Adventure Game Studio

Ok, after a competition in the C&A forum, 5 entries have been produced to be the face of the new AGS website. Give them all a look, and please reply with whichever one you think best reflects AGS, preferably with a reason why.

Please note, we're only voting on the overall design of the websites featured - details such as what the links are called, rewording of buttons, etc can be dealt with afterwards.

1. Darth Mandarb (A)
(http://www.twin-design.com/AGS/graphics/mockup01.gif)

2. Klaus
(http://www.agsforums.com/images/klaus-design.jpg)

3. Darth Mandarb (B)
(http://www.twin-design.com/AGS/graphics/mockup02.gif)

4. Scummbuddy
(http://invis.free.anonymizer.com/http://www.freewebs.com/agstrial/Untitled.jpg)

5. loominous:
(http://w1.872.telia.com/~u87210460/AGS/layout1_v4_2.png)

DarkArcangel also submitted a design, but I could never get the site to load and neither could anyone else by the sounds of it - Dark, feel free to re-upload it somewhere else if you wish.

Maaaaaan, trippy shit. They're ALL great, they really are. I think each one would suit the site. Honestly. But number 2, Klaus - that look is pretty perfect to me. It's all huggly. Sexful. 2.

Klaus made my favorite, it looks friendly and inviting. My 2nd favorite is looms Buisness looking site

I definetly vote for Klaus. It's the most original of the five, and I really like having the "news" section available on the front page.

Yep, same here. My vote goes to Klaus also.

Its a sleek presentation, and visually pleasing.

Klaus for me. I welcome the change. Although Klaus' ought to be larger vertically, I think. Also, I don't know how you feel about your commanding visage appearing on the front page. I approve, but you've always seemed the reclusive sort.

As I say, we're only voting on overall design. If Klaus's wins, for example, the banner of me would be removed or replaced with something more suitable.

Klaus for me too
Will the new website be based on the current one or will use something like php-nuke etc?

Klaus.
Now Everyone else vote!


How many ags forum members are there?

They're all fantastic, so it's hard to choose. I'd say Klaus' body combined with Darth's header image. Does that count too?

--Erwin

Not that I want to add to the landslide value of the voting so far but yeah, Klaus gets my vote.

And is that FoY in the 'games database' pic??

Klaus all teh way

I likey Darths (both, although I'm not real keen on the font used in "B") and loominus's....

My vote:  #2/Klaus

I like the layout since it's different than the way the site is now.  Yet it's still looks very easy to navigate.  It's not flat, like the site is currently.  If that makes any sense?

They're all really nice though!

#2-Klaus

but the pic from #5

Klaus...

And yeah, that does seem to be FOY in the games database... I think Klaus thinks that FOY will be released by the time the site goes up or something... I somehow doubt that though... what do you reckon m0ds? :P

I like Darth Mandarb's second choice.

I have to go with our sith friend, Darth Mandarb

Darths first one.

Klaus' is a very nice one, exceptionally well done and designed but I don't personally think it would work all that well with a website like AGS and the content the site has.

In my opinion it's too professional and too artistic to be functional and user friendly.

Darth A

• I think Klaus has the best overall structure.  The navigation seems to be both flexible and intuitive.    
  
  
• I like Loomis' color scheme.  It matches the forum's color scheme.  His banner is pretty cool as well.  
  
  
• I like the Darth-B headline "What is AG?" and his banner.  Both are really cool.  
  

All are good, although my favourites are Darth's (B) and loominus's. Both are 'friendly' and very "readable", and also match with the 'AGS style'.
Can we vote on 2? ???

Darth Mandrab's version A is absolutely the best one, look-wise and use-wise. Klaus's iframes are annoying.

Darth's 1st one, I was impressed by the look of it, and it's not too over the top, I feel the others are good in design layout, but a little faccid.

Bufff... It is very difficult to choose... I think I'd go for Darth's (A) but the clean design of the bluecup by loominous looks great, and seems like the "old true colour photo of the blue cup" has turned into a nice and professional logo.

I think it is impossible to choose without feeling a little pain in the hearth, missing something of the designs of the "non-choosed"....

Can we vote parts?

Darth A for me.

Darth A or Loominous.

Hmm... #4 is obviously designed simply to match the forums, which aren't that great themselves.

#3 and #5 look suspiciously like the AGAST website.

#2 looks like a site I would buy webhosting from, not where I'd download a freeware video game engine.

So I vote for #1, even though it too looks somehow familiar.  Can't think where I might have seen one like it, though.

Also, to join the mix'n'match crowd, I like the top banners from #3 and #5 better than the others.

Guess I should check the C&A forum once in awhile, I would have entered this myself if I knew it was going on.

Hmmm. There's no denying that AGS is growing. To be honest, and to be bastardy too -

Fuggit, don't worry.

I vote for Darth Mandarb A, because if I would be someone new to AGS, it would give me the best image of what to expect.

I'd go with Darth B (1st pref) or Darth A (2nd pref) because I think to new users, a page with a simple layout would be most appealing.   Klaus' work is defenitely the most professional looking design, but I think it looks too much like a commercial site, (MSN style etc.), and may be a little off-putting to the new user. Also the photo-style graphics don't really correspond with the style most AGSers make their games with (ie. hand coloured/MSpainted graphics are usually implemented for a cartoony style).

Anyone catch my drift??

I simply don't like the actual AGS website structure, too much confusing, and it's difficult to find what we're looking for (like the plugins page for exemple, had an hard time finding it)

I say, Klaus' design without the CJ banner, and with Loominous' color theme, banner and graphics (which means replacing Klaus' photos with more cartoony buttons)

Darth A - I've liked that one from the first time I saw it.

I would be happy with Darth' s Klaus's or Loominous's but ulimately, as long as the difficulty in finding things that Dorcan mentions is gone, I don't care about the style. Maybe a site map page that links to every page on the site would be good!

I go with 5.

+1 for loominus

As it is obvious, Klaus' gives us the coldness and business look, while the other gives us simplicity that we are all USED to. So I'm saying that having Klauses would change things in a different feeling. It doesnt have the same layout (games, links etc.), but it gives us something NEW.
[ I forgot to say that Klaus chose great pictures, that maybe to someone it means more than just pictures  :P ]
Lets say Scummbuddy's. (i think) He tried to make a feeling we are all used to and feel like home when we see it, the forum kind of layout. Tho I think his font is too big, I think the idea is still good.

As I'm looking for something warm, I'll choose... oh man, i really can't decide. I like Klauses news, and stuff and I like other peoples games part.... Really tough.
So I wont vote. 8)

If I may notice, I see that all of you makers chose (blindly  :P ) the blue color, as if you were trying to say something... I know the page now is yellowish (is it? ).

And now, did I made any sense up there?

My first vote is Darth A and then Darth B

JD

Darth A

As more and more magazines are finding out about AGS and we ARE getting more members, I think AGS could do with the revamped looked Klaus gives.

There's a section to the games, the community and it is in a refreshing style.

It's not that I don't like the other styles, or the current styles, I guess it's up to CJ as to how we wants to promote AGS to the world.

I still hear more talk of AGS elsewhere than other engines, like AGAST or SLUDGE so I don't think there's any harm in the site turning a little more professional looking.

:)

QuotePlease note, we're only voting on the overall design of the websites featured - details such as what the links are called, rewording of buttons, etc can be dealt with afterwards.

Seems to me a lot of people missed that part.

I agree the structure needs work ("community" is a great idea), but from a design standpoint, I like Darth's first effort best.
Plus of course the editor's bluecup theme as I stated in the other thread :) :

(http://www.strazer.net/ags/bctheme.gif)

I'm not sure this is allowed (if not, tell me and I'll take it down!)

But I had an idea, and modified my first design:

(http://www.twin-design.com/AGS/graphics/mockup03.gif)

I added in a 'front-page' news element.

Klaus, I hope you don't mind, but I just stole your news rather than typing new stuff.

~ d

klaus

One thing I don't like about klaus' design is the iframes.  I find that things like that, while these days supported by many browses, are wise to simply steer away from.  I feel it's better to just completely avoid compatibility issues rather than have a design that's probably compatible with most browsers.

I agree with remo. Also I personally feel iframes detract from the browsing experience, in lack of a better term. All pages with iframes have their own interface. Instead of a single scrollbar to scroll up and down, and possibly one to scroll left and right in rare circumstances you've got one or more scrollbars which completely break the methods I use to browse webpages. I can't use pageup/pagedown, up/down or the scrollwheel on my mouse and see all the content on the site. The only sites I don't mind seeing iframes are sites with little or no content.

I change my vote to Darth's last design if he agrees to ditch the cliché grid. The banner seems a bit too thin now as well.

Time for me to also say some word now:

Quote from: Bionic Bill on Sun 29/02/2004 22:18:59
Although Klaus' ought to be larger vertically, I think.

Actually the size of the layout is dynamic as you can see in the online demo.

Quote from: Os àšltimo Quão Queijo ^_^ on Mon 01/03/2004 00:26:09
I think Klaus thinks that FOY will be released by the time the site goes up or something... I somehow doubt that though... what do you reckon m0ds? :P

Okay, perhaps FOY will be available before a new AGS site design ;)

Quote from: Stickieee on Mon 01/03/2004 07:00:22
Klaus's iframes are annoying.

Well, they are not always visible: Depends on your screen resolution and the contents of the iframe of course...

Quote from: Krynge on Mon 01/03/2004 12:25:32
Also the photo-style graphics don't really correspond with the style most AGSers make their games with (ie. hand coloured/MSpainted graphics are usually implemented for a cartoony style).

I already wrote about this in the original thread (http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=11389): With some more time I'd have added pixelart to the headers and navigation areas and of course some other minor changes still need to be done.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 02/03/2004 23:10:52
Klaus, I hope you don't mind, but I just stole your news rather than typing new stuff.

Actually they are from the original AGS news section... So you didn't find them there? Interesting. ;)

Quote from: remixor on Wed 03/03/2004 00:06:23
iframes ...  I feel it's better to just completely avoid compatibility issues rather than have a design that's probably compatible with most browsers.

As far as I know only Netscape 4.x doesn't support this feature, all other "important" browsers (of course especially the current versions) do so. On Opera the right iframe doesn't open in correct size at the moment but this problem could be solved.

Quote from: Esseb on Wed 03/03/2004 00:35:40
Instead of a single scrollbar to scroll up and down, and possibly one to scroll left and right in rare circumstances you've got one or more scrollbars which completely break the methods I use to browse webpages. I can't use pageup/pagedown, up/down or the scrollwheel on my mouse and see all the content on the site.

The layout offers a maximum of two scrollbars. As the size of the complete page is variable in some cases it depends on the users screen resolution if the full content is visible or not (see above). Also some sections (let's say the news area) only need to be scrolled through one time. On your next visit there perhaps is one new message in this box, the rest is already known and so no further scrolling is neccessary. Finally you can use the scrollwheel on the iframes as you don't need it for the whole page here :)

Klaus in combination with loominous' logo/banner design

They are all fantastic, so it's hard to choose...

But i'd say Klaus's is the most appropriate- it's simple and with just enough measure of modern and oldschool design, to be pleasing to the eye while not being flooded with unnecessary details.

As for logo... it's tough choice too. I like the simplicity of Loominous's design, while the colors and pics of Darth's logo (A) might suit better Klaus's web site...

Klaus... although the picture of Chirs may scare away potential AGSers, maybe something more like the current AGS logo?

way to read the whole thread there :P

Hmm I really like  Darths latest one.

Yeah, Darth's new one rocks.

Totally.

I love Darth's newest design.. The top banner could use a little work, but like CJ said, we can worry about that later.

Klaus's design is also really good. Nice and modern looking, with quality graphics.. My only complaint is that i doesn't show any of the games, except for that little picture of FOY. I like having examples of games on the first page, because it gives newbies a glimpse of what to expect.

But if I have to chose, I'll pick Darth's latest.  A simple, eye-catching design.. Functional, but purdy as well :)

Yeah, Darth's newest one is sweet. When does the voting for this end?

Darth's latest design does have a nice look to it but it lacks adequate navigation abilities, IMHO.   Klaus' comes closer to filling the navigational need.  We should get those two together to work something out.   I would prefer a result that looks something like this one http://www.desktoplinux.com/index.html (http://www.desktoplinux.com/index.html).

The games could go down the right side and links dows the left and whatever content is selected in the middle.   Yeah, I know nobody will like it but me :).  

I like darths. it is cool but not over done. it says what ags all about to me

Darth's new design gets my vote.

Something about Klaus' just doesn't sit right with me, although I can't put my finger on what exactly.

I think the key is that the site does not look too corporate - it has to say 'cool fun fan community' not 'hardcore development application' IMHO.

Matt

Coming from a best usability view , i belive Klaus's is the best.

Remeber that what we see will be streched to fit at minimum 800x600, normally these days people have 1024x768 browser window, so there shouldnt be many frames, all text should fit ... which is what i was also concerened about, but for overall design definatly Klaus.

I wish I had stumbled on this sooner , I am a pro web designer & developer and would of liekd to give it i
a go ... ah well

Klaus is sheer style. It may not be as... cosy as what we're used to though. I really like the visual buttons at the bottom. However, I'll subscribe to the opinion that it needs a new banner at the very top. I mean, at least put capitals on the words...

Just my £1.12  (going on current exchange rates)

Darth's new one. Cept with the green circles and seperation between the navigation menu or at least some other color somewhere. Too much blue on all the designs. Smurf lovers.

If Darth's is chosen, I reckon it could do with a community thing too.

Right, well I've counted the votes, and we have the leaders as:

Klaus: 19 votes
Darth A: 16 votes
Darth New : 8 votes

This is a difficult one to call, especially as the new entry may have distorted the vote totals.

It seems like we're split between Klaus' new look, and Darth's adaptation of the current style. If anyone has a particularly convincing argument either way, now's the time to make it.

The idea that I originally had, and would work on any of these designs really, would be a different banner up top everytime you load the page (or hit refresh).  When the page loads, it selects a random number (say 1-10) and we have 10 different banners (or whatever number we want) and then the call for the graphic would be "banner#RandRange(1,10)#.gif" (that's in ColdFusion).  

Doing it this way we could even have individual game banners.  And everytime you come to the site a different game would be pulled up there.  Heck, we could even have the banners link to that game in the game's section.

Just a thought.

~ d

I voted Klaus because it will bring AGS into the future, it having the biggest change from the current design.

And ive had enough with that bloody bit down the right with the games :P

I don't know if this is particularly convincing, but I really don't think iframes are the way to go.  There's always the (slight) possibility of compatibility issues, and they make things harder to navigate by not having a way to universally scroll the page.  Everything is all sectioned up for no good reason, sacrificing utility for a pretty much unnecessarily compact design.  If the other pages (most notably the Games page) use this same iframes design, it would just make browsing games more difficult than it has to sbe, and if they don't use that design you don't have thematic cohesion between the pages.  I also feel that Darth's first design is more clear in the navigation department.  All of the things you need to click on are right up at the top of the page.  Klaus' may look more high-tech, but there really isn't any need to have the buttons scattered around the page.  Speaking of high-tech, this next point is completely subjective, but I just think Darth's design looks more "friendly".  If I were a first time visitor to the page, I get the feeling I'd be more likely to spend more time on Darth's page.  You can see more of the text without having to scroll several separate windows, and Klaus' looks more like a corporate website rather than Darth's which emanates the feeling of an internet project (that doesn't mean it's not well-designed, it just doesn't look as sterilized).  Anyway, none of this is meant to reflect poorly on Klaus' design or his design skills, which are excellent, I just don't think it's really suited to AGS.

my vote for darth a :D

I'd like to change my vote from Darth A to Darth New.

Also I agree with remixor, klaus's design is too sterilized, which I said before.  I hadn't realized it used iframes, that's another strike against it.  Not only are frames of any sort a minus-100 on both the usability and compatibility scorecards, the W3C has begun the process of removing them from the HTML specs entirely.  The specs already consider them nothing but a legacy feature retained only for backwards-compatibility; in a few more years browsers should follow in that thinking and they'll disappear completely (from the specs, at least).

I like Darth's New one, although I did like the green dots instead of just standard like links, but that's not too important.

I also Think that having Iframes can get quite annoying and also may not be compatible on some browsers. That detracts a bit from Klaus's.

I don't mind either way as they're both great, but Darth's new one for me

Aye, well, consider my vote changed to Darths new one as well - Didn't notice it until now.
I do agree with remixor, I would feel more welcome with that one than Klaus'. And with the added "news"-section it's as good as it can get, in my opinion.  

Remixor mentioned all the points I would give CJ so read his post twice and I'll save some typing.

I also prefer the old green dots of Darth's design and I preferred the two panel layout of his old designs if we've come so far as to discuss minor design issues already.

Oh yeah, and you mentioned you wanted a design that's simple to implement. That's another point for Darth's design over Klaus' which I believe would require various design variants on the various subsections like the games page etc.

Perhaps this is something to think about: It seems as if it was a mistake to already set up my entry as a working html page. Noone would have taken care about things like "iframes" if I only presented it as a screenshot with content that perfectly fits the boxes... Just from a screenshot you can't see how the page will look on other screen resolutions: Will the other submissions be placed on the upper left side and offer a lot of space at the bottem then? What happens for example if the news section in these screenshots gets more messages or simply counts another number of lines? I don't know...

For the iframe discussion: I really wonder who had troubles here to see the content of the iframes when browsing with his/her standard browser (not after trying this thing out with all browsers just for checking it. And even then...) Talking of W3C and its future is nice but probably only without taking into account some few people that are still using Internet Explorer or even developing it... :)

The scrollbars could also be set up with dhtml causing even more compatibility problems. That's why noone uses dhtml ;) No, of course this layout can also be created with fix content and without iframes. So the website's pages would probably all be different in length - but only have one scrollbar. Also every tab needs to load a whole new page then and not just switches between the content in the iframe.

Finally: To make it clear I also like compatibility and think it's one of the most important things in webdesign. But I can't see the iframe problem at the moment (so please tell me what standard browser doesn't show the content as I only know about NS4 - see some posts before).

Klaus, I just checked out your site with a few browsers, IE, MyIE2, Mozilla Firefox and Opera.

The only one that really screws it up was Opera, The Iframes were really small, making the whole page really short, they didn't adjust sizes like the other browsers.

I use Opera a lot so that's why I noticed that particular fault with Iframes.

I've done pleanty of web design myself and I know it's hard to get everything to work on every system, I do like using percentages rather than set widths as you've done, but sometimes certain little things don't translate well across browsers.


Just on the Iframes issue, Is it necessary?, I know It probably makes the outside design static and it just scrolls in the little bits, but you still have to scroll anyway.

I think I'm just picky about these things but I like to be able to see a bit more text rather than it being in a little box without being able to make it bigger.

Also if you use a mouse wheel you have to put the mouse in the box to scroll, rather than just scrolling anywhere (that's also picky but how I prefer to browse)

It's still a good layout (except the banner but I know it's just an example)

anyway, that's just my opinion

Quote from: Timosity on Tue 09/03/2004 09:03:02
The only one that really screws it up was Opera, The Iframes were really small, making the whole page really short, they didn't adjust sizes like the other browsers.

Yes, I already knew about this one (see some posts above) but I think it can be solved. What about "all the other browsers" that everyone is talking about..?

QuoteI know it's hard to get everything to work on every system.

Actually I didn't yet really check this layout for compatibility in detail. Of course I would do so if it comes to the point of setting it up for real. On the other hand I think Opera (nothing against it) is no longer that popular than it was 2 years ago - Mozilla is on its way up now.  Perhaps Chris can show us a statistic about the browsers used by the visitors of this site!?

QuoteJust on the Iframes issue, Is it necessary?, I know It probably makes the outside design static and it just scrolls in the little bits, but you still have to scroll anyway.

As the navigation icons are set at the bottom it is better to have them always reachable. If the length of the content field goes longer they might leave the visible screen. So you see it's part of the concept. But as I wrote we can also make the iframes go nonscrolling areas and so end in a layout with different length on probably every page.

QuoteAlso if you use a mouse wheel you have to put the mouse in the box to scroll, rather than just scrolling anywhere (that's also picky but how I prefer to browse)

That really is picky ;)

if not too late I vote for darths new one aswell

Darths old or new. Whichever is closest to win.

I Chose Darth A - It's the most userfriendly.

Not to offend anyone but Klaus suggestion is NOT suited for a site of this type, also it's of a design which is "so 90'ies" - everyone and their dog had that kind of design around 2001 and it's just overused and should be left to die in a cellar with locks on the outside.

IF Klaus suggestion were to be used, it would need templates for subpages too, I can't even imagine wanting to read a longer piece of text in a 150 pixel height window, that's just too annoying.

I really like the screenshots of Loominous though, more professional, it gives the feeling that with this engine  I can make professional games. - And that's also a good message to send. So my choice would be to take Darth A's usability friendly design and merge it with Loominous professional approach.

Regards,
Martin.

I vote Darth A

I think the news panel in Klaus would be strange since it'd probably never be updated and leave new users feeling like it's abandoned and i'm not sure about the pictures used. At first glance you can't tell what the site is about. Darth's is the most fun looking and i think that's what drew me to it and it's what AGS is all about! Fun! If i hadn't been away i would've entered :(

All of the designs are worthy winners in the end since they are all good :)

Quote
lease note, we're only voting on the overall design of the websites featured - details such as what the links are called, rewording of buttons, etc can be dealt with afterwards.

It seems to me that th only submission that oferes any improvement in the "overall design"  over the current website is Klaus'.  IMHO, the main problem with the current site is navigation.  There are a number of pages that I have no idea how to get to from the main page.  The only reason I know about them is that someone posted a link to them at one time or another in the forum.  

With all due respect I don't see how Darth's or Loomis' designs address this issue.   Although I like their graphical themes better than Klaus' they really haven't addressed the current website's weaknesses.      

I think the optimal  solution is to  incorporate Darth's and/orLoomis' graphics in to Klaus' navigational system.  Maybe scrap the iframes in favor of a "more.." link at the bottom of the box.  

In any case it makes little sense to not use some kind of portal or content management system to render the site.   Static websites are just that "static"; they are  burdensome to change and keep updated.   Using this methododolgy Klaus was able to deliver a working model in the same time frame the others were able to deliver only screenies.  

Why don't you guys, Darth, Klaus, and Loomis,  get together and come up with a solution that incorporates the best features of each of your submissions?   Let this discussion be your guide.   8)

Er, what exactly about Klaus' design is so great, navigationally?  I personally think that Darth's, with all it's navigational links right at the top, makes more sense than Klaus', whose links are not centralized.

Why don't we just leave the site as it is?

Quote from: OverWind on Tue 09/03/2004 13:00:45
... I can't even imagine wanting to read a longer piece of text in a 150 pixel height window, that's just too annoying.

I already mentioned this: The height is dynamic depending on your screen resolution so it usually is much larger...

Quote from: remixor on Tue 09/03/2004 19:45:27
I personally think that Darth's, with all it's navigational links right at the top, makes more sense than Klaus', whose links are not centralized.

Perhaps you missed the main difference: My layout does not only offer links to the main pages (community, links pool, ...), there are also tabs for separate areas withing these pages (information, features, ...). Also I wouldn't say that they are "not centralized" as they are always at the same place.

At the moment I still can't see how this navigation is handled in Darth's layouts: They end with a border but only contain a part of the first page's whole content. Where do I find the features and the other sub topics? How will the layout work then? Is there still that border that fits so nice with the end of the image bar?

For loominous design these questions don't appear as it is exactly the required redesign of the website. It sticks to the current way of navigation. But here we still have the problem that Rick mentioned and that I also had in mind:

Quote from: RickJ on Tue 09/03/2004 19:02:00
There are a number of pages that I have no idea how to get to from the main page.  The only reason I know about them is that someone posted a link to them at one time or another in the forum.

Quote
I think the optimal  solution is to  incorporate Darth's and/orLoomis' graphics in to Klaus' navigational system.  Maybe scrap the iframes in favor of a "more.." link at the bottom of the box.

I think without the iframes my concept wouldn't work that well. The tabs will turn to simple links. Of course this is also possible but not the intention of this layout. So it must be changed completely if no iframes are used: The navigation icons at the bottom could disappear with long contents and need to be put to the top. In the end we have a completely different thing. Perhaps it would look like one of the other versions with an additional sub menu line... Okay, not for real but who knows?

Quote
In any case it makes little sense to not use some kind of portal or content management system to render the site.

Doesn't Chris already do this in "some" way? I thought so...  ???

Quote
Using this methododolgy Klaus was able to deliver a working model in the same time frame the others were able to deliver only screenies.

Nice that at least one person takes this into account. But as you see: It was a mistake.

Quote
Why don't you guys, Darth, Klaus, and Loomis,  get together and come up with a solution that incorporates the best features of each of your submissions?   Let this discussion be your guide.   8)

Yes, that's one way to go...

Quote from: m0ds on Tue 09/03/2004 19:51:05
Why don't we just leave the site as it is?

...and that's the other way :)

In order of preference: loominous, Darth new, Darth A.

Quote from: Klaus on Wed 10/03/2004 08:53:39

Quote
I think the optimal  solution is to  incorporate Darth's and/orLoomis' graphics in to Klaus' navigational system.  Maybe scrap the iframes in favor of a "more.." link at the bottom of the box.

I think without the iframes my concept wouldn't work that well. The tabs will turn to simple links. Of course this is also possible but not the intention of this layout. So it must be changed completely if no iframes are used: The navigation icons at the bottom could disappear with long contents and need to be put to the top. In the end we have a completely different thing. Perhaps it would look like one of the other versions with an additional sub menu line... Okay, not for real but who knows?

That would make your design (which I like, visually) better, IMO. Iframes are the devil. There are very few ways of organizing a site that annoy me more.

Out of curiosity, when does voting end?

Neva!!1! Teh webmaster ares too lazy to change the whole site again11!!1 ;D

Quote from: DragonRose on Wed 10/03/2004 14:36:47
Out of curiosity, when does voting end?

Sorry, I should've made it clearer - voting is over now. It's between Darth's New design and Klaus's design. I hadn't realised that people would feel so strongly about it, so since the votes were so close, I'll allow the discussion to continue for a while to see if we can mutually agree a way forward.

If people are still split at the weekend, I'll make an executive decision and go one way or the other.

In my opinion, a site combining Darth's new design and Klaus's tab idea would work best. Each link at the top could go to a section of the site, then each section could have tabs that bring you to sub-pages. The design could go something like this:

AGS MAIN section:
--ABOUT TAB- the "what is AGS" stuff, with news and screenshots in side culumns
--FEATURES
--LICENSE
--DOWNLOAD- Engine, Demo

RESOURCES section:
--DOCS tab- beginners tutorial, plugin docs, etc..
--PLUGINS- the plugins database, which at the moment is hard to find from the main page
--FONTS- the old page with the SCI font pack
--EXTRAS- useful stuff like Wurd Proplems, links to GUIs, Instagame

GAMES section:
No tabs.. or the categories could be tabs..

COMMUNITY section:
Links to forums and irc.. may not need tabs here either

LINKS section:
Tabs could separate types of links, though it may be simpler to just put them all on one page..


Anyway, that's my take on it. There might be a better way to organize the sections-- I was just tossing out ideas. Another idea, instead of tabs, is to have drop-down menus, though that would still give us problems with compatability.. Whatever we do, we need to make sure the site is user-friendly and efficient.

I had originally thought of using drop down menus ... something like THIS (http://www.tydenbrammall.com/cargoguy), which is a site I did for a client of mine.  That should be accessible to almost all major browsers. (It doesn't work in Netscape 4.x but if you're still using a 8 year old browser that's your problem :))

A dropdowns system could be like this:

About AGS
- what is AGS?
- features

Games
- Award Winners
- Short length
- Medium length
- Full length
- MAGS games
- Non-adventures
- Joke games
- Demos

News
- Recent News
- News Archives

Downloads
- Download AGS
- Fonts
- Plugins

Forum (no dropdown needed)

Resources
- FAQ Docs
- Knowledge Base
- Tutorials
- Extras

Links (no dropdown needed)

So it would look like this:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/graphics/mockup04.gif)

Sorry for throwing yet another design out there ... but I want this to be the best it can be.

(The top 'bar' thingee would expand to resolution (going all the way across) and the content would be centered underneath it.)

~ d

dhtml makes my eyeballs bleed. Plus it can introduce all sorts of compatiblity issues on various browsers.

klaus because i like the little pictures on the bottom (the blue cup is especially nice). i just think the style is really nice with the pretty colors and the fonts. darth's menu thing is cool too, but i'm a sucker for color schemes, which attracts attention before you know even there's a cool menu.

darth: that cargo guy page rocks! :o

I just like all the publicity 6 Day Assassin is getting from this little contest

/me , under the spell of subliminal messages, downloads 6 Day Assassin, even though he already has a copy on his hard disk.

now play Ace Quest

Well, if we're worried about compatability, we could just make the drop-down menus optional, and have alternate tab links for each section. I just like drop-down menus because you can get to any page on the site directly from any other page-- nice if you're on dial-up, and you don't want to wait for a page to load if you're just going to skip the main page of a section to get somewhere else..

One more nitpicky thing I noticed: In darth's newest, the columns are all different lengths.. They should be the same. Also, I think the columns would look better if you used percentages for their widths instead of centering them.. The games column would probably look better static, but the center column should definitely change if the screen is big. Imagine loking at that page on a 1600-pixel width monitor..

Oh, and about the banner thingy, i think everybody (or not) would like it in one piece with the gradient way, and those stripes in the middle...

Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone who submitted entries for this contest. They were all excellent, and I'd be proud to use any of them for the AGS website.

It has now come to a point where we have to make a decision and move forward with it. It's been really interesting reading everyone's comments, and seeing what you do and don't like in a website.

So, after due consideration, I have decided to go with Darth's New design (see below for a reminder of which one that is). I really liked Klaus's design as well, and it was a tough decision to make. Also, well done to Klaus for coming up with the idea of including the News on the main page.

The main reason for my choice is that nobody has said that they dislike Darth's design. Klaus' design invoked some fairly passionate responses against the technology used (eg. iframes); and even though the complaints weren't really justified IMO, we have to accept that people have these opinions, and therefore using it as the website could put some people off.

Thanks again to everyone who entered.

Here's a reminder of the new design:
(http://www.twin-design.com/AGS/graphics/mockup03.gif)

Now there are the details to consider. Here's some ideas to consider - opinions are welcome:

* adding back in the green 'bullet-points' for the hyperlinks from the Darth A design
* strazer's idea for modificiation of the top banner
* dropdown menus
* reorganisation of the overall site navigation

In the meantime - Darth, do you have an HTML mockup of that design?

Good choice  ;)

I like the bullet points.. They don't have to be green, of course. I was thinking something like this:

(http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/smind/menu_bullet.gif)

As for the banner, I like the idea of having a few different ones. I do think they should be more colorful than the one in Darth's mockup, though. I think the blue tint makes it blend in too much.. I like the banner in the forum, because it has a nice range of colors in it. I think it's nice to have a little contrast from the blue color sheme..

I enjoy the banner loominous used. Do we need games merged into the banner? we have the games down the right and on the forums already ;)

I think that the decission of choosing the design who hasn't disliked anybody is wise...

Quote from: Privateer Puddin' on Sat 13/03/2004 18:02:13
I enjoy the banner loominous used. Do we need games merged into the banner? we have the games down the right and on the forums already ;)

Heh.. Well, a collage-style thing is sort of eye-candy. I think that's why people like a banner with scenes from games. Loom's banner looks good too, but it's a bit plain, IMO. Maybe it's just me, but I like the idea of a banner with a lot happening in it..

Here are some of the suggestions implemented:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/graphics/mockup05.gif)
(banner is blurry ... I just resized it.  Actual one will look better.)

CJ - I can whip up a template no problem.  However, why don't we hammer out what we want first.

Questions:
* Do we want drop downs?
* Do we want to restructure the nav system?
* any other changes?

My suggestions:
* Doing a 'Game of the Month' feature on top of the Games table
* Changing the width of screenshots so they're not so wide
* Equalizing the widths of the two side tables (news and games)

It'll save a lot of time and energy if we figure out what we all want first.  That way I'm not (or you're not) making change after change to the template.

~ d

PS
Thanks to all who voted and to all who entered the contest!  It was fun.

Most excellent. I love it.

QuoteDo we want drop downs?

I don't think they're necessary, but they don't hurt either.

QuoteDo we want to restructure the nav system?

I vote for changing "forum" to "community" like Klaus did, so that that page can house such links like the world map or the AGS member websites.

QuoteDoing a 'Game of the Month' feature on top of the Games table

Good idea. That way people see that the community is active.

Do you intend for the middle section to have percentage height and width? If not I vote for that at any rate.

You could possible put the links down the left side where the news bar is now and have them like:

About
News
Games
- New Games
- Old Games
- Games starring overweight pandas
Download
- AGS
- Fonts

Etc. That is if people decide to ditch the drop down menu.

The middle section of the site could have the news instead. The stuff that's there now really ought to be placed in a separate about section.

Do we need two bluecups? :| it just looks a bit bleh imo, how about one, and perhaps not rotated :)

Personally, I'm not a fan of drop-down menus. They make everything take 2 clicks to navigate from one page to another, which can get annoying.

Esseb's suggestion is a possibility, or alternatively there could be a second row of links underneath the existing one, which would contain the section-specific pages.

I also agree about taking the Forums link inside a new Community category, it makes sense that way.

As for Game of the Month; that's more of a problem because the site is currently static html, which would require me to go in and update it every time a new month came round. It's a possibility for the future though.

QuoteIt'll save a lot of time and energy if we figure out what we all want first. That way I'm not (or you're not) making change after change to the template.

Aye, makes sense. I wasn't sure if you were fiddling in HTML and then posting a screenshot - in which case it would've been cool to see how it adapted to different window sizes and so forth. But yes, that can wait.

I like drop-down menus, for reasons I stated above.. I think they'd work well, as long as there's also an alternative for people who have trouble with them. If we have a link to each page on the side column, of course, then we wouldn't need drop-downs.. But then wouldn't we have to take out the news column to make room?

I support making the middle column a percentage width.. Also the top logo, with the games banner aligned left, and the AGS logo aligned right. That would also make it easier to have changing banners..

Speaking of banners, I just made one that should fit the newest design:
(http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/smind/banner1b.gif)
Will this work?

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/graphics/mockup06.gif)

Added Ben's banner.

Changed 'forum' to 'community'.

Changed 'about' to 'home'.

Removed 'DOCs' from the nav (as it'll be in the downloads section)

Added a second row of links in the main box as an alternative to drop downs.
(I just used static links just to show the point)
- could also put another box above the news box with the 'sub' links in there.

Removed one of the blue cups.

something else maybe, just an idea though... there could be a cycle of AGS games in the database, of the 3 front page games, like at the MAGS site. So everytime you visit, you see some other random games.

just a thought... looks cool the site btw!

Congratulations Darth!

I just wanna say that Klaus'es rocked and he himself rocks for all the hard work he did with the website for mags and the voting and all that cool crap. You don't seem to post a lot here klause, but you've got my vote for being a cool bastard....

And hell yeah ben for putting my pic in the banner, may your children be fertile....

I posted up a template:

The new AGS website (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template.cfm)

I didn't use drop-downs, rather a sub-navigation element in the main section.

This is a template file (I just added some content to flesh it out).

What do we want to change?

* dots to a blue color instead of green
* mouseOver colors of links
* Game of the Month idea?
* fixed width as opposed to the % style now.  (the two side boxes stay the same sizes)

Any other comments/suggestions/insults?

~ d

Quotedots to a blue color instead of green

I like the green.

Maybe emphasize the submenu a bit more? Bold or add another horizontal line below it?

QuoteAlso the top logo, with the games banner aligned left, and the AGS logo aligned right.

That's basically a good idea. However, I've noticed it looks more awkward the higher your screen resolution is due to the blank space in the middle.
I suggest to use the montages as tiled table cell backgrounds and make the logo an alpha-blended png.
Take a look here (http://www.strazer.net/ags/website01.htm) to see what I mean.
You will notice the cell and thus the montage is 1 pixel bigger than the logo, so that has to be fixed if possible.

Congratulations Darth for the great work! (And to everybody who entered this 'competition', all entries were really good! ;) )

Anyway, about the site:
I really liked, just... the font used for "adventure game studio" in the top banner seems a bit 'odd' to me... what about using the font from the current banner?

It's just a thought, though, I don't know if it'd fit either. :-\

-Felipe-

Congratulations Darth, and Kudos to all entries.  


Darth, I looked at your template but couldn't find the sub-menu.   Speaking of navigation, what would you think of putting the sub-menu down the left column.   Maybe make the news just a headline and date.

Here are some other things (in addition to above) that could possibly be put in that lefthand column:

• SubMenu - Selectng an item from the main menu  wouold change the sub-menu.  Selecting from the sub-menu would only change the center column and possibly make some random game selections in the right column  as discussed elsewhere in this thread.
  
  
• News - Only needs to be date and headline of last two or three news items.   These are only quick links to the most recent events on the news page which is accessable from the main menu.  
  
  
• Ags Statistics - This could be somthing like the number of completed and in progress games, number of forum members, number of downloads AGS and games, etc).
  
  
• Login - Standard login box for games page.
  
  
• Poll - Set something up so CJ can easily create a poll.  That way it would be easy for him to solicit feedback from us about different AGS issues.   Also maybe have an archive of previus polls and their results.
  
  Maybe some other folks have some ideas about this as well.  I don't think everything has to be on every page.   For example, on the games page there could be a login box instead of the poll.  On other pages there could be other content in  that column.  
  
  What do you think?
  
  

RickJ - I think those are fantastic ideas!  I too thought of putting the navigation (sub) down the sides!  Only I would suggest making the main links (on the top bar nav) go to the first page in the sub-nav elements.  Some people might miss it if just the side changes when you click  a link from the top bar ... right?

Here is an updated version with your ideas:
AGS Website (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template.cfm)

NOTE: The side links don't work ... it's 4:30 and I'm exausted! I'll clean it up later!

~ d

Why must the about info be on the front page while the news is forced into that tiny unreadable box? How about putting the about info in its own section and freeing the entire left section for links?

Thanks for prototyping all these changes, Darth :)

Personally I'm not sure about having the sub-links in the left hand pane. It looks confusing the way some links are across the top and some are on the left - as a visitor to the site I wouldn't be sure which bit was the main sections and which bit were sub-links. I think we should either have them all at the top, or all down the left.

I think Chris is right.. It is a bit unintuitive to have the main links in one place, and the dub-links somewhere else entirely.  It might just be better to have a second row of links at the top-- or go the more traditional route and just organize every link in the side column..

Strazer: I agree with you on the banner graphics. It does look odd with that big blue gap in the middle. Not sure I agree with your solution, though-- the tiled collage looks quite repetitive, and I'm viewing it at 1024x768.. Maybe a less obvious pattern would look better.. Or having the banner itself fade into a pattern (like clouds, or the grid Darth had before)..

Quotethe tiled collage looks quite repetitive, and I'm viewing it at 1024x768.

I agree, it was just to show what I mean.
The final collages would be a lot wider of course. In fact, if you were to incorporate random collages, each one could be just a different "viewport" of a single ultra-wide image.

I did quick mockups for both ONLY side and ONLY top driven navigation types:
- AGS Website (side-nav) (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template2.cfm)
- AGS Website (top-nav) (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template3.cfm)

~ d

Wow, the side-nav is actually pretty nice. My vote for side-nav.

Those look really good. My vote goes to the top navbar. Though the side navigation bar could be more efficient, if you take advantage of the space and put all sub-links on there at the same time..

QuoteThough the side navigation bar could be more efficient, if you take advantage of the space and put all sub-links on there at the same time..

I agree.

The banner could perhaps be a little taller.

I didn't make the banner taller ... but here's the 'open' side nav option:

AGS Website (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template4.cfm)

~ d

Darth: The site is looking great! ;)

Just a few ideas I had about it's 'distribution'...

As many have already mentioned, there are some sections that are hard to reach from the Main Page (I, for example, don't know how to get to the Plugins, IRC, World Map & other parts from the Main Page); so, I made this 'sketch' of a possible 'menu distribution' (hope you understand it):

- Main Page
*About
*Contact
*Features
*Download
*Game of the month
*News
*Polls
*Statistics

-News Page
*Recent News
*News Archive

- Community Page
*Forums
*IRC
*AGSers World Map

- Games Page (here, the games could be listed in the current categories)
*Award Winners
*Lenght
-> Short games
-> Medium games
-> Full lenght games
*Special categories
-> MAGS games
-> Non-advenures
-> Joke games
-> Demos
*List all by
-> Name
-> Date

- Resourses Page
*Docs (Knowledge Base, FAQ, To-do list, tutorials)
*Fonts (the page with the fonts)
*Misc (GUIs, Templates, Sprites, Music Pack, RoomMaker source code, Instagame, etc)
*Plugins (Plugins page, plugins tutorial, etc)

- Links Page
(no need to sub categories)

Well, this is just a small sketch - I'm sure that there might be things here that are not right at all.

Anyway, the site looks really nice as it is now (the latest version you showed), just... you removed the 'Current version' text below "Adventure Game Studio" (I'm not saying it has to be there, but it should be somewhere in the page) :-\

That's it.

-Felipe-

Darth, I'm glad you liked my ideas.  

Quote
Only I would suggest making the main links (on the top bar nav) go to the first page in the sub-nav elements.

The discussion is past this already but this is what I had in mind.  Guess I didn't explain that aspect very well.  

I like your latest prototype.  I think there could be more games in the right column.  In addition to pick of the month/favorites there could also be some that are randomly selected each time there is a page change.   So that coulmn might look something like this:

• Pick of the Month
  
• Most Popular
  
• Other random selections
  
• Statistics
  
  Just out of curiosity, will the final implementation be done with cold fusion or are you just using it to  make the prototypes, templates, etc.   I ask because much of the current site and the forum is PHP and some flavor of SQL database and I wonder what if any technical problems may be ahead?  
  
  Anyway great work...  
  
  

RickJ - Unless the server the site is hosted on allows for ColdFusion it'll have to converted to PHP.  I wouldn't mind doing all the programming if I can do it in ColdFusion (it's the only one I know).

Although, none of the elements on the page (templates) is specific to ColdFusion, I'm just so used to saving as .cfm that I do it without thinking about it!

Felipe - I removed the current version from the header graphic so it would be easier to update as new releases are made (and we all know how fast CJ works!)  I put it in the statistics section.  It's kind of down at the bottom and hidden ... but it is there ;)  Thanks for the kind words!

Using Felipe's suggestions about the nav and Rick's suggestions about the games ...
AGS Website v1.5 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template5.cfm)
I also condensed the tables on the side so they're not so seperated.  I think I like it more ... but what do you guys think?

~ d

That submit buttom isn't workin... j/k ;D

The site looks better each time, just a note about the menus:
In the Main Page links part, there's no need to link to Game of the month, news, polls and statistics... I put it there just to point that those things should be in the Main Page, but there's no need to link to them (since they are all in that page :-\ )

The rest seems ok, though (at least for me).

About the condensed tables:
They look good in the right but the "AGS Statistics" seems to be like a subpart of 'links'... or is it just me? ???

As I said, the page is looking better each time, congratulations!


-Felipe-

It is looking really awesome. Each version is improving on the last. Congrats for winning btw and to all other who entered, you did well.

What felipe said about the  statistics being a subpart of links. Yeah i agree, when i look at the left bar there seems to be alot of darker blue, and on the right, the headings have a white background. To me it seems weird/unbalanced. Like if your just looking one side, it looks awesome but with them together its a bit unsymmetrical.

About the 'blue heavy' left side.
I think it's a good idea to make the navigation seem 'set apart' from the content stuff.  It'll be noticable that way.  But if nobody likes the way it looks it's easy to change!

Updated v5 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template5.cfm)

* seperated the statistics from the navigation
* heightened the top bar (games montage - which needed to be trimmed)
* added in 'current version' to the top bar
* added in 'edges' around top bar.

Too much?

~ d

QuoteI also condensed the tables on the side so they're not so seperated. I think I like it more ... but what do you guys think?

I liked it better before. It's easier to tell the sections apart at a glance.

Ok, now that we have come to the point of discussing the overall structure, here are my suggestions:

Home
- About
- Features
- News
- License (AGS & all components)
Download
- AGS (incl. older versions!)
- Plug-Ins
- Extras (Fonts, Graphics, GUIs & other stuff. User-submittable links?)
Community
- Forums
- Members List
- Member Websites
- World Map
- Chat (=IRC, incl. quotefile, stats)
Games (More categories & Login)
- All games
- Award Winners
- In Production
- Hints & tips (Walkthroughs, forum-link etc.)
Help
- Tutorials
- FAQ
- Knowledge base (Integrate in tech archives?)
- Bug reports (Link to forums; What about the Bug tracker?)
- Documentation (Manual, Changes.txt, Future.txt, Techinfo.txt, Plugin API)
- Contact (CJ & Moderators, with pointer to forums)
Links

I'm with Strazer on the new menu fully expanded.  I think the solid bars on't look right either.  I wonder what it would look like if you indented the actuive sub-menu and got rid of the blue menu bars.  The menu on this website is an example of what I mean.  

http://deltascripts.com/ (http://deltascripts.com/)
copy link location and the paste it into url if you have trouble loading

Perhaps there could be an expand/collapse or sitemap button that would expand all the sub-menus at the user's request but would only expand the active menu item otherwise.  

The way that menu 'expands' was how I intended it with Version 2 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template2.cfm) note: CSS has changed, so that'll look off ...

I have made 2 new versions:
Version 6 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template6.cfm) - expanding/collapsing depending on page you're on.
Version 7 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template7.cfm) - fully expanded at all times.

I removed the extra bars in the header table ... It was clunky looking I think.  Also, I started fiddling with the link structure on version 7, but then I realized we're just going back and forth on that ... so let's wait for Mr. Jones to say which way he wants it!  And that'll be final.

I like the link structure of version 6,7, and the way Strazer suggested.

Mista Jones?  What way do you want it?

~ d

Fully expanded all the way!
And I liked the bars on the menu.
Anyway:

1.) Get rid of

News
- Recent News
- News Archive

IMO the link under "Home" is enough.

2.) Change "Fonts" to "Extras" or similar, so it can host other stuff too.

3.) What is "Awards"?

Man, it looks soo awesome. Can't wait to see it in action! Good job, d.

Great job Darth!!!   I prefer expanding only one sub-menu at a time because this is a more scalable approach, IMHO.  However, since the menu expansion will ultimately be done programatically (via php or other) then I see no reason why this couldn't be an option.    

Also, I wonder if it would make sense to have  "Download" as  a main menu item?  

• Download[/b]
  
• AGS 2.6
  
• Demo
  
• Fonts
  
• Other Resources
  
  Oh well, I guess deciding what goes in the menu will be another one of those discussions :).  I think you pretty much nailed the page layout and navigational concept though.  
  
  

1:st one looks best.

I dunno, I do believe we should include a little page about our publicity. Its not a way to show that "We're the best!", no, just to show the acclaim we've gotten, to maybe sway someones choice when just trying us out. They could read those reviews, and in some cases, tutorials, and get a better understanding about us.  We have been talked about in the press, and I think we should acknowledge it.  I don't think theres a reason to be too humble about it. I don't feel ill towards bripro because he has a screencap of him on techtv, i actually like him more. I would love to be on techtv, and adventure games were shown their glory on that episode.

Yeah, we can argue about the exact details of the links pane later on - but I have to say, overall template 7 gets my vote.

Nice work all round, Darth :)

So when do we see the change?!?!?!?!

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 19/03/2004 06:52:22
I removed the extra bars in the header table ... It was clunky looking I think.  

I liked it better with those bars... they really look 'good' there, and it was a nice way of putting the current version thingy... just my opinion, though :-\

Betwen 6 and 7?
hmm.... I like the fully expanded thing of 7 - It gets my vote...

Quote1.) Get rid of

News
- Recent News
- News Archive

IMO the link under "Home" is enough.

Yep.
Either this or remove the 'News' under "Home". ;)

And about the publicity page... I agree with Scummbuddy, they serve as a nice Resource too!
(I had put it in the menu system I'd made above but then removed it since you said that about having a thread in the General Forum) But I still think it would be better here; afterall, it's something mainly for 'newcomers', and most of them won't find the way 'till that Thread easily... :-\


-Felipe-

I prefer the blue section dividers in v5 to v6, but it does feel slightly obtrusive and what's up with the dark gray text on dark blue?

I have to ask why the about section of the site is so prominently placed (for the third time in this thread it seems) rather than put in it's own about section. AGS is not a major corporation. If the news stuff was in the middle instead there would be more room for the games bar with the current design idea.

Esseb - The dark grey on dark blue is because (for current versions) I altered the CSS file, so the old ones will look a little off (as they use the same file).

What does everybody else think about making the news items the main page?  I guess it doesn't have to be the about page.  That's just how the current site is so I used the same text...

But it's not a bad idea to have the news on the first page, thus providing more room on the side bar for the games stuff.

~ d

Personally, I think that the About section should be the default page on a website - if I arrive at a new website, the first thing I want to know is what it is / what it does.

Also, the AGS News page isn't updated very often (basically only when a new version is released) - so it's not like websites where news is added every couple of days. Therefore, I don't think the News should really be that prominent.

The huge space between the main section (the middle) and the bottom of the page really irritates me. it in fact really pisses me off!

Quote from: Pumaman on Sat 20/03/2004 11:00:21Therefore, I don't think the News should really be that prominent.

Fair enough. What irked me the most is how the news box seems to mess up the site design, but I don't have any other suggestions.

Edit: /me finally notices "A Friend Indeed" is the most popular game in the news box.

My thoughts exactly, CJ.

I think it looks really good in template 7, although I agree with Layabout - The gap under the "about"-section get on my nerves as well. Having all three sections equally long would be nicer, methinks.

If it's intended that the content of the new website be dynamic (i.e.  there is seperation  between content and layout) then it's premature to be complaining about uneven column lengths, IMHO.  I believe there are number of different ways of dealing with this depending upon which (if any) CMS or portal software is used for implementation.  I don't think this has been discussed so far, if it has I appologize for not having read the thread carefully enough.

The differences in column lengths is easy to fix.  Though some browsers won't display it correctly, some will.  But like RickJ said, it's not worth worrying about just yet as this is just the template.

My guess is that eventually the content (middle section) will be FAR longer than the side boxes.  Which will then look okay I think.

So ...

Are we all thinking Template 7 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template7.cfm)?

If so, Pumaman, do you want me to PM you with a link to the template?
(meaning one that isn't a .cfm file)

hoorah!

~ d

Sounds good, if you would Darth :)

Hey, Darth, the page is turning out to be really nice, and I have a couple of suggestions.

First of all, I don't think that the main "About/Home" page will grow that much that the main coloumn will outgrow the side ones, and I agree that it IS annoying that there's that big gap. But I have a simple suggestion for you -- put up a couple of a few screenshots of "working in AGS", such as its GUI window with some background picture in it, and so on. In fact, as a webdesigner/developer myself, I would've personally put it there regardless of whether I needed to fill the gap or not. I think it's very appropriate for a product such as an adventure game engine to see what environment one will be working at. That should also fill the gap nicely ;-)

Oh, and I don't see anything wrong with having the News section at the front, even if it's updated slowly, since after the first visit, the "About" thing would get old for me, just like many splash screens do on some pages out there. On the other hand, the "Home/About" page with some GUI/IDE screenshots WOULD look nicer/cleaner and possibly more inviting for the newcomers, so I don't really mind that either.

Anyway, my main suggestion is for filling the gap.

Can't wait to see the updated site come up on the main page! :-)

Just wanted to add this site as an example of GUI screenshots along with info:

http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/maya_unlimited/index.shtml

The screenshots don't have to be huge but it'd be nice to see the background editor window, GUI editor window, sprite editor, and so on. Perhaps with a text accompanying them with addition info. Just IMO, of course.

Quote from: Crichton on Wed 24/03/2004 05:03:41
put up a couple of a few screenshots of "working in AGS", such as its GUI window with some background picture in it, and so on.

I think that is a really good idea. People seem to not like the blank space, so why not fill it up with picures that show AGS 'in action'. Just dont make them all that big, or 56k'ers will complain.

I agree, maybe even show off some of the newest features with every final release, perhaps? For example, with the new 2.61-whatever version :P have the animation preview feature shown, I don't know what else. :)

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 21/03/2004 09:55:51
Are we all thinking Template 7 (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template7.cfm)?

Yeah, I like 7.

Just... what about the bars I mentioned - the onesabove and below the banner?

I think they 'fit' the site layout perfectly....
I really liked them ::)

Is it just me?
I mean, does everybody else dislikes them? ???


-Felipe-

I've already forward the template file(s) on to CJ, so if he wants to add the 'bars' back in there it's really quite a simple thing to do!

As far as the AGS screenshots of AGS, that's something easy as well.  

~ d

pumaman is teh penisgh!!!

Thanks for all your hard work Darth, it's looking really good :)

I made a few adjustments and uploaded a new version of the template here:
http://www.agsforums.com/template.html

The hyperlinks are all hooked up (but they point to the old-style pages currently).

Because the website is static html, I've removed the bits that would have required dynamic generation (number of forum members, game of the month). Once the site is all sorted and working, I'll decide on whether to switch the main page to php and add back these things.

One thing I am curious about - how does it look at large resolutions such as 1280x1024 and 1600x1200? Does the middle pane stretch too far, and could we cap the width of the page at say 1024 pixels somehow?

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 26/03/2004 20:10:08
One thing I am curious about - how does it look at large resolutions such as 1280x1024 and 1600x1200? Does the middle pane stretch too far, and could we cap the width of the page at say 1024 pixels somehow?

I run at 1280x1024 and it looks good to me.  Not too stretched out.

I upped my resolution to 1600x1200, and it does look a little stretched.  I don't know of a way to 'cap' the width of the tables ... a way to say, "If native res is greater than 1024, do this table width"  (I also now have a headache for looking at 1600x1200 ... ahhh!!)

Hmmm ... anybody know?  I'm sure it's possible.

~ d

Ok, here's some feedback. Although I run my computer at 1280x960 on a 19inch flat-screen monitor, I browse most websites in a window (and maximize if needed), which is roughly equal to a maximized 1024x768 resolution, and the site looks pretty good. There's no longer a gap with the added info. However, if I maximize the window at 1280x960 or do the same at 1600x1200, the middle table does stretch too much, to the point where the site no longer has that "neat" look about it. So, here are a couple of options -- either use a fixed width such as at http://www.2advanced.com (fixed for 1024x768 maximized) or live with the fact that it looks good maximized up to 1024x768 and hope that most people browse in windows at resolutions higher than that.

Now, as for fixed width, you'd have to decide what your minimum-resolution target audience is. Personally, if I were to fix-width it, I'd go for a minimum of 1024x768 maximized-window res. Because I'm quite comfortable with 1024x768 even on old 15inch-monitor laptops. But there are people that won't go above 800x600 on 15inch monitors, so it's up to you if you want to cater to them. Of course, there may be some people with 13-14 inch ancient monitors too but at this point I'd think it's their own problem because you can't possibly cater to the dinosaurs and still make the site look good.

Oh, and if you decide to fix-width similar to GameSpot.com, know that they fixed it for 800x600, which works ok but you'd have to reduce your font size to make it comfortable for everyone. So, you have to weigh what you think is the best combo/solution and go with that.

I'd also like to recommend the "We're on..." banners to be place under "Latest Release" window, either one after the other or one below the other. IMO, they would look better there but it's up to you. It's only a suggestion not a complaint. The "Lifetime archievment" award banner also looks a bit pixelated. Is it in a smaller frame than its real size? It would look better if the award was a smaller banner too.

Anyway, that is all for now. I can't wait until you update the site as the main and fully functional webpage. Even if you do have to fix it here and there. No offense but my eyes hurt looking at the old site :-D

Oh, and as for resolution detection, it is possible but not very reliable. A site like http://www.ve3d.com used to automatically detect a correct resolution and adjust the site content accodringly (more info available at once at higher resolution). The problem was that it only seemed to correctly detect it when the window was maximized, and a lot of people like to run in a "restored down" window, so it kind of defeated the point.

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 26/03/2004 20:10:08
I made a few adjustments and uploaded a new version of the template here:
http://www.agsforums.com/template.html

Looks really good (as I already said)... just a few notes:

- At the bottom of the page says "AGS banner by Cornjob; 3rd Anniversary banner by RodeKill." whilst the page uses the banner made by Ben (I think), unless, of course, you're going to put the old banner there, instead.

- I also think that the "We're on..." banners should be elsewhere - maybe below the Latest Release thingy, as suggested.

- Afraid of sounding too repetitive... but I would like to say (again) the page looked better with the bars above & below the banner ::)

Well, I think that's all I noticed.
Congratulations, once more, Darth, for your job ;)


-Felipe-

Yeah, I thought those blue bars above and below the banner made it look quite a lot better too. Just thought I'd back up that point.

QuoteHowever, if I maximize the window at 1280x960 or do the same at 1600x1200, the middle table does stretch too much, to the point where the site no longer has that "neat" look about it. So, here are a couple of options -- either use a fixed width such as at http://www.2advanced.com (fixed for 1024x768 maximized) or live with the fact that it looks good maximized up to 1024x768 and hope that most people browse in windows at resolutions higher than that.

As I'm still unsure about this, for now I think I'll leave it as is, and hope that people don't full-screen it at 1600x1200. Personally, I run at 800x600 so I'm not really going to design the site for a fixed res any larger than that :P

QuoteI'd also like to recommend the "We're on..." banners to be place under "Latest Release" window, either one after the other or one below the other. IMO, they would look better there but it's up to you. It's only a suggestion not a complaint. The "Lifetime archievment" award banner also looks a bit pixelated. Is it in a smaller frame than its real size? It would look better if the award was a smaller banner too.

Yeah this needs some work - I just copy & pasted the current content of the About page (but removed the features list as it will go elsewhere). I'll move or remove the bits at the bottom.

QuoteOh, and as for resolution detection, it is possible but not very reliable.

Yeah, I thought as much. It's a shame that this wasn't though of when HTTP was designed ;)

Quote- At the bottom of the page says "AGS banner by Cornjob; 3rd Anniversary banner by RodeKill." whilst the page uses the banner made by Ben (I think), unless, of course, you're going to put the old banner there, instead.

Good point - Ben, could you just confirm that it is indeed your banner, and I'll update the credit.

QuoteAfraid of sounding too repetitive... but I would like to say (again) the page looked better with the bars above & below the banner

Could you point me to what you mean by this? Sorry, I must have missed it in this thread somewhere.

I think Felipe meant this one as far as the banner goes

http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template5.cfm

Even just the blue section below the banner that contains the version no. It looks a bit strange with just a borderless banner IMO

Ah, thanks - I've made some adjustments:
http://www.agsforums.com/template.html?new

Darth, could I request a few new graphics that'll be needed. In the same style as the "what is ags?" header image, ideally I'd like ones saying:
"download ags"
"news"
"features"
"games"
"community"
"faq"
"resources"
"links"

Thanks :)

Ben's banner looks a bit wonky after Darth stretched it vertically so it needs replacing. With one in the size of the stretched one that is, not Ben's old which was too small.

I like the site CJ but the default link colours don't fit with the design.

Hmm, there's something about the added bars that seems a bit excessive. I think the top one looks good but the bottom one is a bit too much. Try removing the bottom banner bar but keeping the top one and maybe save it as template2.html. It's probably a small enough detail but I'd like to see it. Unless you really love the two bars already.

CJ - I PMed the title graphics link to you.

The 'bars' on top and bottom (like template 5) do look better!  I think Crichton's suggestion might look odd, but might be worth a try.

Also ...
Mabye we should have members submit banners they want to put on the website:
Dimension: 400x65
** should fade to the blue color (optional?)

Does anybody know a javascript funcition for randomly selecting a number, then assigning that number to AGSbannerX.jpg (where X would be that number) so that it could be a different banner each time you hit refresh?

I can easily do this with ColdFusion, but this is just static HTML.

~ d

It is possible that without the bottom bar it may look odd but without actually seeing it I cannot be too sure. I like the top bar but my main concern with the bottom one was that the "Current version" line already looks as a bar of sorts. It's pretty dark too, so the feeling is that there's a bar on top  (or rather on bottom) of a bar... But perhaps it's nothing. It doesn't look terrible the way it is now, so this is a minor thing. I'd simply like that version as template2.html to be able to either say "it DOES look better" or "nah, change it back the way it was". :-)

As for the JavaScript thing, is this what you're possibly looking for?
http://developer.irt.org/script/287.htm

There are other scripts where you define each existing banner in the script manually and then it just randomly rotates them, which means they can each be a different name like "thisbannerrocks.jpg", "myfavoritebanner.jpg", and so on.

It would be much simpler to add with php though, if CJ so desires.

Quoteshould fade to the blue color (optional?)

With my png suggestion earlier it wouldn't need to.

Ok, I removed the bottom bar, and the result is here:
http://www.agsforums.com/template2.html

As for rotating banners, that bit of javascript you linked to looks good - but what happens if the user has disabled javascript? Will they get no banner at all?

Overall, I'm a bit reluctant to convert the main page to php for performance reasons. Static html is very fast for the server to dole out and can be cached by clients, etc. I don't know if that is really an issue these days though.

Here's a new version of my banner in the larger size. It's a lossless PNG, so you can decide what image format to use..

(http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/smind/bannerbig1.png)

Is it possible to also have the ALT text rotate with the pictures? That way visitors can  find out what games are featured on each banner..

Quotebut what happens if the user has disabled javascript? Will they get no banner at all?

AFAIK it would work with the NOSCRIPT tag:

...
</SCRIPT>
<NOSCRIPT>
This will only be displayed if browser doesn't use JavaScript
</NOSCRIPT>

Maybe where it says 'latest version: x.xx' you could also have 'latest beta: x.xx', with a link to the beta's release post on the forums.

Hey, Chris, I'd first like to say that I honestly like the template2.html version a lot better (ie without the bottom bar). It just looks perfect, IMO. Nothing is excessive and the overall look is very neat.

As for those who do not have JavaScript enabled, the "NOSCRIPT" tag would work well, as someone mentioned before. All you'll have to do is pick a single banner that you think best represents AGS and add this:

<NOSCRIPT>
<img src="whateverbanneryoupick.gif">
</NOSCRIPT>

I think that's better than simply adding a text that says "You don't have a JavaScript enabled".

You know... Now that I look at the two temples some more, I like them both about the same, so the "bar" is really just a minor cosmetic thing, and probably a matter of preference. Neither version ruins the site. So, it's totally up to you, Chris.

Quote from: Timosity on Sat 27/03/2004 14:16:59
I think Felipe meant this one as far as the banner goes

http://www.twin-design.com/ags/template5.cfm

That's exactly what I meant!

Loved the new version(s)! ;)

Now, about the below bar... well, it might look better without the second bar if the top bar 'was' the same way the bar with the "Current version" thing is...
(I mean, the same height and same "blue color")

That's not a big deal, and it looks cool either way; but I think that if we added that 'symetry' (sp?) it would look nicer... ::)


-Felipe-

How about a new favicon while we're at it? Can't really make out the old one (on the website):

(http://www.strazer.net/ags/favicon.gif)
(ICO format here (http://www.strazer.net/ags/favicon.ico))

EDIT: lol, first time I notice the YABB one  :P

Quote from: Pumaman on Sat 27/03/2004 13:50:04

QuoteHowever, if I maximize the window at 1280x960 or do the same at 1600x1200, the middle table does stretch too much, to the point where the site no longer has that "neat" look about it. So, here are a couple of options -- either use a fixed width such as at http://www.2advanced.com (fixed for 1024x768 maximized) or live with the fact that it looks good maximized up to 1024x768 and hope that most people browse in windows at resolutions higher than that.

As I'm still unsure about this, for now I think I'll leave it as is, and hope that people don't full-screen it at 1600x1200. Personally, I run at 800x600 so I'm not really going to design the site for a fixed res any larger than that :P

CSS level 2 provides a max-width (http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-CSS21-20040225/visudet.html#propdef-max-width) property for dealing with this sort of thing.  I would expect standards-compliant browsers like Mozilla, Firefox, and Opera to support it, although I don't know for sure.  However, I can pretty much guarantee that Internet Explorer won't support it, IE doesn't support CSS2 at all.  Still, it's better than nothing.

Quote

QuoteOh, and as for resolution detection, it is possible but not very reliable.

Yeah, I thought as much. It's a shame that this wasn't though of when HTTP was designed ;)

Actually it was thought of, and rejected.  HTML is for marking the grammatical function of each chunk of text; it's not supposed to carry any size, layout, or formatting information at all.  Stylesheets hold the formatting and layout information separately from the data structures, allowing display devices with different capabilities to apply different layouts to the same data.  HTML isn't just for graphical browsers running on Windows and MacOS; it's for cell phones, PDAs, text-only terminal shells, printers, braille displays, and audio screen readers, too.  Depending on the display device, "screen resolution" may not even be a defined concept, so it has no place in HTML.

Quote from: Felipe on Mon 29/03/2004 05:56:50

Now, about the below bar... well, it might look better without the second bar if the top bar 'was' the same way the bar with the "Current version" thing is...
(I mean, the same height and same "blue color")

That's not a big deal, and it looks cool either way; but I think that if we added that 'symetry' (sp?) it would look nicer... ::)

Felipe, that is exactly what I was thinking too when the extra bar was bugging me. Notice how the top bar also has a slight highlight and a shadow on top and bottom edges, unlike the "Current version" bar. Well, it does too but in a less noticable way. Perhaps it's worth trying to adapt the "Current version" bar to the same style as the top tiny bar (color wise) or vice versa (size and color wise).

Then again, it's not a huge deal. :-)

Anyway, I tend to be a perfectionist, so I pay attention to details, especially that once it's finalized, I'll have to stare at it every time I visit AGS. :-P

Well, I thought I'd give it a go at applying the template to all the pages on the site.

Unfortunately, neither Frontpage's Shared Borders system nor Dreamweaver's Template system seem to be able to cope with the links pane being a shared element, because it's part of the page's main table.

Is it possible to seperate out the links pane into a seperate table, whilst maintaining the look and resizability of the design?

How are the menus being handled? Is it through some sort of include?

In the template, I used a parent table with three columns.  The navigation  system is a nested table in the parent table.  So you could cut out just the nested navigation table and use some kind of include.

In ColdFusion you use:
<cfinclude template="navigation.cfm"> (whatever the file is called)

I'm sure there's some way to do that using php?

If you use an shtml file extension, you can do an SSI (server side include).  I haven't worked with that in years, but I remember something about it.

~ d

In php it's:

<?
include("navigation.php")
?>

I'm not sure if you can include .txt files or .html files.

Yeah, it can be done with PHP or SSI, but then I'd have to change the file extension of some of the webpages, which I'd really rather avoid because it breaks anyone linking to the site.

Anyway, as you've probably noticed I've updated the forum into the new style - it can probably do with a few extra tweaks, but it seems to fit quite well so far.

Also, one other thing - the new banner image is 40 kb, whereas the old one was 20 kb. The banner used up 1.2 GB of bandwidth on its own last month, and I can't really afford for that to double this month, so Ben I'd appreciate it if you can find a way of halving (or at least reducing) the file size without losing too much quality from the image.
:)

silly CJ just save it as a JPG

(http://sylpher.com/kafka/junk/bannerbig1.jpg)

10 something KB

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 04/04/2004 23:10:39
silly CJ just save it as a JPG

;D

Sorry to whoever designed that banner, but in my opinion its not quite as good as the old one. I'd probably try and design one if i had time.

I agree with aushor. I dislike the banner. That ugly dog is the thing I focus on, as it isn't a humanoid figure like the sublects in the other scenes. It's also bright white, and leads me to the female figure, which is also a bright image, which makes no sense visually as the image starts to fade right after her. *BRIGHT!**fade**BRIGHT!**fade**fade* No rythm to it, no gradual decline into blue. It looks like someone just took some screenshots and put them together without forethought.

I like the new background. Makes me focus my attention on the forum content, thanks to those horizontal stripes.

The dog isn't that ugly. I was just being rude out of jealousy, because it's so well drawn and so adorable.

Yep, the background is really good for the forums ;)

About the banner, well, the thing that caught my attention now that I saw it here on the forums is that it doesn't "changes smoothly" to blue... I hadn't noticed this before; maybe it's because of the jpg extension :-\


-Felipe-

Hmm, i dont know if its been changed, or i only just noticed it - the title on the forums is AGS - Adventure Game Studio, is it possible for it to take the name of the subject?

eg, on other forums it'd be View Topic - Bla bla

I really like this new style, I think it's very refreshing.

Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 04/04/2004 22:53:27
Also, one other thing - the new banner image is 40 kb, whereas the old one was 20 kb. The banner used up 1.2 GB of bandwidth on its own last month, and I can't really afford for that to double this month, so Ben I'd appreciate it if you can find a way of halving (or at least reducing) the file size without losing too much quality from the image.
:)

You could write a simple PHP randomising script, then have a few different mirrors of the image (hosted with the same people that host the AGS versions...?).

Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 04/04/2004 22:53:27Yeah, it can be done with PHP or SSI, but then I'd have to change the file extension of some of the webpages, which I'd really rather avoid because it breaks anyone linking to the site.

I would suggest making all pages use one format (php or shtml or whatever).  So that you can make a template.  It'll be much easier for you in the long run.

If there are people linking to the news page (acupdates.htm) you could make that page say something like:

I have updated the website, the page you are linking to is now located here:
http://www.agsforums.com/news.php

Please update your links/bookmarks accordingly!

Sorry for any inconvenience.

Or just use a redirect.  

This could work for any pages that currently use a different format.

~ d

Quote from: MrColossal on Sun 04/04/2004 23:10:39
silly CJ just save it as a JPG

Ahem, it's been a long day ... cheers eric  ;)

QuoteSorry to whoever designed that banner, but in my opinion its not quite as good as the old one. I'd probably try and design one if i had time.

If you can't offer suggestions for improvement, then please don't criticise.

QuoteAbout the banner, well, the thing that caught my attention now that I saw it here on the forums is that it doesn't "changes smoothly" to blue

That's a fair point, and it does look slightly odd. Ben, would it be possible to adjust the banner to better blend into the forum blue at that end?

QuoteHmm, i dont know if its been changed, or i only just noticed it - the title on the forums is AGS - Adventure Game Studio, is it possible for it to take the name of the subject?

oops, sorry about that - fixed now

QuoteYou could write a simple PHP randomising script, then have a few different mirrors of the image (hosted with the same people that host the AGS versions...?).  

good plan - luckily with eric's advice the problem is solved now, so no worries.

QuoteI would suggest making all pages use one format (php or shtml or whatever). So that you can make a template. It'll be much easier for you in the long run.

If there are people linking to the news page (acupdates.htm) you could make that page say something like:

Aye, you're probably right. I'll try and find the time to sort it out at the weekend.

I might have a go at a new banner, what pixel size does it have to be?

The current one is 400 x 65.

I know my banner isn't perfect  It's just something I threw together with the games I had on my computer. If anyone thinks they can make a better one (with older games as well as new ones), feel  free to do so..

EDIT: here's another one I just did.. I don't know if it looks better- it's just something different.

(http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/smind/bannerbig2.jpg)

Um, I dunno. I think banner should be less colorful (more similar blue tones and less contrast) and present main characters from different games, not just random trees or dogs. So It'll symbolize more games made with AGS.

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/bannerbig2_2.jpg)

Maybe something like that?

Ew. Keep the colors, please.
It's a nice contrast to the overall "blueness" of the site IMO.

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7295/ajabanner1.png)

I was bored :P

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6593/ajabanner3.png)

Here's a more colourful/brighter version.

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8445/ajabanner4.png)

One more, guys and gals :P

(I think the right side of the banner is quite nice, but the left side is a bit... crappy)

I think you should get rid of some of the space between Pib and Graham (sp) and use it for more characters.

I like AJA's banner.. However, I don't really like the way all the characters are in a row, all standing up straight, and all staring straight ahead. They're not doing anything interesting, and they almost look the same. Also, your last picture before the fadeout is a colorful picture of graham, when it should probably be something less bright, like the shot from Rode Quest..

I still think we should do away with the collage of games and go with a rotating collection of individual game banners.

Each time a person puts their game on the AGS site, there could be a spot to upload a .jpg which is 400x65 for their game 'banner'.

If they don't supply a banner, they aren't entered into the pool.

Then you'd see something like this:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/graphics/AGSbanner01.jpg)

Each banner could also link to that game in the games section of the AGS website.

Edit - Or CJ could create the banner 'pool' himself.  Selecting 10 or so to use at a time.  

I like that idea, if done properly ofcourse :P

Darths idea has got to be the best next to giving the site a new look. Damn, now I gotta finish a game.

QuoteI still think we should do away with the collage of games and go with a rotating collection of individual game banners.

I think that this is super idea. It also prevents this site having just one banner which some people would dislike. Variety! Yeah!

Thats the best idea i've heard since i joined ags! (wich was 3 hours ago)

But there's 1626 people in ags so think how long it would take to create the html to make the banner rotate like that coz think all thoese people make more than just 1 game so there would be thousands of banners to insert into html.

oh and wouldn't in take longer to load the site?

Darth, that idea is awesome, I'lll start work on a WWTLF banner right away :)

Quote from: spoofer4ever on Fri 09/04/2004 10:32:54
Thats the best idea i've heard since i joined ags! (wich was 3 hours ago)

But there's 1626 people in ags so think how long it would take to create the html to make the banner rotate like that coz think all thoese people make more than just 1 game so there would be thousands of banners to insert into html.

oh and wouldn't in take longer to load the site?

A vast majority of those 1626 have never completed a game.  Furthermore, not every game needs a banner.  Someone like CJ could probably decide on some of the more classic or essential ones.

I like the rotating banner idea. It would increase interest in games, since people actually KNOW what game they're looking at.

I'm guessing a LOT of newcomers wouldn't have a clue where that dog came from, yes? or that very last image on the right - it's impossible to tell what it is unless you've played the game.

At least with a WHOLE BANNER dedicated to a game, people see it and think "ooh! goody!" or "ooh! crappy!" as opposed to just "ooh! wtf?!"

Perhaps banners could include something like "[game title]...powered by AGS" or "AGS is used in games such as...[game title]".  My only concern might be that on first glance newcomers might mistake the front page as the official website  of a particular game.  This may very well be an unnecessary idea, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Quote from: remixor on Fri 09/04/2004 11:44:23
Perhaps banners could include something like "[game title]...powered by AGS" or "AGS is used in games such as...[game title]".  My only concern might be that on first glance newcomers might mistake the front page as the official website  of a particular game.  This may very well be an unnecessary idea, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

I thought about putting 'Made with AGS' in there ... but then decided not too.

I decided that most people coming to the AGS site know what they're coming there for and would probably figure that a game/banner was made with AGS.

But you could well be right!

Here's my entry; I also think that remixor's idea is worth bearing in mind.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/agsbanner11.png)

Quote from: spoofer4ever on Fri 09/04/2004 10:32:54
Thats the best idea i've heard since i joined ags! (wich was 3 hours ago)

But there's 1626 people in ags so think how long it would take to create the html to make the banner rotate like that coz think all thoese people make more than just 1 game so there would be thousands of banners to insert into html.

oh and wouldn't in take longer to load the site?

Hehehe... I think there are just 5 or 6 guys who actually finish games  ;)

I like Vel's entry.

It's very clear and concise. No mix-up about it being the 'home-page' for his game or what-not, PLUS it looks pretty groovy.

The only other thought I had, was that if it's only a limited number of banners submitted (5 or so), then it's quite possible for the SAME banner to be thrown up repeatedly using the random method. Would it be possible to 'sequence' them, so that every time you open the site, a cookie remembers what the last banner was, and selects ANOTHER one?!

People who finish games are many. People who finish games that are actually worth playing are few.

yeah - that's what I mean. I assume CJ would only want to put up games that reflect the true potential of AGS, which would cut the number of banners significantly, because most people are just out to 'make a game', as opposed to 'make a GREAT game'.

With such a limited number of possible banners, surely SOMEONE out there would have the problem of it's-always-the-same-banner-and-it's-annoying. no?

It's almost like over-promotion for one game, and under-promotion for another. I'm not saying that this will be a big point of debate, but there must be a fairer way to select which banner shows, rather than just randomize it...

I disagree, Peter. For me, it was make a game first. I made one(although not with AGS), finished it and I never released it, becasue it was crap - it's not that I didn't put effort in it, I just guess that a 11 year old cant do better  ::). Then came the challenges, make a mags-winning game, make an award-nominated game, and now it is make an award-winning game. People should start with little so that they can progress.

point taken :D

But, despite best efforts, first-time games rarely make the 'astounding' grade.

Or is that just me ?! ;)

First time games often show only the graphical potential of the creator; since you think"ok, Im gonna make a game with the first plot that comes to mind".

I think the best plan would be to use a single montage-style banner on the actual website, but then to have random rotating banners here on the forums. So each time you click around the forum the banner changes.

Quote from: Vel on Fri 09/04/2004 12:20:45
Then came the challenges, make a mags-winning game, make an award-nominated game, and now it is make an award-winning game. People should start with little so that they can progress.

Like you were talking about Apprentice :)

I was talking about apprentice a few posts above, Czar ;)

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 09/04/2004 17:15:47
I think the best plan would be to use a single montage-style banner on the actual website, but then to have random rotating banners here on the forums. So each time you click around the forum the banner changes.

I think this is the way to go.

Once a person reaches the forums, they know what's what.  But it could be confusing on the main page.

I have noting more to add this this conversation except to say that all you cool bastards that put my games into the banners will have a special place in squinky's funky loving afterlife....

Quote from: Squinky on Fri 09/04/2004 22:00:17
I have noting more to add this this conversation except to say that all you cool bastards that put my games into the banners will have a special place in squinky's funky loving afterlife....

I concur most vehemently =)

Rotating banners in forums is good. If it doesn't work, there's another idea:
On games page we have already a thing called "Pick of the month". Think...

In my personal opinion, I like the one we've got now

InCreator's made a very nice point. A banner whoch reflected the game of the month.

Or... here's my sixpence. What about a banner which included something from all the games that won awards in the current year? (new award giving=new banner, of course).

Oh well. If not, the rotating banner idea is wonderful, although I also think it'd need a mention of AGS somewhere in it, like, I don't know, ADVENTURE GAME STUDIO with the initials in bold in the lower right corner, out of the way but not to be missed...

Ok, well I've finally got my finger out and updated the website. The tutorial pages are not yet converted due for technical reasons, but I'll get them done later.

Other than that, if you notice any problems please do let me know.

Finally, I've added a new Forum FAQ here:
http://www.agsforums.com/forumfaq.shtml

designed to cut down on the number of repetitive posts we get. Let me know if there's anything you think should be added/changed on that page.

Is there a reason the page is displayed in a frameset?  I don't really like that if you are browsing the site by way of adventuregamestudio.co.uk, the address bar always shows the root address rather than the specific address of the page you're on.

It has always been that way and is by design, to show the adventuregamestudio.co.uk is the main URL to browse through. Otherwise, going via .co.uk would immediately redirect the address bar to agsforums.com. Since agsforums.com is just a temporary domain name I don't want people using in their bookmarks, etc.

For some reason, I don't remember even noticing that before.  Well, carry on then.

Hm. FAQ is very clear and explaining. But I think there's one thing missing: "How do I ask for help and where".

Like, people are still posting into tech forum to ask how to do this or that in some game...
And Beginners tech is at the moment a place to get yourself a free storyline for sci-fi game.
There could be some stuff in FAQ which explains how to ask for help, how to explain the problem, provide a problematic script if needed and so on. So far, many questions are like "I want to make Gabriel Knight 3! Where do I click?" and yeah, go and answer that....

strazer has kindly suggested an amendment to the top banner to tile the montage at high resolutions. Here's a demo:
http://www.strazer.net/ags/website01.htm

Do you guys have any opinions on going that way?

InCreator: good point, I'll add something about that. As for scripts and tech issues - the Beginner's Tech FAQ should cover that.

Not really keen on how it repeats at a high resolution :/

Whats up with that rotating banners thingy at the boards?

QuoteNot really keen on how it repeats at a high resolution :/

Well, that's the whole idea.
It's just a matter of how wide you create the montage. It's better than the blue gap in the middle IMO.
In the demo I've used an old crappy version of the current montage that is not really optimized for tiling.

Hmm, but then again, why tile it? wouldn't it be better to use this empty blue space to include a few more games in the montage? The overall design looks great, though!

yeh, why can't those with a higher resolution get more games eh?

and blue happens to be my favourite colour, so i have no problems with it.

Entirely possible. As I said, it's a matter of how wide you create the montage.
This way there would be more games visible in higher resolutions but it still works in lower resolutions.

EDIT
Here's a demo with a quick & dirty combination of the montages posted in this thread: http://www.strazer.net/ags/website02.htm (http://www.strazer.net/ags/website02.htm)

Quote from: strazer on Sat 24/04/2004 18:49:03

QuoteNot really keen on how it repeats at a high resolution :/

Well, that's the whole idea.

Yeh i know. What i meant (and i should have explained it better) is that its visible where one starts and where one begins whereas it fades into the Adventure Game Studio bit

Yes, I have nothing against the colour either, blue is great! However the space could be used for more games in the same size of banner. Or, just reduce the banner size a bit..

I'm in 800X600 resolution, and the banner fits in perfectly. :)

Check out the 2nd demo. To me it looks awesome in both 800x600 and 1024x768.

I like it  ;) . With a large enough banner, it looks great. But what about compatability? Are there any current, commonly used browsers that don't support alpha-blended PNGs?

Internet Explorer doesn't support them natively, so that required a workaround. Should be working with IE 5.5 and up.

I have tested it with Internet Explorer 6 and Mozilla Firefox 0.8. I've read Opera has full PNG support too, so there should be no problems either.

Ok, so no tiling then?
In that case, just add "background-repeat:no-repeat;" to the STYLE attribute.

Now, with this method, if the montages are at least 700 pixels wide, it would look great for both 800x600 and 1024x768+.
I actually like that better than the tiling.

Any opinions?