Before I begin, I would just like to point out that I'm not posting this specifically to ridicule anything or anybody. I'm genuinely interested in peoples views on this second attempt, again by Malinche Entertainment, to start some sort of adventure-based con.
We all remember what happened last year, but I approached this years attempt with an open mind. Seriously.
You can read all about it, guests, prices and whatnot, at the official site. (http://www.adventurecon.org/index.htm)
Disregarding any reservations you may have towards AdventureCon, does this current plan appeal to you? Would you pay to attend?
Well, I was going to post a comment remembering what a *con* the previous one had been...
...but Fish's thought out post denied me the opportunity of Malice towards Malinche. Damn you, Fishy! Damn you to the seventh dodecaedron of Heck!
Hey! CJ is going! He can get us free tickets! ;)
Believe me, Rui, the temptation to tear into Malinche is unbearable. ;D
But I figured we'd give it a chance first, seeing as this years attempt is a little more...workable. And somewhat less Twilight Zone.
There does seem to be a sort of bitterness in some of the remarks in the FAQ regarding last years attempt, which may be a little unfair. And JustAdventure's Randy Sluganski seems to not be involved this year, or is keeping his involvement silent, which may or may not tell us something.
I'd genuinely like to see an event like this actually work, but
again I have doubts that this is the one.
Quote from: Privateer Puddin' on Wed 26/03/2008 23:22:43
Hey! CJ is going! He can get us free tickets! ;)
Yeah, I did a double-take myself when I saw "Chris Jones". Part of me was strangely disappointed when it wasn't
our Chris Jones.
Wait, didn't this fall flat last year?
At any rate, New Jersey is quite a bit far from where I live.
Quote from: Radiant on Thu 27/03/2008 00:04:15
Wait, didn't this fall flat last year?
Last two years, IIRC.
Sounds pretty cool. What happened to the last two attempts, then?
There's been only one attempt so far, last year. The dates were switched around a few times, and the location was moved from Las Vegas to Atlantic City. All in all it was a huge fiasco. We'll see if this year proves any different.
Well, they knocked $901 off the price this time round, so that's a good start. But personally, US events like this will probably never interest me.
I think it would be great just to meet The Coles and Al Lowe...and gamble in AC!
The hotel isn't built yet.
I admit to being a bit disappointed when this fell through last year. It's known that I have no love of Malinche or Mr. Sherman (http://www.davelgil.com/wordpress/?p=178), but it would have been nice to see something like this work. I don't think it'll work this year, if only because the date of the con is during a major American holiday weekend where most people are doing other things.
That said, the tone on the FAQ seems strangely... vitriolic. Saying outright that adventure game companies and producers are flaky and unreliable is a huge insult. So the reason for Adventurecon failing last year was due to the flakiness of the companies/developers and not of the coordinator? I'm sorry, but that's a lie. Last year, I asked about speaking at the con or being an exhibitor. The price of an exhibition table was astronomical - nearly a grand for a table, plus the cost of travel and hotel. As for being a speaker/panelist, I was still expected to pay full price to get into the con. So yes, I bailed out. If that's being unreliable, call me Flaky McFlakerson. If Mr. Sherman learned from his mistake and doesn't want to repeat it, fine. But don't blame the developers.
Quote
Because if there isn't enough response from the adventure game community, the event will be canceled.
Fair enough, except then later...
Quote
The event WILL take place on August 29th-31st at The Water Club in Atlantic City.
Hm.
I will watch the development this year with interest.
Did anything actually go ahead last year or was the event cancelled?
The experience of five people paying extortionate amounts of money to go to a near-empty convention would make a pretty good adventure game.
Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 26/03/2008 23:37:45
Yeah, I did a double-take myself when I saw "Chris Jones". Part of me was strangely disappointed when it wasn't our Chris Jones.
Quiet, you!! Don't go telling them that and ruining this free holiday for me!
I'll admit, though - the guest list is impressive.
Impressive for 10-15 years ago, perhaps. Today? Maybe not so much. With all due respect to them, getting guests who haven't been in the spotlight for over 10 years aren't so hard to snag.
I like this;
QuoteEvery time a VIP confirms they will attend, the tab to run this shindig goes up by $3,500. That's because we pick up all of the VIP's travel expenses and put them up in a top-of-the-line room at The Water Club. That's on top of wining and dining them all weekend. Please realize that the legends of the adventure game world will not ride in to town on a Greyhound and stay in a Holiday Inn with food vouchers for Denny's. We tried!
Ron Gilbert arrived at a local London pub on the tube & sat on a wooden bench for 4 hours :P And in my eyes he's WAY more VIP than those attending the "Con" ;) Anyway there's quite a lot of nonsense in the FAQ with a lot of underlying pleading too, but if they do get the numbers & go ahead with it then all the best to them.
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 27/03/2008 14:38:11
Impressive for 10-15 years ago, perhaps. Today? Maybe not so much. With all due respect to them, getting guests who haven't been in the spotlight for over 10 years aren't so hard to snag.
Maybe, but getting them all in the same room together is a pretty awesome result.
I like this quote too, M0ds.
QuoteEvery time a VIP confirms they will attend, the tab to run this shindig goes up by $3,500. That's because we pick up all of the VIP's travel expenses and put them up in a top-of-the-line room at The Water Club. That's on top of wining and dining them all weekend. Please realize that the legends of the adventure game world will not ride in to town on a Greyhound and stay in a Holiday Inn with food vouchers for Denny's. We tried!
In other words, they aren't doing it for love of the adventure genre, or out of a sense of loyalty, but rather for an all-expense-paid holiday to a top-of-the-line room in a luxury hotel? I'd hardly call this a good thing. In fact, it's a bit sad.
Gee... I'm used to reading about game and comic conventions in the US all the time and feeling envious that all we get here are anime and cosplay cons. But reading about AdventureCon, I actually feel sorry for this Howard Sherman person. He's obviously trying hard, but he's so out of touch.
I imagine an AdventureCon as maybe a place where indie game-makers can boost their own profile and get to meet the big-names. It would be an exciting time for gamers and game-makers alike to find out what's going on in the indie scene, because let's face it - much of the adventure game activity is in the indie scene. It wouldn't be glitzy or glamourous - quite the opposite, because in my mind adventure gamers are pretty realistic people, and we know we don't have the kind of following that comics do, for example. I don't think this would cost a lot to host and run. You might not get a profit out of it, but at least the adventure game community would benefit greatly.
In other words, what I imagine doesn't seem to mesh at all with what I'm reading on the AdventureCon site.
And yes, I'm highly perturbed by the FAQ. He sounds like he's running out of patience - which is understandable, but also hints that he's not really interested anymore. In which case he really ought to stop and think if what he's doing is what the adventure gaming community wants.
If I were in the US, I wouldn't go after reading that site. I'd be too afraid of disappointment. (And that's assuming I didn't even know the history of the failed attempts.)
Very true auriond. If he was able to realise the most of us are just humble people content with slightly less glitzy events than this he'd have a bigger success on his hands. I've seen a lot of conventions fail because they've gone for such classy locations. But look at us, we're finding it hard to keep it under 30 attendees at a lot of "related" events to the community, which is great. Location hunting can be hard though. I think for the most part this guy needs to consider new locations, less glitzy. Eventually he'll find one that is amicable with your average adventure fan. I'm pretty sure most of them aren't the super-rich which every year AdventureCon seems to strike me as only appealing to them. Other than that, the guest list is good, but nothing out of the ordinary for me. Speaking as a LucasArts fan I'd prefer to see a bit more balance in the VIP list especially because of the debates. Putting A in adventure, putting K up my nose, the formula to success in adventure games, the forumla for scoring women with cheap adventure game innuendos, etc. Those debates aren't justified with the people I really think made an impact, and especially not with people who CAN/ARE/WILL make an impact. I'll come back to this.
Al Lowe seems to attend any old convention, and the majority else, even those invited but unable to attend (bar Chris Jones, tex murphy) caters for the Sierra element of our hayday, but what about LucasArts? As I said one of the key debates at AdventureCon is "Discussion Panel: The Secret Formula to Success in Adventure Games". I'm sure some of that debate & the others they have would come down to where did it all go wrong? And a lot of that discussion would need to be focussed on LucasArts. All good and well not having anyone from them there, but THAT would be the moneysworth for me. I am LucasArts biassed but I feel AdCon is too Sierra biassed. It's like a bad homage, which with a bit of tweaking could be a very good one. They've got a lot of "greats" but its kind of a shameful representation, especially if he's adding glitz to it. We've got Al Lowe who did create good adventures but has undoubtedly watch his LSL franchise go to shit. Scott Adams, Chris Jones, perfectly agreeable with me. Not sure of the others. Inviting Roberta Williams to an adventure related convention of any kind seems to be default. Again there are few LucasArts representatives, ever. Adventure games went out of market because LucasArts fired all their creative talent & Sierra gave up when they realised they'd accidentally signed a 50 year contract with Roberta :p They never quite managed to harness Creative Quest. But that is a dangerous debate around here, a laughable one at that though. Well for me nowadays anyway :p That aside they'd also need to focus on the future of adventures and they're not representing that at all, no Dave Gilbert, no Ben Croshaw, no Chris Jones (AGS) and no wpowell either. No representation from those who are actually still making these games, not just peoples who did it 15 years ago. I'd find these people just as appealing as the "greats". Anyway this is just rambling, its my first point that I really think AdventureCon man should focus on, less glitz.
Both Auriond and Mods raise interesting points.
Conventions should really be about getting as many fans together as possible, to celebrate whatever subject it is they have in common; adventure games or otherwise. Things like guest speakers and VIP appearances should really just be the icing on the cake, rather than the main focus.
If someone could put a together a con where indie/amateur adventure developers/fans could experience the adventure scene as a whole (showcasing new games, retrospectives of classic game series, discussions, etc), with the added bonus of a VIP guest speaker (singular), and perhaps some input from the odd commercial studio (exclusive looks at upcoming projects and whatnot), they might have something worthwhile on their hands. Plus, it shouldn't be too hard to set aside space for auctions and collectors, offsetting some of the event costs with nominal "seller" fees.
Of course, putting such a plan into action is another thing entirely, but it shouldn't be impossible.
The most important thing to remember is that, no matter who may be appearing, if it cost to attend isn't viable to the average fan, then your event is dead in the water.
And saying the event costs x amount to stage, so, like it or lump it, you're going to have to pay y amount to attend, isn't how you entice people to come.
And expecting people to pay more, so that the event can make a profit, is just...missing the point.
I'm not really clear about what exactly is supposed to happen at this thing, and the website is very vague about it.
So there are some VIP guests. Are they giving talks or are they sitting at stalls doing Q&A? If so what are they going to talk about?
What happens for the rest of the time when there isn't a talk going on (which looks like it will be most of the time judging by the schedule)? Since he's saying there isn't going to be an exhibition hall or stands or anything like that, what are people supposed to do? Mill around aimlessly for 2 hours in between each talk?
In principal I'd like to support an event like this, but unfortunately it just sounds like it's going to be poorly managed and a waste of an expensive air fare to attend it. He doesn't even mention how much these special block-booked hotel rooms cost, but considering that it looks like quite a swanky hotel, they can't be cheap.
As m0ds said, why not start off by just getting a single VIP to do a talk in a big city location like New York or London, with some sort of dinner/drinks afterwards, and see how many people turn up? If it works, grow it from there.
I'm not sure how much research Howard has done into this, but I can't imagine 400 people buying a ticket to it.
It's interesting to compare the Howard of this year to the one of last year. Last year, despite how ridiculous the con was, he seemed really excited about it. His mailing list emails were full of buzz and hype and infectious joy. He posted on all the adventure game forums and really tried to drum up publicity for the convention. It was kind of cute, in a train wreck kind of way.
This year, there's none of that. If he couldn't make it work last year (with all the hype), I don't see it working this year (with all the bitterness).
Still, the convention is 6 months away. Most conventions don't really get their act together until 2-3 months before it begins. The website for the I-CON convention (http://www.iconsf.org/)(where I am speaking next weekend. plug plug) is chock full o' stuff, but 3 months ago it was pretty sparse. Not as sparse as adventurecon, true, but still sparse.
Like I said earlier, I've tried to approach this years event with an open mind. If Howard manages to pull it off, then more power to him. As casual observers, it's easy to point out what we believe to be apparent flaws in his plan, but who really knows?
It's just hard to post anything positive about AdventureCon, without adding "...but I doubt it will work." :-\
I don't buy the whole part about them having to entice these over-the-hill game devs like Al Lowe with a 3500 dollar package just to get them to show up. I'm betting those people would be more than eager to see some fans after all these years and get their names back in the spotlight. I think it's just an excuse for them to increase the entrance fees so they can maximize profits.
Darn, I read the FAQ, hoping that indie Adventure Game developers would be showing off their games in an E3-esque fashion. Oh well.
They need to take a page out of some of those fantastic LinuxWorld Expo sessions, where there's a ridiculous amount of booths touting various products.
Ah well. If worse comes to worse, and it flops, I guess we'll just have to wait for a real expo. If I had enough money, time, and was over the age of 21, I would sponsor such a thing. There would be a lot of beer, though.
http://www.adventurecon.org/
AdventureCon is apparently no more, seeing as the domain is dead, and Mr Sherman hasn't updated it's situation since February (http://www.malinche.net/news.html).
He'll be at Gen Con (http://www.gencon.com/2008/indy/), though...
Damn it, LimpingFish, here I came all the way back to third or fourth page to find this thread and when I finish with it I go back to the main page and it says the most recent post was...here?! Way to freak me out.
Anyway, AdventureCon, sweet as it would be, wasn't going to work out. I wanted it to, though.
I think this quote from Howard sums up just how in-touch he is with the average adventure gamer:
"Do you really want to meet Al Lowe then go pick up Burger King and crash in your room at the Holiday Inn?
Wouldn't you rather meet the masters of the adventure game world, enjoy a gourmet dinner cooked-up by a world famous chef then head off to your room for a night of pure luxury, basking in the glow of what an incredible day it was?
If the perception by too many is that the price is too high they need to go back and re-read the AGE faq. And if they still feel the price is too high they need to re-re-read the FAQ until it penetrates.
“If the hotel price kills it then so be it."
Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 15/05/2008 23:53:55
Wouldn't you rather meet the masters of the adventure game world, enjoy a gourmet dinner cooked-up by a world famous chef then head off to your room for a night of pure luxury, basking in the glow of what an incredible day it was?
Well, come to think of it, I
would enjoy that gourmet dinner and night of pure luxury. Hey, I've created more adventure games the last five years than Al Lowe, and so have half of the other people on this forum. It's very rude that he hasn't invited us!
:P
Not surprised...
Still sad, though. :(
edit: Goodness... he really IS clueless. :( It must be unthinkable to him that some of us, in fact, would NOT like to have a gourmet dinner cooked up by a world class chef and do NOT think that meeting the masters of the adventure game world is top priority at a convention...
God this man is like a train wreck. It's awful but I can't look away. Every time he does something I am fascinated, and his posts are no exception. If he had any clue what was really happening in the adventure game world he'd know that the Four Fat Chicks have always supported adventure games and are very well known in the scene. Throwing such bile and bitterness their way is like shooting himself in the foot.
Still, with such a horrible attitude i wonder why he even bothered in the first place. A publicity stunt? Perhaps. If so, it worked. Heck, we're talking about him now. Maybe I should adopt the same marketing strategy. Who's up for WadjetCon?
I'd love having a burger with Al Lowe. I reserve top gourmet dinners for, like, opera divas.
Al Lowe would probably be more at ease himself.
I just read his "Four fat bitches" (http://web.mac.com/lordrandom/iWeb/Site/Blog/FD3B00E8-FB4E-41E1-8550-FA85C516AC05.html) rant - this guy really needs to get back on whatever medication he ought to be taking.
http://adventuregamingexpo.malinche.net/
How kewl. He even put himself in the list.
Oh, it was AdventureGamingExpo in the end, was it? It's odd that he refers to it as such throughout his rant, when, afaik, it was advertised under the title AdventureCon.
What is the point of listing people who
would (might) have turned up after the event has been declared dead? It's like some bizarre form of adventure nerd name dropping. Including his own name is just tragic.
This person is very bitter about something:
"For all I know these four fat bitches may very well be four fat faggots. They sure act like faggots at any rate...." (Obviously Howard's products aren't sold to "faggots"...)
"I have a daughter to play with in the park. A wife to cook gourmet food for and fool around with. A Jaguar to drive. Golf balls to shoot. Talmud to study.
A technology company to run. In short: A life to live." ("I'm not a nerd. Honest!")
"I put some fire in the bellies of adventurers who had received a dozen emails on every topic ranging from VIP guest requests to help convincing Ken and Roberta Williams to appear to actually signing up with very little in the way of a response at any time...I told them to get off the fence and get on the bus to Adventure Gaming Expo." (These people owe you, or "the fans", nothing, Howard. Stop passing off your failures as theirs. And you are NOT the voice of the modern adventure scene. Get over it.)
"Are people shocked because I brought character back to corporate climate? Do people really prefer dispassion over personality? Am I supposed to say "Aw, shucks, folks. Sorry about that. Y'all keep on being indecisive, mealy-mouthed cheap bastards. It's all my fault you are that way." (My personal favourite.)
"If they can’t afford to participate in the single most important event to hit the adventure gaming world in a decade then fine. Don’t be bitter about it and attempt amateurish character assassinations..." (...)
"Go out and get a higher paying job, start a business, invest in the stock market, do whatever you can to make more money that would enable you to attend a monumental event like Adventure Gaming Expo. Do not blame me for what you cannot do." (This one left me speechless.)
"I will take the battle to your front door and humiliate you while the whole world watches." (typed in bold, no less!)
"I run the best damned adventure game company in the world with superior products backed by the best customer service and technical support at incredibly fair prices. You know it and I know it. I am damned proud of what we do for people every day of the week." (...what?)"
If any of these people Howard claims to have contact with have any sense, they'll keep as far away him as possible. He seems to have no qualm with viciously turning on people who don't agree with his outlook.
Although he seems happy to present himself, judging from his views/rants, as a hateful and delusional narcissist.
Quote from: DaveGilbert
Still, with such a horrible attitude i wonder why he even bothered in the first place. A publicity stunt?
Can't see that as likely. We may be talking about him, sure, but it's all negative. I doubt he'll see a sales jump. He might find gay people boycotting his games after that "faggot" jibe, though...
EDIT: I said in my first post in this thread that I was keeping an open mind about AdventureCon, and I stuck to that sentiment. That goodwill, towards AdventureCon and/or Howard Sherman, has now been used up.
Let it go. It's over. What's the purpose of going point by point through all he said, just to prove that he's an ass?
Perhaps it is different for me because I had no expectations about this event, it gave me no hopes to live up to, and it would have been very, very unlikely that I would have attended. But isn't it the same for most people here?
They held an Adventure Con in Knoxville Tennessee last year. I met General Grievous there.
I don't know guys I'm pretty embarrassed to be at one of these. All the middle-aged guys in Star Wars costumes makes me break out into laughter beyond my comfort level in public. They had light sabre twirling competitions and 25 dollar autographs. Nothing that caught my eye.
Somebody ought to mention this guy to http://somethingawful.com :D
I think he's brilliant.
QuoteAs visions of sobbing, tormented forum denizens filled my mind's eye, their will to live withered by my relentless application of flawless logic and piercing critical thinking skills, I was forced to remember the immense price of victory I’ve paid before...
... two or three hours per day of time spent slaughtering every post made by every single scumbag leading them to commit themselves to surrender, suicide or an asylum.
He reminds me of me, only more committed to the whole 'narcissistic prick' vibe...
Quote from: Babar on Fri 16/05/2008 18:54:07
Let it go. It's over. What's the purpose of going point by point through all he said, just to prove that he's an ass?
It's easy, and fun, and makes me feel better about myself. \o/
EDIT: Since the Adventure Game Expo FAQ (http://adventuregamingexpo.malinche.net/agexpofaq.htm) has vanished, it just like to bring a final point to the discussion:
"Adventure game fans take careful note of which adventure game companies do and do not participate in Adventure Gaming Expo. The next time you decide to purchase a new adventure game we ask you to vote with your wallet and support those companies who demonstrate a serious commitment to the adventure game community."Adventure game fans take careful note of which adventure game companies do and do not refer to women as "bitches", homosexuals as "faggots", and otherwise random people as "scumbags". Then vote with your wallet.
EDIT: The more I think of Adventure Game Expo, the more I think of Ron Gilbert in a pub, on a wooden bench. Expo, indeed.
This guy is remarkable. Howard Sherman's swollen sense of self-importance and his complete disdain for anyone who doesn't share in his love for Howard Sherman is just sad.
I read the Four Fat Chicks forum thread that set off his diatribe. It was hardly made up of bile and lies. There were a few jeers and jibes, a few unnecessary remarks about his personal looks and his, well... remarkably odd blog, but nothing that called for such an explosion of hatred. It certainly didn't call for sexist and homophobic slurs or personal attacks on the site's owners, who are great lovers of the genre. It was just two pages of comments mostly about how anger isn't the best way to market a convention.
When marketing, instead of coming in with his "I run the best damned adventure game company in the world" attitude and spending a significant proportion of the con's site spewing bile about all those other people who stopped the last attempt, might it be better to put yourself, the organizer, in the background along with the organization process, and put the actual event in the foreground?
Just for fun, I checked the website of Dragon Con, a comic/game/art convention that Howard mentioned on his blog about wanting to exhibit at. No where except on the "contact us" page can I find anything about the people organizing the thing. In fact, the only convention that I can think of where the organizers keep themselves in the forefront is PAX, which is understandable since that whole Con is based the guys who make Penny Arcade and their fans.
Maybe some people read just a bit and go, wow, this guy is important and trustworthy because he says so and then go ahead and book tickets to New Jersey, but I'd really suspect that
a lot of potential attendees have been so turned off by what they can quickly surmise about his character from reading anything he writes that it cripples any attempt at organizing an event with significant attendance.
How about "Hi, I'm Howard, a lover of the Adventure games and head of a small, but dedicated text-adventure company, and I want to give something back to the adventure community."? Doesn't that work? It does for me.
And since his visible anger in the organization of two conventions hasn't so far gotten either of them off the ground, I'd say that it may be ok to admit his own mistakes rather than blame the fans who didn't sign up for his convention.
So, if he were to quit sticking his head out from behind the curtain, and quit referring to himself in the self-important third-person, and stop bitching and blaming about why the thing failed the first time around, the whole thing suddenly looks a lot more legit and less dubious. Just say, "Ok, it didn't work out last time, but I've learned a few things and hope to correct my mistakes from the first go around." It sounds a lot better than "I'm doing the same damn thing again, so you bastards better not screw it up again!"
Finally, spend a little money on a web designer. A little professional appearance goes a long ways. I offer low rates!
Also, as noted by several people in this thread and many others that I've seen around the net (though possibly only in the 'bad neighborhoods'), yes, we'd be perfectly happy to meet some of our favorite adventure icons and then roll over to the nearest McDonalds for a bite before going to bed at the nearby Holiday Inn. Even if I was interested in the con, $600 dollars per night is a deal breaker for me. Not because I don't have a job and can't afford it which somehow makes me the bastard who did your second attempt in, but thank you very much for insulting me ass hole, but because the amount of money I would have to spend would far outweigh the experience that you are selling me. And again, perhaps spending more time on your website promoting the actual event and telling me about all the fun things I would be doing there rather than talking about yourself and insulting potential customers might help to remedy that.
Finally, I think Howard needs to read some of his own advice:
Quote from: Howard ShermanIf you insist on the perverted activity of attacking successful people then at least have the decency of doing so with some small degree of class or style.
The Four Fat Chicks run a successful and popular website and community. They are excellent ambassadors of the genre and should be treated with all the respect overweight poultry deserves. ;)
And just in case Howard finds this little rant, my name is Vince "Twelve" Wesselmann and I run an insignificant but dedicated game company and I love the adventure genre. So there. Now you can't call me an anonymous coward.
He does for convention runners what Derek Smart does for game designers: makes them look like total dickwads.
Also, I call Howard Sherman an anonymous coward since his name means absolutely nothing to me.
Hmm, I have a feeling that this guy isn't entirely serious. If you read this stuff carefully, you can see a lot of thought put in to it. I can't tell if it is trying to be funny, or to impress, but i have a feeling his assholery is at least somewhat intentional. (In other words, I don't think he's as oblivious as he comes across)
Although, maybe that's just me. I tend to give people credit for things they don't deserve (like Paris Hilton -- I have a feeling she's a lot smarter than she portends)
And Can Someone Please Tell Me Why IF Writers Put Capitals At The Start Of Every Word In Every Sentence? I Thought IF Showed That They Were More Along The Lines Of Novelists But It Always Ends Up Looking Like They Just Want To Englarge My Penis ::)