Any ethical limits?

[Ponch]

Personally, the Leisure Suit Larry games were the only "controversial" games I've found entertaining. I really liked Al Lowe's corny humor and his hapless protagonist. But, as has already been pointed out here, too often "controversy" often amounts to nothing more than boobies or shooting at cops or the like.

Since a freeware game is a purely personal effort, if you have something to say, then by all means say it. I'm not a big fan of censorship, but no one is entitled to an audience. If whatever you release is so offensive that Chris decides he doesn't want it on his site, then you'll have to host it somewhere else.

As far as my opinion goes, shocking for the sake of shocking is rarely of any real merit (anyone else here old enough to remember Andrew Dice Clay?). And, in the case of adventure games, since they require more story telling on the part of the creator (and immersion on the part of the player), anything that requires me to carry a dead baby around to solve puzzles most likely isn't the sort of game I'm going to spend much of my precious free time playing.

However, I'm deeply ashamed to say that GarageGothic got a deep belly laugh out of my because of the sheer unexpectedness of it. Maybe it's the sort of thing that works as an out-of-the-blue punchline rather than an actual inventory item. Good show, man!

[ManicMatt]

Ooh! That could be a new popular thread!

I'll start here! (Because such a thread will never exist)

Inventory items that should NEVER be in a game:

Dead baby   
Used Condom
Used Tissue
Puke in a bag
A dictionary of racist words
Character's appendix
The old xbox console with the old large joypad (The character would be anchored to the ground with that thing! Ooh that would actually be a funny puzzle)

Okay so my attempts at humour have probably failed... 

[Gilbert]

Oh damn it! One of the listed items was present from the stupid webgame on my homepage.

[Nightfable]

Just for fun... (because it's 7:00 in the morning and I haven't slept yet)

Inventory items that should NEVER be in a game:

-Infected ingrown toe nail
-Cat bile with some hair
-Al-Quaida strap-on bomb
-An umbilical cord connected to placenta
-A dead three-headed monkey's brain
-World of Warcraft game copy
-Tickle me Elmo

To stay on target of this thread, I just wanted to mention that pretty much anything can go unless you bring in stuff like dead babies, child abuse, pedophilia, incest, necrophilia, or any sick perverted deviation (for example, the main character is a pedophile and his quest is to abuse as many kids as he/she can before the game ends). Those things, in my mind, are unacceptable for a game.

[ambientcoffeecup]

So it's perfectly acceptable to have gratuitous scenes of rape and sexual violence, racism, the subject of paedophilia and antisemitism WITHOUT being banned from the forum and STILL being able to have your game displayed on the front page?

Someone mentioned earlier in the topic that it would be questionable if someone made a game about niggers and the KKK but they probably wouldn't be banned for it? Why the hell not? That shit is called RACISM and it is offensive and it is serious business. I know this is LOL the internet but that doesn't make things like racism more acceptable just because you can't see the consequences of the people you are offending.

Now don't get me wrong there's a difference between adding a racist element to your game, for instance a character who is racist because that is part of your storytelling and it happens in movies and books and I get that. But if someone was to make something like "KKK: Kill the Niggers Adventure" you think that would be acceptable? Because if someone was stupid enough to do that just for the sake of pushing the boundaries I would call for an outright ban and I think that not doing so is saying YEAH RACISM IS COOL WITH ME to put it bluntly.

In another Gaming Community I frequent there is a person there who makes his shitty little rm games and he fills them with hentai and violence and swearing and all this other pointless disgusting crap that he can throw in for shock value and I'm pretty disgusted every time he posts one of his new games at the replies he gets, "Yeah hey this is pretty Good." Why would you ever want to make a game just for shock value? Do you think it's funny or something to push the boundaries?

I'm sure most people here would prefer it if you devoted your creative time to actually outputting something good, with a story, rather than just COCK JOKES, SEX, VIOLENCE AND ANY OTHER SHIT.

Now if you have a story to tell, about a man who falls in love with an underage child, and kidnaps her, and keeps her in a cage, and beats her. It's PROBABLY not going to get a great response but that's your story and it doesn't represent your own views. My main problem was the response of "Yeah Racism wont get you banned."

EDIT:

I'd also like to bring up SUPER COLUMBINE ADVENTURE or whatever it is called in this thread. It's the most distasteful game I've probably ever bothered to play, but this kid has shot to superstar fame after making it (God only knows why it is the worst game ever.) And he is now having a film made about him and is actually working on pro games (About columbine of all things.)

I'm not going to link to the actual game because I don't think anyone should play it but you pretty much played out the columbine massacre in badly drawn 2D graphics. It had some stuff about Marilyn Manson and then you ended it up fighting Zombies in hell or something.

SHOCK VALUE. Do you think the guy really knew anything about Columbine whatsoever of the effects on the lives of these people that he might be bringing back traumatic memories and things. (Probably not, the game was pretty unrealistic.)

I'm not PRO-CENSORSHIP or anything but I don't think we've come to a point in life where it's acceptable to just brush off racism and things just yet.

[scotch]

It's a relatively grown up community, so I'd like to think that we're above shock games. It wouldn't work in people's favour to start posting them here. But, if someone released "KKK: Kill the Niggers Adventure" it would get removed from the games database because in practice it'd be a troll game, almost nobody would find it worthwhile so its only purpose would be to cause an argument. Chances are the game would have been created specifially to troll, and if they kept posting it, the person could be banned from here too. It's all about the intent.

On the other hand, if the racist game developer was respectful, didn't repeatedly post offensive things on the forums and didn't repost their games on the DB then they probably wouldn't be banned. Moderation isn't here to punish people's personal views when they're not causing problems. There are people on the forum that have expressed views I find idotic or disgusting, but as long as they are civil and respect the forum rules I would feel like some sort of thought policeman if I banned them.

I don't think that's close to the same thing as saying their beliefs are cool.

[MrColossal]

And he is now having a film made about him

A small correction, I believe he's making a film about himself. So...

[ambientcoffeecup]

Well damn that's actually worse!

[lo_res_man]

AGS to me is a tool, what you do with it is your own business. Ethicly I don't think you should make an unethical game, but its your game, your dream. IF your just trying to bug people, then ya, thats my limit. Wether you should be banned is at the discretion of the moderators.

[mkennedy]

If a game has a protagonist who performs reprehensible actions then the player will likely not be able to identify with the character and would then not find the game enjoyable. Each person  has their own limits to consider. A game that is poorly written will probably not get played even if the subject matter is controversal. The "Grand Theft Auto" games did well because they were well written and fun to play, (or so I've heard) not just because they were controversal. Games where the goal is to rape people or kill inocents are best avoided in my opinion, likewise I would find playing a racist to be objectionable. If such content as murder, rape, and racism are present in a game then they should not be glamorized and probably shouldn't be made light of either (Though making fun of such things has been done before in shows like South Park)

[Ishmael]

In the end, what actually is racism and who are the people getting offended for it? I don't remember the source nor exact content so don't quote me on this, but I've read something about the people targetted by racism very often being much less offended by it than the people watching by. Okay, KKK might be a bit off the top, but generally the context effects the situation a lot, especially after the society has racismised certain terms that were not racist at all to begin with. It's also a matter of open-mindedness, which seems to be in rather short stock these days.

As said, if you can't identify with the character you're supposed to portray in the game the game probably isn't much fun the play, but there are cases when you don't need to.

Say, in two almost recent FPS games, Rainbow Six: Vegas and Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter. the player is lined up against hordes of terrorists, who all, without exception, are Mexican. Were they of any other bigger non-caucasian origin the games would have probably gotten banned from the market.

[kookaburra]

My 2c worth...

The world is too serious a place now-a-days, particularly with everyone sueing everyone for sueing everyone.
So pushing limits (think South Park) is not necessarily a bad thing, the world could do with a bit less political correctness rubbish.

Having said that though, I can understanding pushing limits (within reason) for humour for example, but pushing them purposely to offend is _NOT_ something to be applauded.

Before you start potentially offending people, just remember that just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.

[Radiant]

The world is too serious a place now-a-days, particularly with everyone sueing everyone for sueing everyone.

That's not the World, that's just the USA.

[Emerald]

This is an interesting thread. I'm inclined to agree with the majority of people who've posted: If it's part of a mature and intelligent story, anything is fine with me, really.

Personally, as a writer, I'm a realist. I stay as true to life as I possibly can, and life isn't always pleasant, or nice, or fair.

I like to give a dark side to my character. A side that people might dislike, but I feel it must be there nonetheless. I think the greatest writers are those who can take a character who is extremely racist (or whatever) and make the audience love them regardless. Because it's true - racists aren't necessarily bad people. Sometimes they're very good people, who are just misguided.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Hey, remember the game "A Nigga's Revenge"?

Which Vince XII remade as "A Gentleman of African Descent Seeks Reprisal"?

Says it all, really, doesn't it?

[Ozzie]

Well, if the source files get released so that an easy parody is possible, then I'm all for it.

To be honest, I'm not tolerant towards intolerance. It would weaken tolerance.
There are controversial topics you could make a game about, without being racist, homophobic,...

When Larry came out sex in games was a controversial topic (and still is in the USA, see Hot Coffee...).
Or you could broach the issue of incest, paedophilia...
But in a mature manner, not in the way "fuck as many school kids before time runs out" or something like this...
And macabre, dark humor is always welcome!

[Emerald]

Hell, Agatha Cristie's world-famous classic novel, "Ten Little Indians" was originally called "Ten Little Niggers"

To be honest, I'm not tolerant towards intolerance.

That's a paradox. If you're not tolerant towards intolerance, that makes you intolerant, which means if I was to follow your sentiment I shouldn't be tolerating your intolerance towards intolerance. And you shouldn't be tolerating my intolerance for your intolerance for intolerance. If that makes sense. So, basically, everyone should kill each other.


We all have our little intolerances. It's natural. My uncle's lactose intolerant... I'm not all up-in-arms about that...

[Babar]

Actually, it is now called "And then there were none", after originally being called "Ten Little Niggers"- Because of the poem. There is even an adventure game of it!

EDIT: Oddness. It was called both "Ten Little Niggers", and "Ten Little Indians", now being generally called "And Then There Were None".

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

That Agatha Christie thing is something that really gets on my nerves, by the way. If the rhyme goes Ten Little Niggers, then why not use Ten Little Niggers! Politically incorrectnes my derriere, to me the book, films, play and game will always be Ten Little Niggers, because it's what the author originally intended.

[twin-moon]

With the risk of coming across like a grumpy old man:
What I find odd is that violence&gore in games is almost gratuitous while love is always kept on a Disney level.

actually, I can't remember a single game in which someone was married... whereas almost every puzzle where you have to press your thumb against a scanner to open a lock involves you sawing off someone's hand.

maybe I play the wrong games, but it feels a little out of balance.