Hey folks, I think it's about time we address a couple of issues here.
New AGS website. It's been in development for ages, it ended up looking really good, and now it just seems to have died. Why? Why isn't it implemented yet, why did the interest and work on it just die out? You guys were close, but it's become forgotten in time.
Ratings panel. Has been inactive for a good 3 months now, with only me and one other rating a couple of games in that time. We need fresh blood there, do we not? I'm not a fan of "But it will get done when these people have time again". I don't think it's fair on developers, some of whom wait no more than a week to get their game rated, others months on end. If you're on the panel - I urge you to get rating, even if it's just one or two games.
Really, I should PM this to certain higher ups - but I'd like your opinions on these two subjects, so that I can take peoples comments to said PM in the future. I'm not entirely convinced the higher ups actually involve themselves in the community anymore. Games wise there are no problems whatsoever, I just get the impression some of the things we've been trying to do in recent years have come to a complete standstill community wise. And that's a shame.
If, on the other hand, you're fine and the above problems aren't problems for you - please do say. I'm happy to know I'm being over pessimistic here. But I'm one of those people who doesn't like to see a good thing flounder. Maybe you know something about one of these projects that I don't -- please, put my mind at ease :)
If there are any other community issues or projects you feel are being denied the light of day or need looking at to improve, now or in the future, feel free to write them here and I'll look into them. This isn't a moan, just a chance for some healthy discussion (hopefully) - if nothing changes it won't affect me personally. I've just been in an ultra-pepped up mood lately and things left in the shadows of time are haunting me :=
Yeah I was (am) a bit bummed about the "new" web-design delay. I put quite a bit of time/effort into that to get it to where it ended. However (and I know it's not really the same here) I'm quite used to that kind of thing in my profession. Things often get put on the back-burner like that! I have countless stories of pouring my blood, sweat, and tears into a project and then "they" never use it.
Having said that I'd still really like to see the new site be pushed live!
Adventure games are dying...sad...Some why I feel that, it won't be any adventure games without this community.
I saw website project some time ago and it looked great, but it wasn't completed by that time. It looked great, I think finishing that website would show that we're not dead yet.
Ratings...Yeah, things should speed up there. My game isn't rated yet, though I don't how long it takes to do that.
Even the old website and the resources available there are good and functional. A more polished look would probably do good, but I don't see it as a critical thing, and I believe others might feel the same, which might explain the lack of excitement on that front.
A more pressing matter, in my opinion, is the Ratings Panel. I've noticed that new ratings are handed down at a very slow rate, but I hadn't realized the situation there was as poor as Mods describes here. Then again, it's hard to demand results when the work doesn't pay a dime, and it hasn't been too long since the panel was last berated for "unfairness" on the boards, so some people might have gotten discouraged back then as well...
@TheRoger
I don't think adventure games are dying any more than I believe the world is coming to an end. There have been, and will be, ups and downs. Seeing how many games are being released in the community, and how many more are being developed at a fair pace, I doubt there will be an end in sight for a good while at least.
I like to add a few issues:
- The AGS map (http://new.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/worldmap.php) is broken and has been broken for months (years?). I'll have to add that you can use google maps for these kind of things without cost or anything.
- There are a couple of broken links on the site.
- This one is for Duals: The calender thingy is broken.
Quote from: Mods on Tue 31/05/2011 13:03:31
Ratings panel. Has been inactive for a good 3 months now, with only me and one other rating a couple of games in that time. We need fresh blood there, do we not? I'm not a fan of "But it will get done when these people have time again". I don't think it's fair on developers, some of whom wait no more than a week to get their game rated, others months on end. If you're on the panel - I urge you to get rating, even if it's just one or two games.
Yeah, I've been waiting for Snakes of Avalon to receive some rating since its September 2010 release. That's more than 8 months now! Even if coming to a consensus about the game was problematic back then, I think after such a long time evaluating it adequately is even more of a challenge.
Some similarly long-waiting, interesting games that I think had dwindled a bit into obscurity never getting a panel rating&review treatment:
Hard Space (3 June 2010)
Lightning Master (19 October 2010)
Professor Neely (15 December 2010)
A Raindog Story (8 September 2010)
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 31/05/2011 13:22:03
Then again, it's hard to demand results when the work doesn't pay a dime, and it hasn't been too long since the panel was last berated for "unfairness" on the boards, so some people might have gotten discouraged back then as well...
If reviews (and reviewing systems) are berated that means at least people care about them. The cups-ratings feature very prominently in the database and easily attract readers attention.
I play lots of games in the database just for the sake of it, and I've even sent a pm to the appropriate members of the board only to be ignored (i never got a reply).
Yeah, let's make this about me.
Anyhow, I feel that lately the community blues are getting me. The forums are swarming with new people, but I'm losing interest.
First of all I want to apologise for having been away from the forums...it's been some good 2 years since I last wrote anything here.
Although, that's not entirely true, I did spend some months not coming here, until someday I realised that AGS was my homepage, and so I begun coming here as a voyeur...and addicted voyeur!
C'mon guys, don't let yourself get discouraged, you are simply the best people on the internet! Seriously, surfing another forums of different subjects other than adventure games, I could not find anything close to the Ags forums.
You have survived the critical point where CJ declared that he didn't have the same time he used to have to work on the engine, I honestly thought that this was going down. But it didn't. And it still is great.
This subject has been discussed from time to time, either are the forums not what it used to be, or that some "important/popular" people stopped coming to the forums, etc... But the truth is that the forums are still here, for better or worse.
There's a lot of talented people here that inspire others for their love for adventure games, and they are enough.
I keep doing my games and graphics, only to throw away into some dark space of my HD, but, hey! Isn't it fun to start a different game!
And isn't it great when once in a while some great game shows up from nowhere? From a guy sitting behind is computer that shares the same love for adventure games?
And I miss that Spanish Evil-worshipper!
Keep it on guys! I truly, truly love you all!
Miguel Santos
I think the best proof that we are still going strong is the on-going Swarm project. Now, that is something special!
Quote from: Grim on Tue 31/05/2011 17:31:57
I think the best proof that we are still going strong is the on-going Swarm project. Now, that is something special!
Agreed. And games wise the current year is so far quite amazing in general! Much more difficult to stand out than in 2010.
AGS going open source and first new versions of it after that, as well as Calin&Peder's Nimbus-Bimbus Archives are incredibly cool as well.
There's no denying on the games front this place is flourishing. But yes, this is more about the map, the absent raters and the disappearing act of our new website. It just wouldn't do any harm to get these things working again, and I can't figure out why people would (maybe) rather they didn't - when they've all been constructed, proven to work and fun in the past. Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and thoughts though. I guess ultimately I'm suggesting CJ give up the community side a little too, make that a bit more open source than it currently is -so that we can carry on improving the place together. It's nice when things run at 100% efficiency ;) Anyway, nice stuff :)
Yep, I've been neglecting my duties. :-[
Aside from that, and to support Mods on this, I'd like to see:
1. The new website implemented.
2. An incentive to get the Ratings Panel working consistently again.
3. A re-organization of forum moderation duties. We have great moderators, but the roll call has been static for a number of years now, and I'd like to see some new names added to the roster.
4. As Mods has said, a more open approach to running and maintaining all aspects of the community.
Quote from: Grim on Tue 31/05/2011 17:31:57
I think the best proof that we are still going strong is the on-going Swarm project. Now, that is something special!
And itself a reaction to the community blues. Its success points to a latent desire of community members to be more involved, if only minimally.
On the other hand, it is one thing to complain about lack of enthusiasm within the community, quite another to commit a serious amount of time to doing something about it. The ratings panel is truly a thankless task: a lot of time required, and often a vocal minority hounding you about your decisions (good training for an aspiring politician, though....). However, should someone be enthusiastic about joining I see no reason to hold them back: they should be welcomed, and when their enthusiasm wanes the panel will be replenished anew, and so forth. This is how you build an institution that will last instead of stagnating and fossilizing.
As I write I have this irksome feeling I've said this kind of stuff before, (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=42016.msg556971#msg556971) if somewhat in jest. I don't mean to come across as the old fogey, but the proper way to organize a large group is through committees with revolving memberships, and a clearly stated set of rules that guides 1) their mandate, 2) how membership is replenished and 3) how members are removed, if necessary. My town, which has about the same number of inhabitants as the AGS forums (with many about as active....) has a library board, an arena board, a trail committee, an arts board, an economic development committee, a fire board, a cemetery board, a police services board, a medical and dental board, a BIA, etc. etc., not to mention the elected council that oversees all the business of the town. Now, I'm not saying that we need to formalize our interactions to such a degree (keeping minutes, regular meetings, etc.), but committees are the basic way of organizing and
perpetuating corporate entities. If things aren't moving forward we need to examine the organizational structures that have allowed initiatives to stagnate and redesign our organization to better meet the needs of the community in future. [/rant]
What this boils down to, in plain English, is a need for a website committee with a specific mandate to design, implement and
maintain the new website.
Quote from: Wyz on Tue 31/05/2011 14:15:02
- The AGS map (http://new.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/worldmap.php) is broken and has been broken for months (years?). I'll have to add that you can use google maps for these kind of things without cost or anything.
The map does use the Google Maps API. It's just I think they updated it at some point in the past, which made it not work for us anymore. I can't really remember how it works though, and the guy who was helping me with it (scotch) has disappeared.
Oh really? I didn't know that, but that's cool; That means it can be fixed. The error it shows now is something of a different kind, a redirect loop is caused when the page direct to itself and therefore redirects for eternity. Mostly it is caused by a faulty server script, or a page that has been moved: really not telling without having a peak in the script files.
I'm sure I could fix it if I made the effort. I don't actually have access to CJ's server anymore though, so I'd have to speak to him about that first.
I'm not sure why there is this mood taking over the forums, everyone is sad that the community is dying or that people can't be bothered or it's not what it used to be. Feeling sorry for oneself seems a touch self indulgent on a forum like this, people will do what they want to do, nothing more nothing less. At the moment we have a surge of new games and interest in moving the community onto bigger and better things, mourning things that have fallen by the wayside doesn't really make sense.
Sure, if you are passionate about a section of the site that isn't flourishing, get involved and get others excited. If you want to revive something, do it. Moaning that nothing is happening is bizarre to me.
I guess in summation, there's no point being negative, this is a fun forum and if something has fallen out of favour or into disrepair, i'd much rather be geed up into action than guilted into it!
There's no issues bugging me really, although I would like to see the website get a fresh lick of paint. The 'new' version was very nice last time I stumbled across it. I forget where it is now. The maps thing is a nice feature but I haven't used it in so long that I didn't realise it was broken. I'm sure someone could fix it so can we get access to the script and start calling on volunteers to look into it?
The situation with the ratings panel sounds quite dire and should be addressed too I think. The only query I would raise regarding all this is how do things work behind the scenes? Maybe i've completely missed the obvious - wouldn't be the first time - but I have no clue how the boards are run.
I know there are mods and you mentioned the Ratings Panel, but how does that work? How is it structured and is there a renewal system or a mandate like Baron mentioned or is it the same group of people? I have no gripes with the panel, i'm not qualified to - heh, still holding out for my first game aren't you?! - but I agree with Baron's suggestion that there should be a revolving flow of fresh members.
I guess i'm saying I would like to see more transparency about the way things are run, if only so that us mere mortals can see how we can get involved and who to address any issues to. There should be community run projects like the website and a (reasonable) number of groups for other housekeeping duties.
As I said though, I may be missing the obvious and i've never really had any problem that has warranted me finding these things out before now, so feel free to set me straight and ignore this post!
The problem getting members for the panel are threefold:
1. Not everybody wants to do it.
2. Those who want to do it may not necessarily meet the criteria.
3. Those who do want to do it and meet the criteria may decide they don't want to do it after all.
You can find out more about the panel here. (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=39821.0)
I was actually wondering a few days ago if there was some sort of hold up behind the scenes with the ratings panel and I guess I am not the only one that was thinking it. But then I noticed that a couple of games have recently been rated. I kinda feel weird for complaining about something like that especially since this is a fairly active and a great internet community and all.
Either way I think it may be a little hard to decide who would get to rotate in the panel and review games. How would one be deemed worthy to rate the games, regardless if they have been here awhile?
You got to remember it is a lot to do with people's free time at the end of the day. I think we have a strong community and our hearts in the right place, but we aren't the most productive with our aspirations on the forum/website side of things. These kind of threads pop up every year and we have a little burst of energy when they do, but the problem is keeping that momentum going.
I agree there,
this happens on all forums all over the internet, if some people do have the time to maintain and moderate it then things go smooth. The opposite situation is quite obvious.
But I do believe that ours/yours doesn't have that kind of problems, at least not a serious one.
All this years I've been coming here and I haven't seen this place stagnant, there's always a bunch of people really active and the mods are always present as well (some I've never read anything from but that's part of the experience :=).
The rating panel isn't a big deal for me as well, when I want to download a new game I just read everything related to it like the people that joined the project, pass projects, critiques and so on...
And I also think that the standard quality of new games only tend to improve, there always will be some new kid with his first game full of bugs and bad gaming choices, but this forum isn't afraid of telling people what they're doing wrong, so the next game will get better eventually.
I also feel that what maintained the forum quality is what some people consider as elitist, but that is the soul of the forums. It's not easy to get a thumbs up if you don't actually contribute to AGS or don't have the proper manners around the forum, and that's good.
So, like I said before, don't worry to much about the future, If you have something to improve and have the time for it just do it. If you don't have the time or aren't capable of improving it then just don't complain.
I haven't produce anything worth showing recently so I opted not to critique anybody's work or praise, because I don't want to waist your time and bandwidth.
But seeing this kind of questions coming up again made me want to write this words.
Take care, and C64 rules!