AGS Games page review

Nellie · Thu 11/12/2003 17:28:04

I was just reading a thread at the JA forum where one of the members commented on our games page thusly:

"Thanks Len, for the link and the website in general - it's a treasure trove! Shame they don't have a page of games most downloaded and highest rated.

"

And I thought, 'well, yeah, a highest rated and/or most downloaded page is one of the things I look for when faced with a large collection of games that I'm completely new to'.

So I was wondering - would it be difficult to implement these things on the Games pages? And does anybody else think it would be a good idea to put them in there?

SSH · Thu 11/12/2003 17:33:56

I have thought that too, but then I thought: it's so obvious someone must have suggested it already and been shot down in flames by CJ's infinite wisdom, or something like that.

MillsJROSS · Thu 11/12/2003 18:32:40

I still would argue that our rating system needs to be more specific. It's a topic that's come up more than once, but I don't think we can correctly categorize subjects by highest rating. The ten point scale isn't specific enough, where my judging can be radically different from someone elses, and thus the final score isn't really comprehensive. We need to have a category based scale system (ie. Graphics (1-10), Music(1-10), Gameplay(1-10), Did you finish the game(yes, no)). And then average all that up. (Where if you didn't finish the game your score doesn't count, only because you can't correctly judge a game until you've played it to its entirety). Why would this be a better system? Because some people decide they don't like a game based purely on one subject (usually graphics), and to me that can ruin the rating of a game that deserves better. Where as this rating system would make it so the game isn't as effected by one area, and it would allow those who look for certain things to not play the games that don't get high ratings in those categories.

As far as most downloadable. Just look up Porn Quest in joke games section to see that the most downloaded isn't necessarily accurate.

-MillsJROSS

Pumaman · Thu 11/12/2003 19:50:10

There was originally a "List games by rating" option but this was removed because it was felt to be unfair - especially as games with only a few votes move around wildly in the ratings, and it takes 10-15 votes for it to settle down.

As for a "Most downloaded" order - well, I'm personally against that. As Mills says, just because a game has been downloaded lots doesn't mean that it's any good.

Bring this up raises a good point though - with it rapidly approaching 300 games, is the games page now becoming a bit unwieldy; and if so, what should we do about it?

QuoteWe need to have a category based scale system (ie. Graphics (1-10), Music(1-10), Gameplay(1-10)

I do like that idea, it'd be more useful than the current system.
I'm also thinking about adding a feature where if you vote 1 for a game, it asks for a reason which is then mailed to the game author. There are a surprising number of "1" votes, it'd be interesting to find out why.

Here's the vote distribution, in case anyone is interested.

SSH · Thu 11/12/2003 19:57:35

Maybe we can take a hint from the IMDB, who say, at http://uk.imdb.com/top_250_films:

Quote
The formula for calculating the top 250 films gives a true Bayesian estimate:

weighted rank (WR) = (v Ã· (v+m)) Ã â€" R + (m Ã· (v+m)) Ã â€" C

where:
R = average for the movie (mean) = (Rating)
v = number of votes for the movie = (votes)
m = minimum votes required to be listed in the top 250 (currently 1250)
C = the mean vote across the whole report (currently 6.9)

note: for this top 250, only votes from regular voters are considered.

obviously, 1250 is a bit high for min number of votes...

Maybe games could be categorised by further types: detective, egypt, atlantis, futuristic, ron, humourous, interactive-movie, etc. (each game could be in more than one)

Also, a bar graph of votes for each game, like IMDB, might be good.

EDIT:
Also, maybe there should be an indication of the Rogers won by games, to further help n00bs pick the best games, along with a "List by award winners" option

MORE EDIT: and maybe a list of broken website and download links need sto be compiled, the forum members contacted and if they don't fix them by, say, March, then the game moved to a special "broken links" category?

Las Naranjas · Thu 11/12/2003 21:49:04

I don't like ratings, for the fact that people like to give extreme scores far more than they do a balanced judgement. There's too many 10s there for people to have been taking this seriously, even allowing for vel's voting on his own game.

Nellie · Thu 11/12/2003 22:44:57

Yeah, that amount of tens is ridiculous. I'd guess it's mainly people trying to bump up the average score of the game they're voting for, rather than people who genuinely believe it's worth a ten. Darn cheating varmints.

I'll just put in a quick word in the defence of a 'most downloaded' category. I don't think the point of this category is to give a guide to the best games available - that's what the 'best rated' category is for. It's more of a way to gauge what response the games are getting, for whatever reason. A sort of populist category and downloader demographic survey combined.

QuoteAlso, maybe there should be an indication of the Rogers won by games, to further help n00bs pick the best games, along with a "List by award winners" option

That's a great idea.

Matt Brown · Thu 11/12/2003 23:03:26

Teh current rating system I feel does not do enough justice. If possible, I think that instead of having a flat 1/10 scale (where people basically just rate things 1 or 10) to a more detailed scale, (graphics, humor, gameplay, music). This would help people who value different things find games.

so basically, what Mills said

Gonzo · Fri 12/12/2003 00:28:45

Well with a 'most downloaded' page or box on the front page, the problem would be that people would click on that, it being the first game they're presented with, or an easy choice when they're not sure.

So that perpetuates that game being the 'most downloaded', and we might get stuck in a situation of one game dominating it for a long time, at least until a big AGS release comes along.

To clarify, I'd be more in favour of it measured over a specified time period. Like 'Most downloaded in the past week', or 2 weeks, or month - rather than a most ever. Whilst that's still liable to get dominated by a game, it is more open to the new releases and avoids the problem of old but still popular games racking up hits into the dizzy hundreds and holding onto the top spot.

You could even expand it to a weekly top 10 chart, to make it a bit more interesting, it'd be like the singles chart, but not lame.

Obviously I have no idea how to code any of this, but I'm just throwing some ideas out.

James Kay · Fri 12/12/2003 01:39:16

Maybe the reader's comments could be expanded to look more like Amazon reviews. Each comment has that user's own rating too, plus maybe a list of "if you like this, try...", like

A Adventure 1
User comment: James Kay
I liked the game! It was great fun. Highly recommended.
Game: 8/10
Graphics: 5/10
Music: 7/10

That kind of thing. Then, as well as an avarage score, interested potential users can browse individual scores and make up their own mind more effectively.

Also, a large textlist would be nice, listing just the basics (name, size, category, downloads, rating). A click would then lnik you to a simple page with the extra information, some screenshots, creator's blurb (all to be provided by the game's creators of course), links, user comments, etc.
I have often heard of an interesting game but then was unable to find it without a lot of hassle. A list like this could solve that, especially if you make it list-able in ascending/descending order of genre/name/rating etc.

I can see this would be an immense technical challenge, but it'd be so cool if it was like this, so...good luck!

RickJ · Fri 12/12/2003 04:36:45

I think CJ asks the right question:

Quote
Bring this up raises a good point though - with it rapidly approaching 300 games, is the games page now becoming a bit unwieldy; and if so, what should we do about it?

One way to do this would be to implement an advanced search feature that would allow searches based on overall rating, downloads, keywords (i.e. some of the new category sugestions) and also the LSV rating. Maybe make the keyword list moderated so that it doesn't become useless and is easy to use.

I would also like to have a keyword or new category for open source games and other resources. Maybe there could be a "Resources" page that is simliar to but seperate from the games page. I know there is a "Resources" page already but it's kind of static and is not an adequate link to the many resources people have made available for would be developers. What I am suggesting would be in addition to the existing resources page or could be made part of the games page. What I am suggesting is a resources page where peole could make their own submissions the same way we do for completed games. Oh well enough of ranting here

Las Naranjas · Fri 12/12/2003 09:13:20

hehe, I can imagine from experience elsewhere that a few reviews like the following would crop up.

A Adventure 1
User Comment : linkinparkrulz
Link doesn't work! kthxbye
Game 4/10
Graphics 2/10
Music 9/10

After · Fri 12/12/2003 10:00:33

Most downloaded:
Utterly useless. At best it reveals the effect of the sales pitch on those who haven't played it yet. In any case, it only counts clicks - attempted downloads - not actual downloads.

Impulse ratings:
I don't use them at all. There are lots of reasons that they fail, not least of which is that they are no way to address my interests in a game. How could they? People squirt numbers based on they don't know what urges, thinking that 'numbers' make it more objective somehow.

Form-based evaluation:
It may be possible to work something out, but I think that it would require very clear thinking about what it's for and what it means. I've yet to see a system that was telling me anything that I could use.
I think that the key is to ensure a broad enough range of ideas for intelligence to be able to find its own answers, rather than attempting some kind of ideal closure which is doomed to the limits of some theory.

Comments:
I do use (and make) comments. The advantage is that one can get an idea of the authors' attitudes as well, which puts the comments into context, making them more meaningful, whether or not you share those attitudes.

Community and Awards:
This seems the best of all options. The games come under the weight of community review, critique, contribution etc. But of course, it's no good expecting visitors to find that stuff.
So there are awards, and various forms of easily understood recognition, and these come from the very people who are in the best position to judge.

Taste and subgenres:
A classification into kinds would be great ... but I wonder if it's possible to find one that's really meaningful to everyone.
Likewise, a way of letting user preferences and opinions contribute to a "if you liked this then you may also like that" system would go some way toward telling us something that would actually help us to decide.

[EDIT]
BUT FIRST
a) Obligatory "Download size" info.
b) AGS version (as in operating system: MSDOS, Linux, or Windows).

LucasFan · Fri 12/12/2003 14:12:24

Does there exist a precise definition for that categories somewhere?

MillsJROSS · Fri 12/12/2003 14:40:24

Not really. It's really up to the author of the game. I believe there are some medium games that are the same size as a few of the full games.

-MillsJROSS

Mats Berglinn · Fri 12/12/2003 15:31:34

In my opinion some games feels that they are in other category than they're actually are. For an example, Pirate Fry 3 (which disappointed me at the end) was marked as medium but for me it was more like a short game to me. It just feels like that, somehow.

Captain Mostly · Fri 12/12/2003 15:41:08

I didn't add RL&BAT top the games page, and always wondered who put it in medium when Rode Kill & Larry Vales (don't get me wrong, great games both) get to be full length games... but I don't really mind. I think everyone who's going to play it has played it by now.

After · Fri 12/12/2003 18:50:07

I would've played RL&BAT, except that I have Win2k and no way to run pre-AGSv2.15 DOS games

Any chance of a Windows release, CM?

BerserkerTails · Fri 12/12/2003 23:54:16

Yeah, there's a couple games I would switch around in those catagories...

Flashbax would be a medium game (IMO... It only took me about a half an hour to finish), whereas 5 Days a Stranger would be full (As it took me 2 days to finish)...

But that's just me.

remixor · Sat 13/12/2003 01:23:17

I personally think subdivisions are a rather bad idea. One of the most distinguishing features of AGS games is that they often excel in one particular area without pretending to be great in others. Games shouldn't be published for this, it's just how AGS games are. Some games gain popularity because of great stories or dialogue, some for innovative graphical techniques, some for their puzzles, etc. Some do all of them well, but we shouldn't set that as the standard with AGS.