Conglangs in Adventure Games

MoodyBlues · Mon 15/12/2008 21:35:22

Okay guys, this is an issue that's been bothering me for over a year now, and I wanted to get some opinions on it:

How would you feel about hearing characters speak in only a fictional conlang (constructed language) in an adventure game? Would you find this distracting, gimmicky, or atmospheric? Would it depend on how the language sounds or what the game as a whole is like?

I really, really want to do this in my game. However, it's a lot of work, and I'm not sure if I want to do it if it detracts from the game overall.

On a related note, do you know of any existing games that do something like this? The only ones I can think of are Goblins, The Sims, and Rayman 2, but their speech is mostly gibberish without grammar rules and such. (And the less said about that Klingon FMV game, the better.)

Radiant · Mon 15/12/2008 21:50:53

I'm afraid I'd go for "gimmicky". I'm afraid I can't find the relevant Isaac Asimov quote at the moment, but I share his opinion that using made-up words doesn't improve a story, but merely makes it more confusing.

MrColossal · Mon 15/12/2008 22:04:22

Apparently the creator of Ico wanted to have no subtitles in the game and just a made up language be heard but he ended up putting them in. QFG5 had random people you couldn't talk to in the market speak a made up language but it was only a few lines. Out of This World [Another World] had made up language but again it was only a few words here and there.

All of these instances helped the game in my opinion [except QFG5 because it needed more than just made up language to fix it] I don't think you need to make a perfect language that has proper sentence structure, past and present tense that someone can figure out and read your game some day... But if you can slip in a few words here and there for me to learn and use them in puzzles, that's awesome to me.

I made a few lines of fake language up for Legendary and plan on keeping it in.

The only problem I can see is I hate it when made up language slips in to english and it does not sound natural. "We chased him into the alley but the neshgi bamfrat was already gone!"

Ghost · Mon 15/12/2008 22:05:04

I once played an indie IF game (called "Stranger In A Strange Land) that used a very logical conlang puzzle to the extreme; it basically challenged you to learn the language so that you could talk to a few natives. I found it an interesting puzzle, and to be honest, the lingo sounded extremely cool. If well done, I would be *very* interested in a game using a conlang all the way, but I think it's quite a challenge to come up with a good one.

A simple example can also be found in Ultima Underworld where you must navigate through a dialogue with a lizard man, but this is a failsafe example.

Mr.Collosal is totally right, by the way: The little "alien words" of FarScape prove that sometimes less is more- allow a "global language" and then insert cool-sounding stuff

Radiant · Mon 15/12/2008 22:17:43

Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 15/12/2008 22:04:22
QFG5 had random people you couldn't talk to in the market speak a made up language but it was only a few lines.

Yeah, that was Greek.

Trihan · Mon 15/12/2008 23:01:59

I have to go with "It would be cool" considering I have far more fun recording voice clips for the conlang than I do with the English ones.

Ozzie · Mon 15/12/2008 23:27:29

Oh, I thought it was wonderful in Rayman 2.
It killed a bit of the atmosphere when they changed it to real speech in Rayman 3...

MrColossal · Mon 15/12/2008 23:37:46

Quote from: Radiant on Mon 15/12/2008 22:17:43
Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 15/12/2008 22:04:22
QFG5 had random people you couldn't talk to in the market speak a made up language but it was only a few lines.
Yeah, that was Greek.

Yeah, a made up language.

Ghost · Mon 15/12/2008 23:48:53

Aren't all languages made up... sort of like, by us? Man, that sh*t is deep...

LimpingFish · Tue 16/12/2008 00:33:03

Captain Blood used something like this, I think.

It's characters used a language based on symbols (some with male/female, passive/aggressive variants) and covered everything from demanding the destruction of a planet to propositions for sex. Adding an exclamation mark symbol and a question mark symbol could also alter a characters response to the players chosen input.

The vocalization for each symbol was consistent across the species also.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/atari-st/captain-blood/screenshots/gameShotId,84640/

Man, I loved that game. Seeing it running on my then brand new ST blew me away.

EDIT: You can hear some of the speech on wikipedia (scroll down)

EDIT: Actually, you can see it in action here (1:38 is when the dialog starts).

Snarky · Tue 16/12/2008 02:00:58

I seem to remember that in Dune (from Cryo, perhaps not coincidentally the company behind Captain Blood) you could set the language to Chakobsa (the Fremen language). I'm pretty sure that it was merely a different font (some sort of hieroglyphic runes) for the same text, though.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 16/12/2008 07:03:06

I don't see any problem with it thematically as long as it fits the game. Look at all the made up words used in Disney's TRON franchise (some of which found their way into actual computer usage!). Look at Tolkien's Elvish language, or Klingon, or Vulcan. Hell, millions of people love such things as long as they fit the situation, so why shouldn't a game about another world have people speak with another language?

The only hurdle you have to overcome is how to convey understanding to the player in spite of the language barrier. One way to do this, of course, is the 'fish out of water' scenario, where the player is a human stuck in an unfamiliar land and forced to gradually learn the language here and there. It's an old method but it works effectively. There are other methods, of course, like subtitles (I actually did this for some of the German language in Our Finest Hour) or hieroglyphs with familiar shapes.

Thinking back, the adventure game The Kristal for the amiga (and later for pc and atari st) had a lot of little random words that really made me laugh as a kid, in a good way. The currency in the game are 'Skringles', and there's one scene in particular where you're going through a market and one of the fruit sellers is shouting 'Want some Frandannas? Fresh Froodle!' which is probably something Mr Colossal would hate!

SSH · Tue 16/12/2008 11:31:06

I did it in Rock, Rock, Rock. All the characters spoke in pictograms and grunts. Of course, the game sucked, so perhaps its a bad example...

Misj' · Tue 16/12/2008 11:57:38

Quote from: MoodyBlues on Mon 15/12/2008 21:35:22How would you feel about hearing characters speak in only a fictional conlang (constructed language) in an adventure game? Would you find this distracting, gimmicky, or atmospheric? Would it depend on how the language sounds or what the game as a whole is like?

If it's a true language I would find it tiresome (not in a negative sense) like watching a Chinese movie with only subtitles. You have to read all the time while your brain tries to understand the words spoken. Of course in a movie you will also see expressions, which will make it a little easier to understand...but movies normally have a faster pace than adventure games, where the player can take the time to read. Also, you would need good voice-actors in the sense that the sound/melody of the sentence already expresses the emotion/meaning. This is even more important in a made-up (or unknown) language than in a language I can understand, because it's easier to interpret that correctly anyway (on the other hand, it's also easier to hear when the expression was off).

QuoteOn a related note, do you know of any existing games that do something like this? The only ones I can think of are Goblins, The Sims, and Rayman 2, but their speech is mostly gibberish without grammar rules and such.

I personally hated the gibberish from the Sims...sure, I understand why they did it: it adds a sense of character without spending a lot on resources. But I couldn't help but feel it was some sort of parody of itself (and not a very funny one).

All things considered, I think most people would not mind playing a game in a foreign language...as long as it's subtitled that is. If I have to watch the same Chinese movie, but without subtitles, and still have to figure out what's going on...well...I'm not sure.

RickJ · Tue 16/12/2008 16:01:38

Quote
The only hurdle you have to overcome is how to convey understanding to the player in spite of the language barrier. One way to do this, of course, is the 'fish out of water' scenario, where the player is a human stuck in an unfamiliar land and forced to gradually learn the language here and there.

Either that or use the old "fish in the ear" scenario, where someone shoves a fish in the player character's ear and then everything becomes clear.

Dualnames · Tue 16/12/2008 16:11:37

Let's just nevermind games. Remember Tolkien's LOTR? The elves language? It sounded cool..and well, it was based on an ancient dialect.
Thing is if you create a language yourself that doesn't have random words(like you have two sentences where a word appears differently) it might work. As for yes, usually game feature just a little bit of random language.

miguel · Tue 16/12/2008 16:29:41

I would go for it MoodyBlues, for me it adds to the experience and ambience of the game.
Captain Blood was just amazing at that time, Limpinfish! Remember the intro music?

Magic · Tue 16/12/2008 22:11:54

Quote from: MoodyBlues on Mon 15/12/2008 21:35:22
I really, really want to do this in my game. However, it's a lot of work, and I'm not sure if I want to do it if it detracts from the game overall.

Just do it then.

Start small and create a basic scenario that implements it. Personally, I think it depends on the game and particularly its style. In a wide-open game like The Sims, it works great. If it's some gritty Film Noir game, probably not. Maybe an option

Also see the druidic (I think it was of such) alphabet used in the Ultima games. It was only used on signs as far as I remember, so it was a neat little diversion for a player to translate something and it wasn't crucial to do so.

Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 16/12/2008 16:11:37
Let's just nevermind games. Remember Tolkien's LOTR? The elves language? It sounded cool..and well, it was based on an ancient dialect.
Thing is if you create a language yourself that doesn't have random words(like you have two sentences where a word appears differently) it might work. As for yes, usually game feature just a little bit of random language.

To be fair, Tolkien himself was a linguistic expert and English teacher, hence how Sindarin works very well as an actual language. Not that I want to dissuade people, but it is a big task to accomplish. Tho Fan in Bioware's Jade Empire RPg was interesting but a quick google shows that some people (Including Asians) didn't think it was so great.

Trent R · Tue 16/12/2008 22:16:38

I recently played Dragonsphere which had some cool puzzles around a race's language (directions). I think if done right, it can be a very good puzzle design and feel in with the gameworld.

Also, I liked the immersion of the Daedric language in the TES games.

~Trent
PS-Ghost is deep.

LimpingFish · Tue 16/12/2008 22:29:40

Quote from: miguel
Captain Blood was just amazing at that time, Limpinfish! Remember the intro music?

I do. Jean Michel Jarre, digitized and looped. I hadn't heard digital music samples in a game outside of an arcade, and my jaw dropped.

I think that with creating a "new" language, a lot of the times it's just presenting pictograms (or hieroglyphs, as Snarky said) as an alternative to the regular English text. What I like about Captain Blood is that a number of symbols also had an audio equivalent, which, with better sound quality than was available at the time, raised the possibility of eventually being able to interpret what was being said simply by listening to it.