Hi everyone,
This is not really for Critics Lounge, as it's more a general question about what makes a good semi-maze?
By "semi-maze", I mean typically what you'd find in a good Indiana-Jones nazi base: it's rather large and confusing, but all-in-all it's not really a maze. It's not design to make you get lost.
Discuss choice #1 and choice#2, with variations A and B.
========================================
Choice #1 : Monkey Island 2 style
READ CAREFULLY:
- there is no top-down view of the corridors
- each corridor section is a (smart) variation of a basic background
- the payer is able to navigate in the corridors without getting lost
o Each background is easy to recognize,
o Most of them have their own purpose,
o The base is not too giant
That is what you see in the final scene of MI2 (even though, in that case, the corridor is straight and doesn't have any turns. But we can add some)
From 3:17:20 to 3:17:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerjOGn6jGo
====
Choice #2 : Last crusade style
READ CAREFULLY
- there is a top-down view of the corridors. The player has an idea of the general map of the place (even though, in Last Crusade, there is a very annoying Fog of War)
- the "regular" player view comes back only when he enters a room, or interstingly (see video) when he's in front of a locked door.
- There is only a handful of actual rooms, they are used stricly for puzzles.
From 37:50 to 38:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwsvTQfsD4A
====
Also important: In FoA, there are two variations of those two systems :
- VARIATION A : In the underground maze of Knossos, we have a variation of the Monkey-Island-2 style (no top-down map), except it's meant to semi-confuse the player by adding additional, useless rooms (some backgrounds are very similar to one another). But an attentive player can still find his/her way. (The rooms are not fully randomized, like they are in the Monkey-Island-1-monkey-head maze, or MI1-forest maze.)
- VARIATION B: In the city of Atlantis, we have a variation of the Last Crusade style (top-down view + rooms you can enter), except there are quite a lot of generic rooms, that are not here to confuse you, but instead to make the place look bigger (based on this background: http://imgur.com/a/jNECF#85)
Apples and bananas in my opinion. One is generally based on a pattern you need to find out (or find clues for), the other one is a 'real' and true maze where you just need to find your way, oftentimes accompanied by stealth or fighting elements to make it more interesting. I don't think they can be compared or discussed very much.
EDIT: Also, if I may suggest, putting 'READ CAREFULLY' in your posts in all caps is unnecessary. People here will read your thoughts if they deem them good and interesting.
Personally I prefer #1. That said, that is a matter of taste, and I think both can be done well or done poorly, so there's not really one that is strictly better than the other.
Quote from: DoorKnobHandle on Fri 18/10/2013 14:30:49
One is generally based on a pattern you need to find out (or find clues for), the other one is a 'real' and true maze where you just need to find your way
Actually, no :) I specifically explained that we are
not in the case of monkey-island-1-monkey-head maze. The backgrounds are not random, and you don't need to find the pattern to progress. You should have read more carefully ;)
Overvall,
we're not really discussing a maze here. But rather a large structure: does it need a top-down map? Does it need generic intermediate corridors?
I did read your post carefully. You did not explain that specifically, you put that under the Knossos variation. Either way, I still don't get what discussion you're trying to start here though, sorry! It depends on the structure is my answer I guess?
Quote from: DoorKnobHandle on Fri 18/10/2013 14:54:41
I still don't get what discussion you're trying to start here though, sorry! It depends on the structure is my answer I guess?
Yes, I know it's blurry, and I suppose it depends on everyone's preferences.
But Radiant started an answer : he said his personal taste made him prefer choice #1. Me too. My own reason : I don't like that top-down map from choice #2. And I like the cinematic aspect of full backgrounds.
What about you? Were you bothered by it when you played LAst-Crusade? Did you have more immersion with the map, or only with the succession of corridors in Knossos/MI2?
I think that immersion depends on combination of both view perspective and gameplay.
In my opinion, #1 is good when you want to show building entourage in most detail. On other hand #1 may be pretty annoying in case of real maze, because player may fail to see actual geometry of the base.
#2 is good when ability to actually see places you are going to beforehand is important (or required). It also gives better understanding of how places connect with each other, therefore is generally better for real maze.
To summ up: if it is not really a maze, and total amount of rooms is small, I'd prefer #1, because of, as you say, cinematic aspect.
I think it depends on the purpose of that section of the game. Each of the examples you give has specific reasons for using that style:
Choice #1 (Monkey 2 tunnels) is laid out like that because you are being chased by Le Chuck. You enter each room blindly without knowing if he's in there, and if you hang around too long he might enter your current room. You never know where he is until it's too late, and it's supposed to feel scary and claustrophobic.
Choice #2 (Last Crusade castle) is similar to the above (by hiding your view and filling the castle with Nazis) but tipping the advantage towards the player by letting them see enough to avoid the Nazis if they're careful enough. However you are expected to run into several of the Nazis as you play and either puzzle or fight your way past them, so this style helps the careful player pick when those encounters happen while providing an element of danger.
Variation A (FoA Knossos) is one big puzzle made up of a string of smaller puzzles, and rewarding the player for each one by showing them progressing a bit further through the maze. For example by showing them on the other side of a room they were in before which had an impassible ravine in the middle, or by them finding an item that clearly goes with an object they passed earlier.
Variation B (FoA Atlantis) is a friendlier version of choice #2. The goal is to find the non-empty rooms while avoiding the guards. Unlike #2 you are supposed to avoid the guards (if I remember correctly beating a guard in a fight just stops them patrolling for a while, it doesn't remove them) and avoiding the guards is much, much easier than #2 both due to the maze layout and the lack of fog of war. Also the generic rooms are not just there to be red herrings or to make the place look bigger, but to give you a hiding place while you let the guards walk past.
I'd also add that the Monkey Island 1 forest and monkey head are an option #3 or Variation C. While they are mazes, you're not supposed to solve them as such. In both cases you cheat the system and are given or shown a route through them. Like variation A the location itself is a puzzle - for the forest it is used twice to get to two different locations and for the monkey head the sequence only goes on long enough for you to see the 'scenery' and to confirm that you understand what you're supposed to be doing.
So I think you need to ask what the purpose of the location is, and what the player is supposed to be doing and feeling when they're in it. As for personal taste I most enjoyed choice #1, but only for the specific reasons above. One of my pet hates in adventure games is having to wait while my character slowly walks across multiple screens just to try something that doesn't work, and that's made worse if the screens have no (gameplay) reason to be there. If I'm expected to visit locations several times I'd much rather have a floor plan I can click to warp to a room, or an overhead map that quickly takes me to a location.
If it's not a maze, I would go with a top down view. I hate having to walk through a lot of empty rooms with no purpose.
@OneDollar : yes, you and me have pretty much the same appareciation. The purpose of the "large location" needs to be clearly defined. Thanks for your detailed answer.
In our specific case, the "issue" with having to walk through all the useless rooms is worked around using two tricks :
1) Double-clicking makes the character walk much faster.
2) There is a map inventory item with a "teleportation" feature.
So, the choice of leaving or removing those empty rooms becomes less obvious, and tough. The place needs to seem very large, and additional corridors help achieving that.
Quote from: Mati256 on Sat 19/10/2013 23:07:06
I hate having to walk through a lot of empty rooms with no purpose.
That's the main problem we're having so far: half the players love the mini map thing, they are thrilled by the arcade-game feel, and appreciate visualizing where they navigate. The other half of the players hates it: they feel like it's breaking the disbelief suspension, and they prefer the cinematic immersion of "real" rooms. :/
But so far most of the commentaries (here
and in our internal discussions) are in favor of something Knossos-style.