AGS Awards 2023 - The future of the awards (1st post updated)

[Danvzare]

I feel like this conversation has taken the kind of turn where I should keep my nose out and let the adults talk.
But I want to add my two cents anyway. 

Considering people have to purchase a commercial game in order to play it, and people generally don't vote let alone nominate a game that they've never played. I've always thought that commercial games are at a severe disadvantage compared to their freeware counterparts. The fact that they make up for this disadvantage with much more polish (aka professional graphics, music, ect), in my mind, puts everything on a somewhat level playing field.

And besides, there's different levels of commercial games.
I mean compare Captain Disaster to Unavowed. Both are great commercial games, but it's a bit unfair to only compare them just because they're commercial games. 
(What I'm trying to say is that some commercial games are made by just one guy in his spare time, not unlike most freeware games, while some commercial games are made by a team working full time.)

[CaptainD]

Agree with basically all the above. "Commercial" just means that whoever made it has decided to sell it for a price rather than give it away for free, which massively reduces the user-based (albeit with the limited number of people who nominate and vote, the effect is greatly reduced). It's also a fair point that commercial can mean a team of people with professional artists and voice cast, or... not! But that's also (maybe not to the same scale) true of freeware games. Some people are professional artists / coders / VAs making something in their spare time, so they bring those skills to their free project. (FWIW my co-dev on Stomping Boots had been a professional developer before and without his help I would probably never had been able to complete the game, nor would it have been anywhere near as good. I would like to think that over the years I've acquired these necessary skills.)

I think the only fair way to judge any games is simply against the criteria of the award, whether it be gameplay, graphics or whatever. Which is what I think we all do. I think the "Best Game" and "Best Freeware Game" could easily be combined onto just "Best Game" if people wanted them to be, but I rather like the possibility of the possibility of having two different winners. But does it unconsciously prejudice people to think that "Best Freeware Game" means it's probable that "Best Game" should be a commercial effort? I guess that's possible but I'm not entirely convinced.

[TheFrighter]

I was thinking that "commercial" and "freeware" could be temporary status, because if a commercial game after some years is no longer available on platform such as Steam then the developer could re-release for free!
Yes it's rare but could happens! 

_

[CaptainD]

I was thinking that "commercial" and "freeware" could be temporary status, because if a commercial game after some years is no longer available on platform such as Steam then the developer could re-release for free!
Yes it's rare but could happens! 

It could happen but probably irrelevant for the rewards themselves, as the game is only eligible for the year it's added to the database. I just checked and on the AGS game database page itself, you can still tick / untick the Commercial box if you do update. So in a sense, it is actually a temporary status, because it can be changed by the developer.

[LimpingFish]

Yes. Heroine's Quest is and has always been free. (I believe there are some copyright issues that would make it difficult if not impossible to charge for it.)

I've changed the database entry to reflect this, to avoid further confusion. So three it is...

In the AGS Awards? Yes!

That was clumsy on my part, and I should have been clearer. What I meant by "regardless of engine" was in relation to one commercial game over another, AGS or other. If I pay...checks steam...14.99 for Unavowed, I'm going to want my value for money, just as if I payed 14.99 for a game by another developer, whether said game uses a comparable engine or Unreal 5. It doesn't matter that Unavowed is an AGS game, I'm going to judge it in the commercial arena, against other commercial games. I guess it's a consumer point of view. Paying that 14.99 is going to influence my opinion of any game that I have to rate, something that doesn't enter the equation when dealing with freeware titles. That's what I was trying to get across when I said there is (to me) a fundamental difference between judging "commercial" and "freeware" games, AGS or otherwise.

In a contest about which AGS games have the best pixel-pushing and voice work? Yes!

Maybe I'm trying to emphasize "fairness" to an unobtainable degree. That's probably on me. But judging, say, a commercial game's graphics over a freeware game's graphics means, to me, ignoring the commercial game's need to be competitive in a different arena to the freeware game, one that requires a level of polish that the freeware game doesn't necessarily need to aspire to. It's less about punishing the commercial game, and more about not punishing the freeware game, at least, as I said, to me. But as I also said, maybe that's just not feasible.

I think the only fair way to judge any games is simply against the criteria of the award...

I honestly don't have a major problem with that, despite the need to note my own personal hang-ups. 

I think we should drop the topic.

Agreed.

[Kastchey]

Setting the question of what is fair and what is not aside, I think the biggest practical issue is that while trying to distinguish between "commercially competitive" and "hobbyist" games may be easy in some cases, it will become highly arbitrary in others.

If we want to try streamlining the process to make the client quicker to produce for the Awards team and the nominations easier to digest for the community, we probably want to steer clear of anything that requires heavy moderating or in-depth research, and is very prone to be disputed.

[Kastchey]

Ok guys! First off, I would like to thank you all for all the responses, every single one. It's really uplifting to see that the community is still interested in and attached to the Awards and the ceremony.

The changes we decided to go ahead with this year are as follows:

1. The Awards:
Best Game of the Year
Best Freeware Game
Best Short Game
Best Non-Adventure Game
Best Demo
Best Audio
Best Visuals
Best Writing
Best Programming
Best Character
Best Gameplay

As you can see, all the visuals will be merged into a single award. Same with the audio awards. Gameplay and puzzles have become a single category.
Best Short, Demo, Programming and Character all have their fervent defenders, so we have decided to leave them be, at least for now. We may revisit the topic together again next year, should need be.

2. Ceremony date:

The ceremony will take place in March. The doodle for the specific date will be set up much earlier this time, around first week of January, so you can plan in advance to attend, if you wish to. The nominations phase will happen in January, and the voting in February (give or take a couple days for the team to set the next stage up).

Shortly after the ceremony date is revealed, I will start looking for presenters and streamers. Please consider volunteering, the more the merrier and it really helps a lot!

3. Games list:

The games will now be eligible for specific categories based on their database entries. This should make the nominations easier, as the lists of values will only include the actual eligible games.

We are happy to accept volunteers to sift through this year's database and let us know if any of the games are misclassified in the following categories: Non-Adventure, Demo, Freeware, Short.
Please PM me or cat if you think you can help.

4. Nominee assets:

As we have eliminated specific categories for visuals and audio, there will be little need to ask the creators of the nominated games for assets. We will either self-source the required assets, or accept optional contributions in the form of screenshots and avatars, should you choose to supply any.

[cat]

3. Games list:

The games will now be eligible for specific categories based on their database entries. This should make the nominations easier, as the lists of values will only include the actual eligible games.

Big thanks to @AGA , who implemented this for us. I think this is a huge improvement for the nomination process. Last year, it was hard to get enough nominations in the Best Short Game category. I hope that a reduced list that only includes eligible games will result in more people nominating.

[heltenjon]

We are happy to accept volunteers to sift through this year's database and let us know if any of the games are misclassified in the following categories: Non-Adventure, Demo, Freeware, Short.
Please PM me or cat if you think you can help.

I've informed cat that I'm doing this. As I have played many of the games and have the database admin rights, this shouldn't be too much hassle.

[heltenjon]

I did some changes. Posting them here in case of objections:

* removed Demo tag on Iskra Igra
* changed Super Author Simulator 2023 to non-adventure
* changed Lost & Found to non-adventure
* changed How to: Witchcraft Cuisine to non-adventure
* changed Karelian bath steam house (Finnish) to non-adventure (will change it back to joke game after the nomination process)
* changed Super Star Trek (1978) meets 25th Anniversary to non-adventure

Jury is still out on

* The Weird thing under the bed Is it an adventure game? (Probably not important in this case. Sorry, Mandle.)
* Katura's Chronicles These games of Marion's are visual novels. In my head that is a subcategory of adventure games, so I haven't changed anything.
* Menial; a Utopian Bagel Simulator This is a hybrid of several game genres. So: non-adventure or not?

There may still be things that are incorrect, especially regarding game length. Any input may be useful, like the bride said to her shy groom.

[Kastchey]

Thanks so much, heltenjon. This really helps.

Using similar guidelines hightreason uses for his $10X Adventure Game Challenge (I think they're spot on):

* The Weird thing under the bed Is it an adventure game?

I'd say so. It's a form of unusually structured visual novel.

* Katura's Chronicles These games of Marion's are visual novels. In my head that is a subcategory of adventure games, so I haven't changed anything.

Yeah, I'd agree.

* Menial; a Utopian Bagel Simulator This is a hybrid of several game genres. So: non-adventure or not?

To me it felt primarily like a visual novel with some extra elements, so I would say adventure game.

Just my opinion though.

[cat]

When in doubt, just go with what the author decided it should be.

[LimpingFish]

3. Games list:

The games will now be eligible for specific categories based on their database entries. This should make the nominations easier, as the lists of values will only include the actual eligible games.

Oh, cool, that's a great addition to the process.

There may still be things that are incorrect, especially regarding game length. Any input may be useful, like the bride said to her shy groom.

It's not an exact science, so I'd say go with your gut. As for kinda-non-adventure games, if the narrative or adventure-type elements are second to the arcade or simulation elements, I'd lean towards classifying it as a non-adventure, myself. If they share equal importance, I'd probably go...adventure?

Regardless, if you need a hand with specific games, let me know.

EDIT:

Dread McFarlane is actually an old game re-uploaded to the database, and not the visual novel/comic version, so I guess it should be removed from the possible nominees list?

Hey Der, Undy!, to quote the developer: "There are two versions available. V1.3 has no voicing, but has more textured graphics, a better user interface and a "jokeatron". V1.2 has the old AI voicing and older, simpler graphics." Will this be a problem?

Also, I noticed a handful of games use free or paid asset packs for the majority (if not all) of their graphics. Should we address this in regards to the visual award?

[heltenjon]

There may still be things that are incorrect, especially regarding game length. Any input may be useful, like the bride said to her shy groom.

It's not an exact science, so I'd say go with your gut. As for kinda-non-adventure games, if the narrative or adventure-type elements are second to the arcade or simulation elements, I'd lean towards classifying it as a non-adventure, myself. If they share equal importance, I'd probably go...adventure?

Regardless, if you need a hand with specific games, let me know.

Thanks, LimpingFish, I may do that. Like Kastchey guessed, I'm going with the same broad definition of what constitutes an adventure game as the $100+ game jams on itch.

Dread McFarlane is actually an old game re-uploaded to the database, and not the visual novel/comic version, so I guess it should be removed from the possible nominees list?

That is correct. These games have already had a shot at ags awards, because they have been in the database before. Even though I'm happy they are back, they aren't eligible this year.

Some other old jam games that are added for the first time now, is eligible under our rules, though. Like America 2000. I don't think this will be a problem for anyone.

Hey Der, Undy!, to quote the developer: "There are two versions available. V1.3 has no voicing, but has more textured graphics, a better user interface and a "jokeatron". V1.2 has the old AI voicing and older, simpler graphics." Will this be a problem?

This will not be a problem. People may nominate from either of these versions if they want to, but I don't think it's necessary to do anything about it.

Also, I noticed a handful of games use free or paid asset packs for the majority (if not all) of their graphics. Should we address this in regards to the visual award?

Isn't the criteria something about original art? I must admit I would think that Marion's Star Trek Comics, for example, would not be a natural choice because of this, even though they look like a million Euros.

[Cassiebsg]

If you have to address if the art if "original to the game" or "free/paid pack" in regards to the awards, then we also have to address the audio. And we have to know which games aren't using non-original stuff.

I thing we should just let the people decide. If the pack fits the game and it's so good that the people decide it deserves and awards, isn't that just credit to the original artist that created the art and the game designer that implemented it perfectly?

[Matti]

I haven't followed the whole discussion, but i wanted to reply to one of the original questions.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Are you going to participate in voting or join a ceremony next year?

Most likely I won't vote.

I know that I can vote without having played all the games in question, but it was only once (2-3 years ago) that I felt I have played and seen enough to make a meaningful vote in all categories.

Usually I don't play enough of the games to give a vote, and most likely it will be the same next year. On the other hand I haven't lost interest in the awards and find them entertaining, an it's also nice to recap and see all the great AGS games that came out the previous year. If I find the time to play a good chunk of the games (and take a look at other game's comments, screenshots, trailers..) then i will vote again.

That said, it would definitely help if there were a bit fewer categories to vote for.

[cat]

That said, it would definitely help if there were a bit fewer categories to vote for.

Good news, this is going to happen:
https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/adventure-related-talk-chat/ags-awards-2023-the-future-of-the-awards/msg636659380/#msg636659380

I've updated the first post with this information.

[Snarky]

Here's a question I asked during the last nomination period:

Commercial games have the option of offering a demo link. So are commercial games eligible for nomination in the demo category, if they have a demo that was released in the past year, even if the demo doesn't have a separate db entry?

[Kastchey]

Do you mean a scenario where they have released the full version of their commercial game in 2023, but still offer a demo that was also released in 2023?

If so, I think they should only be eligible for Best Demo if the full product is still unreleased. I.e. the category description should be "Best demo of an upcoming (as of year's end) AGS game".

Just my opinion, feel free to challenge

[CaptainD]

I think Snarky means if the demo is available, but the AGS page is for the main game, rather than a specific entry for the demo as I've done with CD3: https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/2666-captain-disaster-and-the-two-worlds-of-riskara-demo/

So if I only had the one page for the full game, but the demo is available from within that page, would it be eligible for the Best Demo award?