I am in the middle of working on the 3rd game in my series, and have come across a slight dillemma..
In Murran Episode 1 and 2 I took precautionary measures to not let the game progress if the player didn't have a required item. For instance, in Talons of Terror, I made it so that if the player didn't have the end-game-item needed (or the items required to build it on the spot), the end-game-confrontation did not occur. This kept the game from dead-ending (in this case LITERALLY dead-ending :) )
In episode 3, I have a bit of an issue that one or two items in the game are found very early on, but not used until the end of the game. Not giving anything away, but by the time you are needing these items, you are.. lets just say.. somewhere else, and are unable to get them any longer.
How do you, as a player, feel about dead ends in games? One thing I used to HATE about the old Sierra games of old were the dead ends. But at the same time, I used to LOVE the feeling of getting through something which would've been a dead end had I not had the foresight to get, use or do something beforehand.
Should I go ahead and include the dead-end in the game, or does it irritate you as a player to have to go back and restore a prior saved game to continue? I can personally go either way with it.
Thanks,
Bill
I think it's alot nicer to have different endings instead of a death end. Then in the end you can make clear that there is another ending possible and people might even replay the game.
I generally dislike dead ends but grew up with games that had them in abundance... so I might be a bit forgiving there.
If there's not too much "game time" between the point where I break the game and the point where I notice it is broken, I think you can get away with it. Doubly so if there's some hint that I am about to break the game. In that case, fair's fair, and I can still return to a slightly earlier savegame.
But if I literally become a walking dead five minutes after the start of the game and will only ever find out at the very end, with all my save games useless, I suggest you do something about it...
I'd also like to add that I enjoyed Murran2 quite a bit, despite
Spoiler
the horrible thing you did to the cow
.
Thanks for the input guys. I hadn't thought of the alternate ending idea, that is an interesting way to go..
Quote from: Ghost on Wed 15/04/2009 16:23:42
I'd also like to add that I enjoyed Murran2 quite a bit, despite Spoiler
the horrible thing you did to the cow
Hahahha :) I didn't do it, the big bad winged thing did! :)
-Bill
How about you add two difficulty modes one with dead ends one without..
Whilst it IS fun to know you survived a dead-end where others would fail, making you feel like a true adventurer and your reward well deserved... the majority of the people who play your game probably won't get that feeling because they'll wind up in the dead end, feeling frustrated or confused.
Since you're first two Murran Episodes didn't have the potential for dead-ends, then I'd try to make sure the consistency stays with the series.
~Trent
It's a nay without a question.
Basically rummaging througha whole game only to find out you can't get through would be considered just waste of time by me. Is it really necessary, that you pick up the object in the beginning of the game? Uou could just as well introduce it later on or make it obligatory in more than one situation, so the player wouldn't get to the other part without it either.
It's just, well, you find yourself in a dead end and sometimes go looking for a walkthrough, and people tell you you have to start all over again. Or like in Kyrandia 1. where you didn't have the bloody stones and had to go through a senseless maze several times just to check which one works. Yet you always had the possibility of dropping them somewhere. Makes you wander why, why really do that to the player, when with a little effort it could always be avoided.
(deleted)
If I come to a dead end half an hour into my game, I probably won't replay it, at least not soon. Though ie Broken sword made it tolerable and pretty obvious if you're
gonna do something that may cause death, but it's ok because it's pretty linear so there won't be a "wait, what did I do then?" moment later on when you have to try
to remember what you did wrong. Still think the most creative solutions are offered by games such as MI where a dead end or a silly move by the player is "punished" by
a joke, or even better by some cutscene which moves you to a point where you were about to make a mistake.
Dead ends, IMO often cause more stress than intrigue, there are plenty of ways to make the game fun like more endings (and by that I mean real endings like the
last cutscene or something), maybe even throw in a minigame that a player has to play every time there's a death to become alive again, or some sort of a time rewinding
...imagination is the limit.
What can I say, I'm a casual gamer, who's mostly in it for the story, atmosphere and puzzles, if I want stress I'll go play some fps. Is there a player who'll say he/she loved
dying in a game (unless it's funny or the actual goal) or that they've been stuck for an hour but didn't even know it?
Maybe if you don't have it with you then your partner could give it to you when it's needed at the cost of many points?
Of course to not make the solution too obvious he could also give you all the useless inventory items he also picked up.
Generally I like my games to be open with no areas that can only be visited one time.
If they didn't pick up the item, then later on, they have to solve the puzzle without said item, and the puzzle is harder. Bit like real life then. Oh darn I don't have scissors, so I shall use my teeth!
One word Morrowind...
I know it's not an adventure game, but hear me out:
Unlike Oblivion (the newest in the series), You can pick up and drop any item in the game (Oblivion gives no weight to 'quest' items and you can not drop them). I have played Morrowind for a good 100+ hours (I know your adventure game will not be this long lol) only to go on a guild quest and find that I have been to the area previously found a useless statue (not with hindsight) and dumped it randomly. I have no intention in starting again, and I have been to many of my 'drop points' in game and cannot find it. It is lost like a needle in a haystack.
Sorry for my random almost off point ramblings, however you brought up a painful memory for me lol..
So I would say no to dead end games.
((((p.s I use a lot of brackets))))
Put it this way... a game is like an interactive film.
Suppose you buy a DVD. The film is really exciting - it's ten minutes from the end, the heroine has been tied to a railway line by the dastardly mustachioed villain, a train is speeding towards her and the hero is desperately trying to untie her. The tension is mounting - will he free her in time? Suddenly, he says, "Damn," he says, "I should have picked up a penknife at some point during the last 20 scenes! Oh well, sorry, my dear!" and jumps away just as the train hurtles over the heroine. The end.
Now, wouldn't you just want to march straight back to the shop and demand your money back? There's nothing to stop a film-maker from writing a plot like that, but he sure ain't gonna win any Oscars for it.
OK, the plot of a film is fixed and you have no control over it, but you see my point. It's up to you, but dead ends where the player has no idea what they did wrong or what they should have done to avoid them are generally seen as a big no-no these days.
Wow Paolo, that was a really good analogy.
I think, based on the replies here, to keep the dead-ends out. I think I might take advantage of various ways to do puzzles as well as alternate endings. That could add to replayability, as mentioned above.
The only problem will be keeping the alternate endings in line with Episode 4 (which already has the plot hashed out)..
Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
-Bill
I don't agree with Paolo. In motion pictures ... yes. But we're talking adventure games here... Not pictures forced onto your retina... DIY!!! We are that hero... we need to figure out to pick up that knife. If we don't? Face the the concequences and tell the inlaws....
The beauty of adventure GAMES is the interactivity. The exploring, the trying, the failing, the common sense: how do I save this girl? And if I'm not in time... ? Try again... (also the beauty of games, so you don't have to tell the inlaws right away). With an autosave or autoretry would be nice, if not, weep, restore and try again. In my opinion, that is the essense of adventure games. If don't want to fail and retry? Grab the dvd and watch a movie.
If you don't want to end up in a dead end because of location changes, my suggestions would be to
1: rewrite the story so the items needed to solve the problem in the 'new' world, are available in that new world.
or
2: make sure the items needed are taken before the location changes. Either obtain them automatically (in some sort of way) or don't alow the change before the items are there.
or
3: Give the player clear notice of what's going to happen: you are going on a voyage and there's no return. Are you sure you want to continue? (maybe an autosave at this point in case he changes his mind later on).
The main problem with dead ends is that most players, when they realize, will just abandon the game. Those who are patient enough to replay it will most likely do so using a walkthrough, to avoid ending in a similar position again. In either case, you've just excluded a bunch of players from finishing the game in the way it was meant.
I'm not against additional content or bonus endings for thorough players. But even if I missed some hidden item along the way, I still want to be able to finish the game in a more or less succesful manner. One of the main problems in 'A Tale of Two Kingdoms' was that unless you picked up an item at the very beginning (that you had no reason to want in the first place, and the acquiring of which involved several actions that seemed out of place for the situation), you missed out on several subplots, a bunch of gameplay and had no way of getting the optimal ending. If it wasn't for the commentary track that provided motivation for another playthrough, there's no way I would have started all over just to see the proper ending.
I think that if you are going to put in a dead-end, it should at least be semi-logical. A recurring criticism here is of dead-ends caused by not picking up an item it wasn't clear you needed. I personally don't feel players should be penalised for this.
If the item is important later it shouldn't be hidden in a hard-to-reach location and appear dull and pointless. If you need it, it should be made clear that you need it; then if the player doesn't take it, it's their fault as the player not your fault as the designer.
To illustrate, two examples:
A dead end caused by not picking up a weapon: You die/can't escape a monster. Whoops! Well you did wander into the enchanted forest at night and that elf DID warn you not to go unarmed.
A dead end caused by not picking up a small frog which later turns into a prince and helps you unlock a door. Whoops, I guess you did wander into the enchanted forest without... your.. frog? Even if you pointed out the frog could well turn into a prince, there's still no reason to take it with you. This all relates back to logical puzzle design structure. Or cruelty, depending on your attitude.
As long as it is obviously a pick-uppable item, ie, has quite a presence on the screen and really can't be missed, then I guess it could work. Make sure you beta the hell out of it to judge if it is working or not. I'd be pissed off if I missed a 2 pixel square object I needed to pick up in the game. Or allow an alternative.
My first reaction to the idea of a dead end was, "BLAUGHNONO," but I guess it could work if you make it fair.
Some friends and I were talking about unfair dead ends in King's Quest V the other day. They couldn't believe that if you ate the custard pie at any point (a very logical action), you couldn't get past the yeti. A FREAKIN' YETI. Now, someone asked me if you could beat the yeti any other way - throw a snowball at it, for example - but nope, you HAD to use the freakin' pie.
So you could have fair dead ends as others have mentioned, or you could make picking up those items at the beginning optional and provide alternative solutions to the same puzzle.
Quote from: poc301 on Wed 15/04/2009 15:58:24
Should I go ahead and include the dead-end in the game, or does it irritate you as a player to have to go back and restore a prior saved game to continue? I can personally go either way with it.
Here's a thought: barring all progress for the player because he forgot something earlier is strongly frowned upon these days; however, barring
the best ending for a player, or the maximum score, because he forgot something earlier is fair game.
I hate dead ends... what you should do is have a side quest of some sort where you can obtain the items
Quote from: Radiant on Sun 19/04/2009 09:45:44
Here's a thought: barring all progress for the player because he forgot something earlier is strongly frowned upon these days; however, barring the best ending for a player, or the maximum score, because he forgot something earlier is fair game.
On the other hand, GarageGothic's comment just now has more or less guaranteed that I will never play
A Tale of Two Kingdoms, so this may not be something you'd want to do. If optional items are going to determine the ending, that had better be pretty damn clear as you play the game, not something you discover to your surprise and disappointment when you finish it.
I say build in some constraints so that the player
has to pick up the two items before they become unavailable. There's some good discussion of this approach here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=37242.0).
Oh, I didn't mean to scare anybody away from A Tale of Two Kingdoms, it's definitely worth playing. Just remember...
Spoiler
... to steal a rope from the castle at the very beginning.
Edit: I was just reminded of a horrible dead end in The Black Mirror (crap game, but many people seem to rate it very high):
Spoiler
You are trapped in a mine and finally have found your way to the surface, but there's a padlocked gate at the exit. In your inventory you have a revolver with two bullets left. You do the obvious thing and shoot at the lock, but unless you've looked at it first, you miss. So you spend your final bullet to finally break the lock, save your game and exit the mine only to find... a huge friggin' wolf that rips your throat out - unless you have a bullet left to shoot it with!
That's plainly sadistic game design.
I find dead ends frustrating, especially if they occur near the end of the game. You've spent all the time and effort to finish it, then you have to start all over/from a saved game, and if there is only a small amount of game left, that makes me feel as if I've done the replaying for nothing/for a small amount of extra game time. I remember in SQ4, you needed an adapter plug or something to plug into a computer near the end of the game, You'd buy the adapter in the Galaxy Galleria somewhere along the middle of the game, but I didn't kno w which one I'd need to buy. So I'd have to load an old save game (if I still had it!) and replay from there on, or replay from the beginning. Boy, have I played the beginning of SQ4 often! Perhaps I've missed a clue somewhere, very likely of course. In part because even though I did pick up the item it turned out to be the wrong one.
But I'd prefer if the player were guided/led in some (not necessarily stealthy) way. (Obvious ways are permitted and not frowned upon too heavily) Would an auto-save at a place where you had accidentally forgotten to get the item be an option? ManicMatt, you'd need a file handy to sharpen your teeth, and also an anaesthetic (for obvious reasons while doing this). Maybe also a dentist at hand/in your inventory?
So I'd go for 'nay'.