopic.php?t=552
I suppose it's in this board as it is adventure related...
It's just a game...
So what? If you want to be offended by someone making a game then you're going to have a hard life, in my opinion.
Colombia doesn't have a jungle, that's really offensive to you?
Seriously, it's just a game. It's not that important.
Also: Has anyone ever been kidnapped in Bogota? If so then is it really that much of a stretch for someone to be kidnapped in a fake pretend game?
There are tons and tons and tons of games where people get kidnapped in the United States, it's not a sleight against the United States, it's just a plot point.
Inaccurate and mildly annoying? Perhaps...
Politically offensive and worth of a calling to arms? Um... woah.
Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/06/2005 04:07:48
It's just a game...
So what? If you want to be offended by someone making a game then you're going to have a hard life, in my opinion.
Colombia doesn't have a jungle, that's really offensive to you?
Seriously, it's just a game. It's not that important.
Also: Has anyone ever been kidnapped in Bogota? If so then is it really that much of a stretch for someone to be kidnapped in a fake pretend game?
There are tons and tons and tons of games where people get kidnapped in the United States, it's not a sleight against the United States, it's just a plot point.
I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. Regarding how it's just a game and it should not be offensive about how they kidnap her in Bogotá, I would say the following:
I do agree that under an objective point of view it's not really offensive. Thing is that I do think that the decition of where they took the kidnapped girl was not really that objective; in other words, it sounds like at some point in game design they thought "Ok, let's think of international terrorists or the like. I know, they kidnap her and take her to Columbia! Let's search in Google to see what the capital of Columbia is, so that we can put a real name to the city"....
Nevertheless, I do agree that I can get touchy about that, it's just that as a Colombian I have heard many people from different places say things like "Oh, you're from Colombia, you're not a terrorist, are you?", and in great part it's because our country has become a great "example" for stupid movies, computer games (Zak's not the first one in which I've seen inaccuracies), etc..
Anyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is people should do proper research when making scenes (be it movies, games or whatever) about places they don't know...
Finally, it's not only that; if I make a game where the bad guy is (for example) an international terrorist, it does matter which nationality I give him. If he's from Irak, probably not too many people in Irak (as in common people from Irak) will just think of it as "It's a movie" and not take any offense, but if it's a lunatic from say "Germany" there would probably be less chances that people take it the wrong way... It's probably difficult to fully understand for people who are not from countries that have served as "the bad guys" in movies, games, news and conversations worldwide, but the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference.
Again, I know I'm touchy about this, but I think it's normal to be touchy about something that has been "rubbed on your face" worldwide many times. And I don't really want to start an issue here, I just wanted to "state my point" and ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.
"the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference."
In a way, I don't think it makes a difference at all where they took her. It matters to the story and their plot yes but to anything else? I doubt they were trying to make a political commentary...
If they took her to Detroit or Harlem and were militant black people would you find that offensive or is it only because it's your country?
If they took her to the middle of Sweden people could be offended saying "Hey! Swedes aren't terrorists! Don't portray us as such!" and then we get into the problem of not being able to make anyone the bad guy for fear of hurting someone's feelings.
All of the Police Quest games [to my knowledge] take place in the United States and I don't think a single person has ever had a problem with the setting in relation to the content. I certainly don't care that murder and serial killing and drunk driving and bike gangs and drug deals are portrayed in a game set in the US because that stuff happens. And even if it didn't it's just a game.
I'm not saying you can't have an opinion or a feeling but posting it in such a way... I dunno, wouldn't it have been better to contact the dev team who made the game specifically and ask them some questions before assuming all of this?
If your post was about research and how important it can be to making a game, I agree, but it just comes off as you being angry about the game.
As far as not wanting to start an issue: You might want to change the thread title or something, that isn't really not starting an issue, the same on the zak boards, you don't like how they made their game, how are they going to like you joining their forums to basically call them stupid and bad people?
Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/06/2005 05:04:43
"the fact that they chose Colombia as the place where they took her once kidnapped does make a slight difference."
In a way, I don't think it makes a difference at all where they took her. It matters to the story and their plot yes but to anything else? I doubt they were trying to make a political commentary...
If they took her to Detroit or Harlem and were militant black people would you find that offensive or is it only because it's your country?
If they took her to the middle of Sweden people could be offended saying "Hey! Swedes aren't terrorists! Don't portray us as such!" and then we get into the problem of not being able to make anyone the bad guy for fear of hurting someone's feelings.
All of the Police Quest games [to my knowledge] take place in the United States and I don't think a single person has ever had a problem with the setting in relation to the content. I certainly don't care that murder and serial killing and drunk driving and bike gangs and drug deals are portrayed in a game set in the US because that stuff happens. And even if it didn't it's just a game.
I'm not saying you can't have an opinion or a feeling but posting it in such a way... I dunno, wouldn't it have been better to contact the dev team who made the game specifically and ask them some questions before assuming all of this?
If your post was about research and how important it can be to making a game, I agree, but it just comes off as you being angry about the game.
As far as not wanting to start an issue: You might want to change the thread title or something, that isn't really not starting an issue, the same on the zak boards, you don't like how they made their game, how are they going to like you joining their forums to basically call them stupid and bad people?
Final reply (I hope :-) )
Regarding location: I do maintain my position. It does matter, and I don't really think you can't put anyone as the bad guy, I think it's just about thinking it clearly, and doing things right. If it's in Colombia, fine, but if it's in Colombia, and the main character reaches Bogotá, and it's supposed to be a jungle and nothing else, then I do feel that it's being portrayed as "Colombia is a pesky little country full of jungles and terrorists".
Regarding asking the questions to the team first, I did look for a "contact us" link and couldn't find it, so I went for the forums (I've just edited my post over there)
Finally, you're right about how my point regarding research goes downhill because of emotionallity. I've just edited my post over there, and state it here: It's important to do research, not only to give accurate information, but because it gives more chances of not saying something that someone can take the wrong way.
To a certain degree I agree that that could be found offensive...
I think it's more like, if the creators of the game are basing it off of real-life things and real places (such as the airport mentioned), they should at least get their facts straight. And if they don't, it's a pity, but not that big of a deal.
I can see your point, but I disagree. Every single country has its stereotype. Stereotypes make game making much easier, there is less need to explain why a character does something or has certain behaviours. For example, there is a stereotype (at least in my country the UK) of Columbian Drug Barons, where columbian gangs run drugs through the USA. Be it true or not, its well known. Therefore, if you wanted a drug baron in a game, it would be the easiest to make him columbian. If you made him german, people would require an explanation as to his nationality.
I'm not saying this is okay, it's just true. It's also true of many other nationalities. The british are posh, the germans are nazis, the russians are communist terrorists, i could go on, but I hope you see my point.
Take Sam and Max for instance. Something tells me there isn't a real crime-fighting saddistic rabbit and dog going around trying to solve the mystery of Bigfoot...
See my point?
I know that that game is more cartoony and unrealistic, but even in Zak Mcraken I doubt he can fit that many items in his jacket, even if it was a very fine leather jacket.
All I'm trying to say is that the majority of the world bases ideas of locations on Stereotypes, and Americans are worst known for this. Most would believe we British people sit around drinking tea and eating porridge while watching the afternoon cricket in a suit from our castle windows.
You're not meant to take offense by innacuracy's based on common views to make a setting, the whole world is based on stereotyping and common ideas to symbolise and relate to certain locations.
I do agree to the extent that when placing a game in a realistic location, it should be based on realistic locations.
Quote from: rozojc on Tue 07/06/2005 04:43:35
I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. d ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.
Hello? This is a game which takes place partly on the moon, not your geographic education software! For god's sake... Don't you have anything else to do with your time than such scrap? Should bus drivers feel offeneded because they are sleeping in this game instead of doing their job? How about animal rights-activist, I mean, hell, this fish tank for sushi definetely is too small and not appropriate for that kind of fish! And how about men with big nose, glasses and a mustache... do you think its fun for them being mocked in that game? Jessas Herrgott...
I agree with Totoro... Relax. The author was not trying to annoy anybody, I am sure.
Humour must go in both directions. When I laugh after telling Mr. Colossal he's a dirty Pretzel eater Yankee I am not showing my sense of humour if I do not laugh too when he tells me I am a Omellete of potato eater bullfighter.
Make a game (Zack 3) and make humour of German people! I am sure LucasFan will enjoy if you put there some buckett heads eating Bratswurts. :D
Quote from: Totoro on Tue 07/06/2005 12:29:20
Quote from: rozojc on Tue 07/06/2005 04:43:35
I agree with what you say about the jungle. Although I do think that their level of inaccuracy in that is something that they could have avoided by making a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) research in Google. d ask people to do better research when talking about places they don't know.
Hello? This is a game which takes place partly on the moon, not your geographic education software! For god's sake... Don't you have anything else to do with your time than such scrap? Should bus drivers feel offeneded because they are sleeping in this game instead of doing their job? How about animal rights-activist, I mean, hell, this fish tank for sushi definetely is too small and not appropriate for that kind of fish! And how about men with big nose, glasses and a mustache... do you think its fun for them being mocked in that game? Jessas Herrgott...
I may agree on that it was not done to annoy anybdoy, as well that of using stereotypes to easily fix a character. But I definitely won't agree with how it's not important to take into account inaccuracies just because the game is fiction. It's the same as with writers, they usually go through a research process when writing about any place, and when they don't it just takes off credibility, and I'm not talking about credibility in terms of plausibility, but in terms of being believable in the given context.
Maybe the big difference is that writers earn money with books. If they piss it of with innaccuracies they won't eat.
An amateur game maker will eat no matter how many innaccuracies he may commit.
What you're trying to force is a "IMPORTANT: DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME IF YOU FEEL YOU WON'T LIKE IT OR ITS HUMOUR" notice in all the AGS games. That would really suck, IMO.
Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.
He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.
It's important to do some research for your games, specially if you want to make a serious narrative with real-life locations.
However, I don't expect much from a fan game made by amateurs... and who knows if the originally Zak was indeed 100% accurate? I know they at least got San Francisco right because they lived there, but what about the rest of the world?
Who cares, anyway. :P
Aye! Brazil is in the same boat on this game.
But, dude: chill out! I'm pretty sure we can get our revenge when we picture US as a cold, capitalist, belicous, egocentric (yadda yadda yadda, all the third-world that is ALSO generalizing crap I'm used to listen to, down here :P).
I'm obviusly kidding. What I'm trying to tell you is that WE also have stereotypes about countries we've never been to. And it's a bad thing to picture Brazil as being a aglutinate of trees (and I would probably do 10x the research the author of this game did, just to show how much I care about other people's countries as my latin ego is also wounded), but I figured it wasn't an intencional offense. It would be offencive if, lets say, he pictured us as a bunch of starving monkeys or something of a more politically engaged nature.
Viva la revolucion!! ;)
EDIT: I read the entire post, and I agree that the "terrorista colombiano" stereotype is offencive.
Ok, granted, the argument about the inaccurate portrayal of Colombia stands. Game designers should do research before they make a game.
But looking at Zak, how accurate does it try to be? One might argue that in DOTT, even if there were one thousand karat diamonds, they couldn't be sold on the Home Shopping Network (or whatever the game had). If Tim Schafer did a little more research, maybe he might have corrected this mistake.
Or would he have?
From the very start of a game like Zak, I think we can all agree it takes place in a world similar to ours, but very different. You might even call it "cartoon". In the same way cartoon art exaggerates human proportions, a cartoon game takes liberties with fact. You might as well critisize Zak, because the player character's head is too big for his body. If only the artists had done a little research...
Perhaps in certain cases, the lack of research lends to the game's originality. Or maybe it's just me.
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 08/06/2005 01:01:21
Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.
He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.
But... where is the "bad" research in Zak? I mean... people can be kidnapped in Colombia! He is not showing something impossible.It is like showing a bomb by the torririst group ETA in Spain. It is difficult to see it happen, because they do not put bombs every day.. but It can happen. The offensive thing should have been putting a bomb in each spanish room of some game.
This game is focused in a kidnapping which happens in Colombia... ok. It is like making a game focused in the experiences of a guy in the 11-S. 11-S happened.
It should have been offensive if a character looks to those burnings buildings and says "oh, our weekly integrist terrorist strike!" Because there are not terrorist strikes in the U.S. The game maker should be telling a lie.
I think the author of Zak is not telling a lie.
Maybe I am wrong and I've missed something. My copy of Zak crashes after Paris :D But I don't think there's need to make such buzz for that.
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 08/06/2005 18:21:05
Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 08/06/2005 01:01:21
Farlander, I completely disagree that that is what he's trying to do.
He has revised his problem down to wanting people to pay attention to setting more and if it's set in a real location do a tiny bit of research, not put a warning in all AGS games.
But... where is the "bad" research in Zak? I mean... people can be kidnapped in Colombia! He is not showing something impossible.It is like showing a bomb by the torririst group ETA in Spain. It is difficult to see it happen, because they do not put bombs every day.. but It can happen. The offensive thing should have been putting a bomb in each spanish room of some game.
This game is focused in a kidnapping which happens in Colombia... ok. It is like making a game focused in the experiences of a guy in the 11-S. 11-S happened.
It should have been offensive if a character looks to those burnings buildings and says "oh, our weekly integrist terrorist strike!" Because there are not terrorist strikes in the U.S. The game maker should be telling a lie.
I think the author of Zak is not telling a lie.
Maybe I am wrong and I've missed something. My copy of Zak crashes after Paris :D But I don't think there's need to make such buzz for that.
The bad research is (for example) in the fact that Bogotá, which is in the middle of some mountains, in cold weather, is in the middle of the jungle! Or that it's a city with over 6 million citizens, and yet it's pictured like some kind of amazonian village (I've been to several of those, and some are actually more "modern" than the way it looks in the game)... I'm (right now) just talking about making it believable in its own context. It does not even work like a cartoon. Cartoons are (usually) exagerations (that's why making big heads work). To picture for example Bogotá as an incredibly big traffic jam in all streets would be an exaggeration that would work as a cartoon as we are known for great traffic jams, but to put a jungle in the middle of a city just simply makes it unbelievable even in a game's context (how believable would be a game if they picture New York now a days as a village in the middle of the jungle?)
I don't know about Bogotá, but I'm sure that Brazil is not a jungle. But it HAS a jungle. I'm similarly sure there's more to Britain than stonehenge, too - call it a hunch.
The film "Love Actually" depicted Portuguese in an unflatteringly light, we generally aren't like that... but those people do exist here, of course. And that's all that mattered for purposes of the film.
Quote from: Rui "Brisby" Pires on Wed 08/06/2005 19:15:06
I don't know about Bogotá, but I'm sure that Brazil is not a jungle. But it HAS a jungle. I'm similarly sure there's more to Britain than stonehenge, too - call it a hunch.
The film "Love Actually" depicted Portuguese in an unflatteringly light, we generally aren't like that... but those people do exist here, of course. And that's all that mattered for purposes of the film.
Nope, there's no jungle in Bogotá at all... Actually, it's VERY far from the Amazon (which would be the only jungle in Colombia)... So it is (again) like picturing New York in a jungle...
Quote from: magintz on Tue 07/06/2005 11:05:16
I doubt he can fit that many items in his jacket, even if it was a very fine leather jacket.......
All I'm trying to say is that the majority of the world bases ideas of locations on Stereotypes, ..........
the whole world is based on stereotyping and common ideas to symbolise and relate to certain locations.....
I agree. A game is a game, and although I don't like stereotypes in real life, I don't mind seeing them in games or films or books, if it helps the plot, as long as they don't officially claim it's the truth.
If we wanted to make a fuss about it, we should start from film industries and publishing houses. I barely recognise my country, my continent even, when I see it in films or read about it in books, but I do watch/read if I think they are good quality ones. It doesn't mean I accept it...It's just a convenience to help continue the story and usually people accept it as such...Warehouses, forests, blondes, remote locations, busy offices, empty houses, dark houses...it's like signposts. You don't expect to meet a ghost or a burglar every time you go to the cellar, or houses wouldn't have cellars any more...But when you need one for your story , you usually put them there...
I don't think there's someone who doesn't have a fixed idea about a nation or a country ....or even about a burglar's methods (!), if it's a police film/book/game....
So, the problem is that the forest is far away from Bogotá???
[Demagogy]***There's a lot of poverty in the world for complaining for things like that***[/demagogy]
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 08/06/2005 19:40:10
So, the problem is that the forest is far away from Bogotá???
[Demagogy]***There's a lot of poverty in the world for complaining for things like that***[/demagogy]
1. Again (I'm not really sure what part is not clear) the problem for me is inaccuracy that leads to making things unbelievable even in the game's context. I'm talking about the "should be" of game design, not about the "what is" game design. I don't know why I think that if I made a game showing Paris (for example) in the middle of a jungle it would not be very credible, even if the game is fiction and cartoonish (unless the story of the game included how Paris has suddenly turned into a jungle).
2. Your last remark completely lacks argumentative value. That remark is as valuable as saying there's also too much poverty in the world for us to have enough money to have computers and be able to happily play games while people starve to death in other parts of the world... But I won't discuss that, my point continues to be the same: what should happen is that there should be a minimun of research while on the game design face of a project to avoid big inaccuracies and inconsistencies. And as far as saying it also happens in movies (I remember watching a movie where Arnold Swazchenegger tookÃ, a boat in Bogotá, where there are no rivers, and went to Cartagena, which is at the north part of Colombia, and it was like the Amazon, which is in the south part of the country), that's not really an argument either. Movies make a lot of inaccuracies (I'm talking strictly about inaccuracies, not stereotypes), so what? The fact that it happens does not affect the "should be" of the importance of research in game design...
Isn't each game/story a work of fiction? As such, writers and designers alike take a liberties in writing their stories. They fictionalize areas of the world to make them work. Stephen King writes about New York and a certain Tower being constructed there. It is, in the real world, not there.
Jane Jensen has completely messed up the French Quarter for Gabriel Knight 1. Reality and fantasy mix in these settings, as is the case in Zak McKracken. Guy Gavriel Kay thought up a fictional Toronto for the Fionavar Tapestry, even though he lived there. This is the case in almost all stories/games. Except when they're a "Real Life" kinda thing.
Does it bug me that lots of movies etc talk about Holland being a drug-paradise? Not really, no. Does it bother me that there are a lot of coffee shops everywhere doing this? Yes. But I don't take it out on Quentin Tarantino for using a reference to Amsterdam in Pulp Fiction.
Does it bug me that often gay characters are stupid stereotyped Will & Grace characters? No. I don't see the humour in such depiction, but then again, I don't watch it. Or, if it's a part of something I do like, I ignore it.
Dutch historians might take offense at how I depict Amsterdam in the mid 17th century, to make it fit Buccaneer 2. But hey, as long as the story works and it's not an attack on a certain group of people, it's fine by me!
Just don't go making a game about the entire Islamic world being into global bombing and making a Klu-Klux-Klan member a valuable player character who saves the world by insuring White Superiority becomes a global law. Such racism and hurt should be directed elsewhere, e.g. prison.
And now I'm off to be politically correct elsewhere...
Silly people! Everybody knows that Colombia isn't a country! It's a coffee-manufacturing company!
Sheesh! The ignorance...Ã, ;D
I guess Freud would say you must have a big problem and big complexes about your own country, otherwise you could just take it with a smile.
The spelling problem is the only real bad thing :/ The rest is writers freedom like everyone said.
Quote from: Totoro on Wed 08/06/2005 21:33:17
I guess Freud would say you must have a big problem and big complexes about your own country, otherwise you could just take it with a smile.
I guess the point remains to be unclear. LONG time ago I have been writing exclusively about research for credibility, as in : I'm not complaining about the stereotypes right now...
In reply to Hobbes: I agree, but there is an extent to that freedom or (again) you may loose credibility. Do you really think that making a game set in contemporary Paris and it being set in the middle of the jungle would work without giving a proper explanation?
In reply to voh: :-)
Anyway, I propose to just let this discussion as it is, as what I definitely wouldn't want is that it ends up being rude or anything like that, which would be completely pointless. Thanx for everybody's opinion, I do feel that listening to other's opinion is valuable to either change ones mind or to further convince one self of personal opinion. ;D
It's been a quite enjoyable and a very mature discussion, thanks Rozojc. I understand your point about credibility (Finally! :D)
But I don't think it's a big deal. Using your example, very close tou New York there is a big forest, in the valley of the Hudson, and nobody could complain really if you show some of that "jungle" in the way from JFK to Manhattan.
Some airports are a bit far away from the center of the city... We can allways use a little of imagination and suppose that this "jungle" it's a middle size forest, I guess.
But we take note of the advise of researching!:D