This has to do with AGS, or at least with AGS games, so I thought it should come to this forum.
Check this out:
http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/adventure/games_p_r/razors_in_the_night.html
See "Other games downloaded" to find more AGS games.
Now try and download them!
I understand that they might need to have people pay for their services (though I don't like it), but to do it with freeware games? Is this allowed?
They'd probably get more money if they asked for donations. I mean, if I were forced to pick between two sites, one of which was charging me for free games and another which asked quietly for any monetary gifts as I was on the way out.... I know which site I'd use.
I don't know if they're allowed to do that, I hope they aren't. Maybe we should..do..something? If it were my game, I'd certainly send them a fake cease and desist from my made-up lawyer ;)
Considering that the same site also has abandonware (including Sierra games that are now being sold in compilations), a few emails to the right people could probably get the site closed down. That said, I find it unlikely that anybody is actually paying them instead of looking elsewhere for the same games.
Not as long as Home of the Underdogs exists.
Let's just see how much AGS games are sold there. If it's more than 10, we could ask them to remove the games, and if they don't react...
hehehe!
/EDIT: The results of searching for ags:
16 matching documents
:o
I'm not expert, bu I don't think they're breaking the law. They're charging for the service not for the games. I believe that if I make a CD with a freeware game on it, I could charge you for the CD, but not for the game. This seems to be the same thing.
I suppose a game's author ought to be able to tell them to stop, but I'm not sure it's necessary to get made-up lawyers involved. It seems to me the best thing to do is to maintain a collection of amateur games available for free. Which CJ does, and we reap the benefits... like a rabble of disorderly benefit-reapers.
Quote from: Ali on Tue 02/01/2007 15:17:09
I'm not sure it's necessary to get made-up lawyers involved.
Well no, but it'd be hilarious to see the look on their faces. Plus, it'd get things done faster.
Think adventure, man. Just talking to them isn't going to help ::)
I've looked over the website but there's something I don't quite understand, who would buy a download from that website when they could download it from the AGS games database for free?
I could host those games for free on the americangirlscouts server and no-one would have to pay. It isn't necessarily illegal, but I say this everytime I see someone who isn't the developer selling AGS games - flippin' cheeky!
QuoteI could charge you for the CD, but not for the game. This seems to be the same thing.
Are they selling these on CD? That's the part I couldn't find on the website...it looked to me like a pay for download...
Trouble is, there are people out there who may not know that these are AGS games, and that they can be d'loaded here for free. I'd call that false/midleading information then, even if they're just charging for the service- they make it sound as if the game's not available for free.
Seeing as the URL of the site says free-game-downloads (ironic, yes), and several places specify that the games are - to their knowledge - free, it's not a big step for the user to do a quick google search.
I'd like to see the stats on how much money (if any) they are actually making off of this.
It would make FAR more sense to me if they did that same site with the downloads for free and put Google ads on there or something similar. I will always click an ad or 2 from a website that gives me something I was looking for. To support them.
I believe the site is infamous for leeching off of HoTU, ie pointing downloads towards HoTU servers, and charging on top of that. HoTU have added measures to prevent this and continually warn about the site, it seems that even once you've paid a successful download isn't guaranteed. Considering the size of HoTU it appears that shutting down FGD isn't a simple task or they would've done it long ago.
I just wish they'd mention that the games are actually freeware, and readily available for download from other places.
I got a heads up that "Da New Guys" was on there a while back. I didn't check to see if any other AGS games were there, but a quick e-mail to them was enough for them to take it down.
They told me that they only charge to keep the site up. True or not? No idea.
That site is well-known in the abandonware scene as being a bunch of assholes. The argument that you're paying for the download service rather than the games itself is what they've been saying for years. We've emailed them numerous times based on the fact that we don't believe you should charge for games you don't own the copyright to (and certainly not for freeware games!), but they ignore us.
Since there's still people dumb enough to use their service, I don't think they're going to go away anytime soon. Which is a bloody shame :-\
I really hate the way they use free games to earn money, but as it seems they get paid for the service and not the games, I doubt there is anything we can do...
We could get someone to hack the site...? ???
Quote from: the vict0r on Wed 03/01/2007 12:34:33
We could get someone to hack the site...?
Yeah, good idea. That would be so much more legal than what they're doing.
We don't need to hack it...
...a simple DoS attack would be enough already (http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif)
DoS?
Denial of Service, not the DOS we all know and love. :)
Basically Akatosh is suggesting that we all flood the site with hits and bring down their server that way. A server admin's nightmare.
How abooouut.... no. If the developers feel they are being violated, let them get in touch. If they have no luck maybe then we should take steps to stop this, but even then - you're part of the wrong community if hacking is your answer.
Well, I did understand that hacking something is bad and wrong etc. before I posted my post.. But I understood it like people had tried to get their games off of the site, but without luck. And if this was the issue, and they really wanted the game off, someone could hack it for them
Quoteyou're part of the wrong community if hacking is your answer.
I really don't see why you conclude with this... :)
Just out of curiosity - what exactly can we do here? The site's not claiming to sell the games, but to charge for their "service" - by which we are supposed to understand that they're charging visitors in order to pay for their hosting and bandwidth. So what do we have to stand on when we want to "take steps"?
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Tue 02/01/2007 15:05:59
If it were my game, I'd certainly send them a fake cease and desist from my made-up lawyerÃ, ;)
I thought I was your lawyer, Flibble... ;D
*gears up for some spicy hot legal action*
Does anybody know of a way to find out where a game is being downloaded from? I'm not going to pay to find out ...
I'm curious to know if they're linking to my server (stealing my bandwidth) should anybody actually download my game from their site. I mean ... if they're charging the money for the "service" and then using MY bandwidth for the download I'm not too happy about that.
edit - either way ... I changed the file name on my server and edited the game's entry on the AGS games page just in case. If any of you are worried about this ... I'd suggest doing the same thing!
edit2 - Thanks Ishmael! I'm checking that right now!
If they'd be downlaoding off your site and you have a decent host who provides a control panel of sorts (be decent hosts I mean real hosting companies that provide said service) you can see what's been downloaded and how much, and I think you can somehow get a referrer info thing off it. I'm not sure on that, but should be possible.
There is a simple way to find out: Remove/Rename the file and get somebody who was dumb enough to buy access on that server to try and download it. 404 Error = They steal your bandwith.
Or, if you *own* your hosting server, you could go checking the logs and see if that site's IP accesses you.
Oh, and I didn't seriously want you to hack the server... but as I'm currently working on a hacking game, that was the first thing which came to my mind ;D
/EDIT: I've looked up the site's IP. It's 69.61.55.26.
Or better, replace the file with a fake one containing a text file, stating that whoever paid to download this file is being ripped off, and ask them to contact you and tell you where they found the link if not on your own site.
I posted about this site maybe a year or so ago. It still gives me a bad vibe though...
Somebody should try the text file thing. If you see your game appearing there, replace the original download file with the text file and upload your game under another name. Insert, uh, something like an e-mail address freshly registered for that purpose in the file and see if any mails come rushing in.
/EDIT: Oh, and by the way, look at the 'parent site' www.mosw.com. Those two are associated, and I think if we just threatened to come with lawyers... with services like that...
QuoteI really don't see why you conclude with this...
Meaning that hacking is not the solution, and this is not the kind of forum to suggest it in, either.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Wed 03/01/2007 16:46:15
Or better, replace the file with a fake one containing a text file, stating that whoever paid to download this file is being ripped off, and ask them to contact you and tell you where they found the link if not on your own site.
Fantastic idea! I'm doing that right now!
I checked the logs ... the problem is that particular file has been downloaded over 10,000 times and I don't really want to sort through it all! However ... I will know when I upload the new file and see if it gets any new downloads from this point on.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 03/01/2007 17:17:12I checked the logs ... the problem is that particular file has been downloaded over 10,000 times and I don't really want to sort through it all!
Can't you just paste it into a text file and do a search for that specific IP address?
In any case, I suspect changing the url to your file is only a temporary fix. If this site figured out how to link to it in the first place, who's to say they won't just update their link after you change it? Unless you're prepared to constantly change the URL to your file, but then that would break a lot of legitimate links to your file.
...or you just change the file once and block the IP of that site out. Unless they're really eager to get your game, that should stop them (assuming they're a bit lazy, that is).
Hopefully the advantages to creating a text file, versus just moving it, is that those downloading would be informed that this game shouldn't be downloaded from that website. Otherwise, they're more likely to point it out to the webmasters of the other site.
I really don't have a problem if they're actually hosting the file themselves. But apparently this isn't the case. They're also assuming that because a game author has made his game freeware, that it means that they can distribute it. I think there is a way to make it known that you should be the only one who may disctribute said game. Just because something is freeware, doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, which is apparently their view.
I don't agree with charging for services. Their website is pretty bare, and they probably didn't spend any money designing it, or at least didn't hire anyone outside. I am not completely in the know of how much cost it is to run a website...but after initial fees, I don't think something as bland as this, is costing them very much, and it's very possible that they are making money off of the website.
I'm not sure of the legalities of using the money for any other purpose than the website. If I were really out to see them shut down, I'd try to notify Vivendi (who owns all the Sierra copyrights, I believe), and point them in that direction, as there appears to be a few Sierra games there. Although, I think the most they would do, is make sure their games weren't being downloaded.
Edit - it also appears that they have Kings Quest there for download. As Vivendi has released Sierra Collections for sale again, this is completely against copyright laws.
-MillsJROSS
Quote from: DC on Wed 03/01/2007 14:27:16
I thought I was your lawyer, Flibble... ;D
*gears up for some spicy hot legal action*
The man raises a good point. If we DO want to do anything, DC is actually a lawyer.
Just found Vivendi's e-mail address for piracy...I know I'll send an e-mail.
piracy@vugames.com
Quote from: MillsJROSS on Wed 03/01/2007 18:05:29Hopefully the advantages to creating a text file, versus just moving it, is that those downloading would be informed that this game shouldn't be downloaded from that website. Otherwise, they're more likely to point it out to the webmasters of the other site.
Except that if the site checks their links, this is still just a temporary solution until the site updates their links. It seems to me the best way to defeat something like this is what Underdogs does, where you have to type in the code from an image to begin the download. I guess blocking the IP address like Akatosh said will also work (in this specific case).
QuoteThey're also assuming that because a game author has made his game freeware, that it means that they can distribute it. I think there is a way to make it known that you should be the only one who may disctribute said game. Just because something is freeware, doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, which is apparently their view.
There's nothing stopping anyone from including a license with their product controlling how it's distributed. Look at Open Source and the GPL. I've seen a number of free licenses that allow for redistribution as long as it's distributed free of charge and in it's entirety. Of course that doesn't mean people won't violate your license, but it may give you legal standing to start litigation against them. But if it's a free game we're talking about, most people aren't willing to spend money on lawyers.
But this site would probably still get around a license like this. They're supposedly not charging for the game, but for the bandwidth and file hosting. Now if they're not actually hosting these files and using their own bandwidth, then we're talking more along the lines of fraud than copyright violation.
Anyway, it doesn't look like people are so much upset that they're distributing these games, but that they're charging for a service which they may not actually be providing.
QuoteI don't agree with charging for services.
If they are actually providing these services, I don't see why they can't charge whatever they want to provide them. Anyone that takes the time to shop around a bit will realize that they can get these games elsewhere for free. Heck, this is true even if this is a fraudulent site.
Personally, I'm less concerned about the poor dupe that would pay for the download than I am about whether these guys are using other people's bandwidth and file hosting to perpetrate a fraud.
Discussion on HoTU forums about stopping FGD leeching http://www.the-underdogs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46858&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Very short snippet about FGD spamming Wikipedia
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spam_blacklist#free-game-downloads.mosw.com_and_accomplices
I couldn't actually find much else. I hate the fact that these people are raking money in partly from amateur developer's freeware titles. Some people release things as freeware because they don't want to charge money, but in fact they're inadvertently taking money from the public and dropping it straight into fraudulent pockets.
Text files: I'm not saying text files are a permanent solution, I'm saying that they're better than just an empty link. If I can't download a game, I will complain, and they'll probably find the changed link. But if I find a read-me that perhaps tells whoever downloads the file is being taken, I'll be less prone to actually complaining about the file. I'm not arguing this is a perfect solution, if they want to leech off you, they'll do it.
Freeware liscence: Perhaps, I should be more clear. I know it's possible to liscence your games so that you are the sole distributor of the game, regardless of the fact that it's freeware. I think they can get around charging, because they're not charging for your game, but the service they provide. So if an author liscences his game so that he/she is the only distributor, than regardless of the service fee, they are definitely in direct conflict with your freeware liscence. As far as lawyers are concerned, unless they don't pull your game after you notify them, then you can get lawyers involved. Although, using lawyers seems daunting, I, personally, wouldn't be afraid to get a lawyer if I was in that situation.
As far as not agreeing for service costs, let me say, it's a joint statement. I don't agree with service costs if they are actually leeching. I don't agree with service costs, if they're making money and using it, for other things than providing the webspace. If the money is purely going to the website, I have no problems with it.
-MillsJROSS
Re King's Quest in that site - oh, there's all SORTS of abandonware and old warez on that site. It's just waiting for a lawyer to come in, I'm sure.
Kings Quest is no longer Abandonware, they're selling it again, along with a few other Sierra collections.
-MillsJROSS
Which is why I also said "old warez".
The owner of the site is a 23 years-old kid from the Czech Republic, not any sinister "they".Ã, That doesn't make his actions any better, but it allows for an alternative to a Denial of Service: breaking his legs.Ã, He's been known for years to load his download tool with a trojan that hijacks the computer's HOSTS file to redirect the computer to his advertising servers.Ã, According to some, the tool also infects the computer with pop-up ads.
Okay. Get the russian mafia in place.
This also annoys me, they're selling Little Big Adventure 2!
http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/adventure/games_k_l/little_big_adventure_2_a_k_a_twinsen_s_odyssey_.html
Heavens, this really makes me think... But what if someone put an info panel in his AGS game STATING that it is freeware, and that whoever paid for it was being ripped? Could be done with a simple message display, and it couldn't be removed by anyone... If such a game was found on that guy's site, would that justify (and enable) legal action?
In my opinion, that's exactly what SHOULD be done, and people making new games should be encouraged to add that into all their free games - just to prevent this kind of thing from happening. =/
Teen Agent, Two of a King, Pleurghburg, Perils of Poom and many many more, all for a payment download. This is ridiculous. Time to email them when I get home I think...
I've seen that site before, and it's not special or uncommon. I've seen many websites that sell warez and free games to morons. I blame the people who actually would buy something from a site they haven't researched as much as I do the crooks who are selling it.
You're right, of course, ProgZMax. What I really disliked was that when I tryed Googling for a game I was looking for (ok, so actually I "Altavista'ed" - same principle), the first hit I got was that page. When searching, the first couple of hits always seem to be the best, don't they? On average. Most people probably go with the first couple of hits.
...no, I tell a lie, what I REALLY disliked was seeing a place where you had to pay for free games. But what I said above comes close second!
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Mon 08/01/2007 23:01:21
When searching, the first couple of hits always seem to be the best, don't they?
Nope, the order depends on how much the website owner pays the website ;)
Never trust the first few hits.
Tell that to the whole wide world. :D
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 08/01/2007 15:57:10I blame the people who actually would buy something from a site they haven't researched as much as I do the crooks who are selling it.
I think the issue here, at least with this particular website, is that they're using legitimate sites' bandwidth to perpetrate fraud.
I'm with you: it doesn't really bother me that people are spending money for games that they could get for free if they took the few extra minutes to shop around. It would bother me if someone was making money off of bandwidth that I'm paying for.
Quote from: MillsJROSS on Wed 03/01/2007 21:14:15
Freeware liscence: ... I think they can get around charging, because they're not charging for your game, but the service they provide. So if an author liscences his game so that he/she is the only distributor, than regardless of the service fee, they are definitely in direct conflict with your freeware liscence.
Thinking about it further, I'm sure there's a way you could word your license to include the type of activities this site is doing. I guess my thinking is, if you assume that honest people will follow your license and dishonest people will ignore it no matter what it says, you might as well write as unrestrictive a license as possible. I don't really see any reason to restrict legitimate sites like download.com or HotU from distributing your game when someone like this guy will sell it on his site regardless of what your license says.
Hello.
Some posts in the Dave Gilbert Congrats thread got me thinking, but I figured this was a more appropriate place to respond since it all went a bit off topic in that thread :p...
What I was wondering is how much money an AGS (or indeed any Indie game) would need to make in order for it to be worth selling?
What I mean is... say 1% of people who download your demo actually buy your game. That means that 99% of people who would otherwise have played your game are never going to experience it. How much is that worth?
So say 1000 people download your demo. that means 10 people buy it and play it and 990 people don't buy it (for whatever reason) and don't play it. If you sell the game for say $10, then is it worth $100 for 990 people to not play your game? Considering all the time that's gone into what is presumably a labour of love, does $100 really justify 990 not playing your game? Would it not be more rewarding for 1000 people to play your game?
I dunno, I'm just curious what people's opinions are on this.
With our game it is much more important to us that people play it than us make any money. If making money means that you can guarentee that most of the people who find your game aren't ever going to buy it, then I'd rather it were free and guarentee that most people who find the game are going to play it.
Perhaps my feelings would be different if I'd already made a bunch of free AGS games... I dunno.
What do you guys think?
Cap'n Binky
4 things:
1 - I think you're right;
2 - I think it's a fresh perspective on the whole issue, which has had much consideration before;
3 - I think there must be *some* reward for games who go that extra mile and provide us with quality voice acting, quality storyline, quality everything. If some people want the reward as money and some people want the reward as players... they aren't as mutually exclusive as you make them sound, though you make a very valid point.
4 - I think this issue is actually worth a thread for itself!
Let's go off topic a little. A moderator will move my post as well if needed...
Binky, for me going commercial means 1 thing, that you can get people to devote better (eg. pay them). It's rather simple. I'm not sure if Dave, or anyone else did it for profit, but for example I do know that Geoffkhan has paid quite a lot to make the soundtrack and sfx for The apprentice III. One of the main reasons for SJM to go commercial, was to find the money for the apprentice III. Same way probably with other games.
(Un)Forthunately some things in life cost, and 95% of the times, free cannot substitute commercial (in software, in sounds, in graphics, in whatever), although very god attempts have been made. You can get free sfx, but, frankly most of them are in bad quality, and it takes real guts to make them work. But you can also get sfx from Hollywood sites (like I've done some times), which does cost (around 8$ per sound!) Where can I get the money to do that?
Of course this whole thing will advance the creators studio, need, experience and everything else but it's just an extra thought, that the profit will return to a new game. I really don't think that Hercualean efforts and Dave, are trying to even pay the bills through AGS games.
Other than that you are perfectly right. :) But let me ask another kinda dangerous question:
When is a good time for a commercial game to go freeware, or abandonware (by the author of course)? Too soon, would betray all of those who bought the game, too late would make the game obsolete... ???
I think the "best time" for making a game freeware is when the 4,99â,¬ budget version releases, it lands in the "Pyramid" or a "Green Pepper" version is released.
Or about two weeks before the sequel is released, especially if your game ends with a cliffhanger (http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif).
To the 99%-don't-play-thing: Sure you'll loose a
lot of potential players via choosing to selling your game instead of releasing it as freeware. But you don't have to go the EA Games (tell them I say hello) way and charge 59.99â,¬ (>60$) for a bug-plagued Battlefield sequel when even Battlefield 2 doesn't work properly (and is still sold for about 49.99â,¬ (>50$)) - that is the best imaginable way of loosing 99% of your potential players.
And then there is the Trackmania producer's (forgot the name) and Introversion Software's way: Releasing
great games for a hell cheap price, patching them thrice a month, no matter how minor the issue may be and (in case of Trackmania) even constantly upgrading old games and releasing mostly-usable Trackmania sequels as
freeware. I guess way more than, let's say, 50% of those who played any demo/ freeware equivalent to these games will buy a full version. For example, I did that with both Uplink and Defcon (alas, not with Darwinia, bringing my record to 66%), and my grandpa did with Trackmania and Trackmania Sunrise.
Quote from: RuiTell that to the whole wide world.
If I started with these things, I'd have to tell them about stuff like Echelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON), The fact Microsoft continued with Palladium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base), The fact magic actually works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic) and everything else too.
(while we're at it, did you notice you can get to a Nazi-Related Wikipedia article from any other Wikipedia article via just clicking on the links? With less than five clicks?)
Click on the links... fast. I fear the CIA will be here to pick me up soon, and my AK has only 28 shots left ;)
/EDIT: Or just on my sig's link.
Hmmm...
Re going commerical - yes I realise that quality costs money but here is where you hit the problem. Say I make a game and it takes me about a year and I decide to sell it to raise capital to produce my awesome game that I have in my head that requires me to hire professional artists, musicians, coders, etc... well my first game is going to have to be pretty damn good to raise that kind of capital which means I probably don't need to hire those staff members after all, since I would have proved I can already do it myself. If the game's not so hot, then it isn't going to generate nearly enough income to fund my masterpiece.
So to me, going commercial means stumping up a load of cash yourself, taking a risk, hiring staff, producing a masterpiece, and hopefully making a tonne of money as a result.
So basically, back to what I was saying before... Seperating comercial ventures from the sort of scenario where I decide to make a game myself and sell it... How much do I need to make for it to be worth the drop in the number of people who end up playing it? Enough to fund that masterpiece? Well we're talking $10,000s here. Freelance artists alone can earn $100s a day (obviously there are cheaper people about, but we're talking about a masterpiece here, right?).
Oh... and re: abandonware. Well technically, it becomes abandonware when there's no real market for it anymore which means by definition it's probably obselete. Cinemaware, for example, made loads of their old games downloadable from their web sites (DOTC with a swanky new web version) to garner interest for their PS2 and XBox remake titles. So although they were obselete they served a valid marketing purpose.
Binky
Going commercial, the sequel ;D
The thing is that in the case of SJM, there are 2 members in the team, who are brothers, and do everything. Funding SJM, will make a better quality apprentice, without having to pay external artists, or coders... :)
The thing about commercialism, is that it requires an initial budget. I asume that Dave, gave in some money to make the Shivah deluxe (or maybe just percentage??? dunno...), but he hopefully has goten back that budget, plus something else, which he put into Blackwell. This practice does not produce profit really, but it can work after some games...
For me the above is the only reason to go commercial in AGS. Unless if you really can put down 10,000$+ (rather above...) and get pro artists to work (devotion issues, more than quality ones... maybe experience as well, don't get me wrong), and go for real marketing venues, which also can cost... But the AGS market alone is rather small (the adventure market, rather the "old fashioned" market, withouth saying that there cannot be any exceptions, furthermore that I dont' enjoy or believe that AGS games can be sold, heck I've bought most of them), so the profit will never be big enough.
In the end of the day it depends on what you want. In my case, personally, I'd love to make a game, but can't find people to work with. The only way I can think of is to actually "lure" people by paying them. :) But I would be a "sucker" not to try and take at least that budget money back... Either way all I want (honestly) is to make that darn game. But being in audio, does not help. Being an artist could produce screens and move on, being a programer could produce the script and everything else, but being a composer does nto really help :-/ And this is turning fast into a tiny personl rant, which has no place here...
Still, Binky, you are right. The price of commercialism IS small audience... Free is the best marekting device really.
Quote from: CaptainBinky on Fri 12/01/2007 16:25:02Seperating comercial ventures from the sort of scenario where I decide to make a game myself and sell it...
Actually you lost me here. I think it's pretty clear that Dave Gilbert, the El Ammo guys, and others(?) are trying to go commercial with - that is, make a living off of - their AGS games. Isn't this what you wanted to discuss? I don't think I'm aware of any cases of someone making a game and then just arbitrarily deciding to charge people for it.
QuoteHow much do I need to make for it to be worth the drop in the number of people who end up playing it?
Well, in the commercial case, it's all about meeting your expenses. In that case you don't really care how many people play it, just how much money you're pulling in (although certainly those two numbers are related). It does seems like there's been some disagreement in the forums about how much - or even if - people should be charging for AGS games.
In the second case, it's a totally personal decision. But frankly, I'd say if you're just charging for your game in the hopes that a few people will give you some money, then you're basically indicating that you don't really care whether people play it or not. But like I said, I'm not aware of any examples of this - but please enlighten me if I'm wrong!
Of course, the marketing strategies for these two cases will be quite different, making direct comparison of numbers difficult.
I'm not talking with any particular games in mind... these are just hypothetical ramblings :)
If we're talking commercial in the sense that it's going to be my primary source of income... well we're talking $20K+ profit here - is this even viable with retro point and clicks?
I was kind of assuming that the sorts of returns we're talking about are well below that kind of figure.
I can see the point in selling a game to raise a couple of $100s to buy a piece of software or sample set that you know you're going to need for your next game... but it also seems a shame to lose the audience for that game (which might be fantastic) just to generate that revenue. Like the game is being "used" or something :)
I find that www.download-full-games.com is a nice service, it has a wide selection of dos games, plus hundreds from other legendary platforms. It also provides emulators for most of them. It has many ways you can "pay" for the service. Most are the usual annoying "take a test" "do a survey" but the best "time for games" method is to write a review of a game on the website. I wrote one for kings quest three and they liked it so much the gave me some extra download privileges.
Binky, I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing. It sounds like you're suggesting that it's somehow more noble to thinking that a high download count is more important than the chance at some small profit, but a high download count isn't the only worthwhile pursuit for a developer.
You have to remember that some people are making games for different reasons than the adoration of the masses. I can't speak for Dave, Herculean, Himalaya, or GhostLady, but I'd imagine that the reason behind some of these commercial games is a love for game making. If a developer loves making games, then it's understandable that they'd want to continue doing it, and spend as much time as they can on it. Unfortunately, the real world has certain expectations of a person such as money. A guy can't survive purely on the enjoyment of his hobby.
If selling his games allows him to bypass the need for a job, or at least supplements his income enough that he can get by with a part time job, he'd probably think that sacrificing the number of players who played the game was completely worth it. As an added bonus for everyone else, that game maker can now afford to spend more time on each game which generally raises the quality of the games. Everyone wins.
As for the amount of money the developer is going to make, please remember that the income doesn't just come from one game. Internet shelf space is unlimited, so when this developer is selling his fifth game, the first one is still bringing in money as well. And every new game allows a few new people to discover your talent and drives them to your previous games.
As long as the game is of a quality that makes it stand out from the abundance of freeware games out there, there is a chance to make a little money. Should we begrudge the developer who chooses that over a high download count?
I enjoy making games, but I enjoy money also. If I can make money by providing games people enjoy playing I will do so. Yes, I am a capitalist.
I hoped the ads on my page would at least pay the half of my server costs. Well, they don't, yet I get about 500 MB to 1 GB traffic a day. That probably makes me a sucky capitalist.
Hullo. I think what Binky is trying to say, is that we all know that it's going to be quite hard funding the setting up of a bonafide fulltime game development studio by selling indie adventure titles, or rather, you're unlikely to be selling 30,000 copies of a retro point-and-click no matter how good it is.
If you wanted to make games full time, then you would most likely be looking at making quick turnover match-3 puzzle games etc that can be made, then sold to portals all over the internet, within a few months. Sad fact is that's where the real money is at, as vacuous and uninspiring games they are, not in making some retro point-and-click adventure which only appeals to a relatively small percentage of gamers nowadays.
This is why making a point-and-click is by and large a labour of love purely because the motivation behind it can only be more because you WANT to make a point-and-click, because we all love adventure games, not because it's a sound commercial venture to earn lots of money, because the market is too small. So if selling a game was a way of funding development of another game, something more mass marketable and less time consuming like a match-3 game or something would likely be more effective.
That all said neither of us have any problem with people selling their games at all, you have the right to be rewarded financially for your time and efforts, it's just the question of whether the amount that you would make would justify the number of people who didn't play it, being that the game itself is something you clearly care about and would want people to play as much as possible (unlike a match-3 game you knocked together in a couple of months, where you probably didn't care that much how many people missed out)
lemmy
Who said anything about 30,000 copies?
If they were making crappy puzzle games that could be more easily sold in the casual old-lady market, it would defeat the point of what I was talking about in my post. These developers are making games that they enjoy making. I'm not sure why they couldn't make some decent supplementary income off of them. I'm not sure where you pulled the number 30,000 out of, but it's completely unnecessary. Maybe it is if you're selling a small casual game that's being licensed to various sites around the net and being sold as part of subscription services where you're earning back pennies for each sale, but take for example the Blackwell Legacy: $15 * 30,000 copies sold = $450,000. Hell, if he could make that much he'd probably be making his next game from the comfort of his tropical island bungalow. At $15, if he can manage to sell even 1000 copies in the first year and continues selling 200 copies in each following year (which I recognize is still a difficult goal), he's made some significant money. Of course some of that goes to bandwidth and paying his team members, but still, if he puts out a new game every six months, he's got enough to help him avoid a nine-to-five job. Maybe even enough to avoid a real job all together.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Sat 13/01/2007 03:27:38
Binky, I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing. It sounds like you're suggesting that it's somehow more noble to thinking that a high download count is more important than the chance at some small profit
No, I'm not casting judgement one way or the other - these posts have been made purely in the mindset of curiosity, that's all. As Lemmy and I have both said before, nobody begrudges someone making some money out of a venture that's taken time and care.
I don't know how much money it's possible to make out of AGS games because I've never tried to do it. If it is possible to make enough to fund full(er) time development, then that's great.
What I was originally talking about was if your game made much less money that that - like a few hundred quid total. Is
that worth it? Of course you could argue that you don't know how many people are going to buy your game before you try. But something that makes that little could also be argued to serve more funtion if it were free and therefore being used as a marketing device to raise awarness of your games. I guess that's pretty much what H.E. have done with the free Apprentice games and then SJM to buy. People would probably buy SJM off the strength of the Apprentice games so therefore those free games have had some commercial benefit.
As I've said, I'm not trying to argue that one way is better or more noble than the other - these decisions are to be made exclusively by the author for their own motives.