Diamonds in the Rough ending *SPOILER WARNING*

[GarageGothic]

I chose not to post this in the finished games thread for Diamonds in the Rough, to prevent spoilers by people forgetting to use the hide tag. If the mods think otherwise, please do move it.

A few months ago, I wrote a review of Diamonds in the Rough for a Danish PC maganzine. I gave it 6,5/10, which I think is its lowest grade yet (the weeks after release were pretty damn impressive when the average on gamerankings.com was 98% or something, but it's still at a solid 83%). I named multiple reasons, including the inconsistent implementation of the thought interface, the static visuals and a lot of running back and forth. But I could never explain my main grievance, as I didn't want to spoil the ending.
Now it's been several months since the game's release, so I think it's safe to discuss the ending without anyone peeking out of curiousity while waiting for their own game to arrive. I should say that this post has nothing to do with Alkis' questions about the panel's ranking of his game in the games database. I've been meaning to write this for some time, his post just reminded me.

I did not mean this thread to put anybody off buying the game. I add this after Snarky's post, because it was never my intention for someone who didn't play the game but considered buying it to read the spoilers. Here are some some more positive reviews of the game. Some of them mention the ending, but always in a positive tone (though in a secretive manner), so maybe it's just me being grumpy:

Just Adventure review - A
Adventure Gamers - 3/5
GameBoomers - B
Four Fat Chicks - 5/5


The rest of the post is pure *SPOILERS* for the ending of the game:

Spoiler

Ok, so the organisation that you work for turns out to be a bunch of racists, fighting for a racially pure America. The inspiration to this being an incident where the founder and current leader's sister was stabbed by a gang of black punks and lost her ability to bear children.

Jason, the player character's, amazing talent turns out to be... telling black and white women apart! Not by seeing them with a bag over their head or looking at pictures of their clothed booties, but by picking random numbers from a list through paranormal means. I don't know, but this seems overly complicated. Assumably the people who put together the list would easily be able to verify the ethnicity of the members of the sample group? The logical fallacy is that Jason is picking what they already know - how is this helping anyone? (see more on this below)

They then tell the chosen numbers to this girl who has the psychic ability to make the women sterile (I'm really not making this shit up) as a sort of poetic justice. Their plan is to make 100 women sterile in a year. They will then send psychic projections to all the news media in the country to tell them this (I guess it's more impressive than using UPS). They make the demands that all negroes must leave the country within a month, or they'll continue their efforts at a daily basis (what, 3-400 more sterile black women a year? I doubt that will even make a mark in the statistics). Once the blacks are gone, they will continue with all other non-white races. They'll really have to upscale their psychic gynecology department for this scheme to work out. Jeez, even sending out a group of crackheads on the street to stab random black women would have more effect than this.

They see Jason's special ability - the fact that he chose the black women on the list - as proof that they are doing the right thing, not realizing that he just choses what others want him to select. Ok, so this is why they need him to point out what they already know. But really, if they could convince the rest of America that Jason's list selection skills means that God or whoever wants an Aryan nation, then Uri Geller would be ruling the world.

Anyhow, Jason asks for some time to think, goes home, connects to the internet through a stolen wireless modem and his boss' password (poor internet security that doesn't check MAC adresses in a town where contact to the outside world is forbidden) and tells his story in a webcast (bloody emo). He's taken a deadly poison, because he can't live with what he's done: "17... 17 women will never bear children... because of me! Because of me!". Nikolas' excellent score plays during all of this, and brings the melodrama up another notch. "Can you hear me! Can you see me!" he says, before losing consciousness...
At the very same moment, there's a knock at the door. It's the psychic infertility girl who was the love interest before betraying you. She leans over him, saying "Don't die!" and Jason, as his last act, kisses the girl, thereby also poisoning her. At this point I couldn't help laughing, it was just all too much. There is certainly a dark comedic element in the writing, but I think my grin was a bit too wide. THIS was the monumental surprise ending that a letter in the game box begged us not to reveal???

All this is followed by an Afterword written by Alkis, where he details his research of racist groups during development. This is very fascinating, but I'm just still sitting there thinking: "That was it? That's the most stupid Evil Plan(tm) I've ever heard. It wouldn't even sound credible in a James Bond movie!" Even from a logistical point of view it just wouldn't work. Are you going to have that poor girl sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies all day? Aren't somebody going to locate you sooner or later? Even if the organisation is placed in the middle of nowhere, you can't build a whole town without leaving a paper trail - which any investigator looking into well-funded racist groups would pick up.

At the end of the afterword, Alkis mentions that some people didn't like the ending. As I read it, some of the beta testers were unhappy that Jason died at the end. I totally agree with you, Alkis, if someone tells you within the first 5 minutes of a game that he is incurably poisoned, then he'd better be dead when the credits roll - no magical antidotes to the rescue. No, the darkness of the ending is not what I disliked. I didn't like the ending because it was plain stupid and all immersion in the melodrama just trickled out during those ten minutes of dialogue with each line more ridiculous than the previous. I'm sorry, but this somehow made M. Night Shyamalan's movies seem almost clever. Can anyone please to explain the conspiracy plot to me in any way that makes sense? Alkis? Anyone?

Edit: Oh, I forget to mention Jason's nicely self ironic line during the bad guy's plot exposition: "When we first entered this room, I thought you guys were going to shoot me. I no longer think so.  You see, my fear of being shot eventually took second place to the dread that you are going to bore me to death with a droning account of your ludicrous propaganda." - and then it goes on for another five minutes. Spare some poison?

[close]

Don't get me wrong, the game does have some nice gameplay features, and the writing is mostly good, which my grade also reflected. But in this post I chose to focus on the ending, because I really want to know what others think of it. Or whether they have different ways of interpreting it.

[Andail]

I haven't played it but it sure sounds hilarious....of all evil plans ever featured in fiction, regardless of media, this has to be the most unlikely and illogical. Kudos to Alkis

[jetxl]

At least it's original.

[LimpingFish]

Hmm. For me,  I'm not sure how much a game's ending, however ludicrous it may be, would spoil it's overall rating. I can see how it would, or could, undermine any emotional investment in the story/characters the player may have experienced, though.

I haven't played the game, but from GarageGothic's description, it seems that Alkis had a tough time actually working out how to tie up the ending.

The...

Spoiler

...convenience of the stolen modem, the lack of a stronger reason for the agency to be using Jason at all, etc...

[close]

Coming up with ideas and plot points for how a story will play out dramatically seems easy enough, but actually executing those ideas in a coherent, believable way can be extremely difficult.

[Snarky]

Although I've been vacillating about whether to buy DITR since it came out, I have yet to play it. Still, I couldn't resist reading that spoiler, given how much all the reviews have talked about the ending. Clearly, a lot of people liked it a lot more than you did, but based on your summary it does indeed sound pretty ridiculous (I'm reminded of The Village, if only because that's another story where reading the spoilers made me decide to stay away). I don't see how it would even be particularly surprising within the context of the story.

I don't feel particularly good about a thread set up specifically to criticize one particular game, especially one that is a very earnest commercial effort, so hopefully some of those reviewers and other players who think the ending is amazing will show up to defend it.

Spoiler

At the very same moment, there's a knock at the door. It's the psychic infertility girl who was the love interest before betraying you. She leans over him, saying "Don't die!" and Jason, as his last act, kisses the girl, thereby also poisoning her. At this point I couldn't help laughing, it was just all too much. There is certainly a dark comedic element in the writing, but I think my grin was a bit too wide. THIS was the monumental surprise ending that a letter in the game box begged us not to reveal???

[close]

This bit is borrowed, with a twist, from...

Spoiler

Romeo and Juliet:

  JULIET
What's here? a cup, closed in my true love's hand?
Poison, I see, hath been his timeless end:
O churl! drunk all, and left no friendly drop
To help me after? I will kiss thy lips;
Haply some poison yet doth hang on them,
To make me die with a restorative.

[close]

And I thought it was pretty ridiculous there, too.

Spoiler

Oh, I forget to mention Jason's nicely self ironic line during the bad guy's plot exposition: "When we first entered this room, I thought you guys were going to shoot me. I no longer think so.  You see, my fear of being shot eventually took second place to the dread that you are going to bore me to death with a droning account of your ludicrous propaganda." - and then it goes on for another five minutes. Spare some poison?

[close]

Ugh! That writing is... not good. It's not even good English. That weird Len Green dude has been going around arguing with people who complain that the writing is sometimes awkward, demanding examples. Well, here's one for you, right here, Len!

[GarageGothic]

I don't feel particularly good about a thread set up specifically to criticize one particular game, especially one that is a very earnest commercial effort, so hopefully some of those reviewers and other players who think the ending is amazing will show up to defend it.

I agree, and I'm sorry if I put you off buying the game. I didn't mean to do any such thing. I've added a further disclaimer to my original post and some links to less vitriolic reviews. I also hope that other players, or Alkis himself, will step in and hopefully put the ending into proper context.

This bit is borrowed, with a twist, from...

I realize, and actually it's quite nicely implemented:

Spoiler

The fact that she's been poisoned is indicated very subtly in a well written piece of narration at the very very end. A great exit note for an otherwise problematic end sequence.

[close]

Ugh! That writing is... not good. It's not even good English. That weird Len Green dude has been going around arguing with people who complain that the writing is sometimes awkward, demanding examples. Well, here's one for you, right here, Len!

Yeah, I agree its not the finest piece of writing, but adventure games in general could use a lot of script doctoring. Except for the Blackwell games and, on the non-AGS side, the Sam & Max series, snappy dialogue is rare in the adventure genre. Everybody takes forever to convey the simplest of messages in the most unnatural phrasings thinkable (like so). I don't think Diamonds in the Rough is any worse than most current games.

I forgot to mention another thing, which in my opinion could have improved the ending:

Spoiler

With only one other gameplay task to perform before the talkative end sequence rolls, you cannot proceed before picking up the vial of poison. At this point of the story, you don't know the master plan yet and have no use for the poison. But you cannot trigger the final event without picking it up. Obviously you need to get it at some point, because the game is told in flashback, after Jason took the poison. But it certainly could be done in a less artifical manner. The player is bound NOT to want to pick it up knowing the outcome. Also, the game centers around choice, and how Jason has always chosen what others wanted him to chose, even though it may not be - as he says - the universally right choice. Ultimately he DOES make his own choice, what he feels is the right one, to tell his story to the outside world and to end his life. However, at this point the choice is out of the player's hands. We're watching a cutscene robbing us of the essential choice that is interactivity. Wouldn't it have been a much more powerful moment if you found yourself controlling a griefstricken Jason, nervously pacing his apartment with his proverbial back against the wall - and realizing that the only choice possible was to take the poison?

[close]

[SSH]

That's why I love Dave Gilbert's games: the characters' motivation for everything is clear.

[Vince Twelve]

Spoiler

Regarding the twist:  there is one quite powerful and effective moment that really worked for me.  When Jason is standing in the black and white dream and realizes that the numbers he's picking coincide with all the women who are black.  That sent a chill down my spine and instantly made me realize where the plot was going.

After that, however, and I've expressed this to Alkis in email, the writing and plot becomes completely overwrought.  First there's the line "They're all a bunch of neo-nazis!" which was slightly silly to begin with, since it was already clear ten minutes previously that we were dealing with a master-race evil plot, but made quite comical by the musical punctuation, which suggested a lot more grandiosity than the line managed to deliver.

Then, in the final cutscene, the lengthy mustache twirling exposition of the bad guy, spilling the beans on the entire plan is, as you have said, quite underwhelming and entirely overwritten.  I can't help but think that the small scale of the plot (only 100 infertile women?) stems from the author living in Greece, where 100 infertile black women would be a much larger representative percentile of the population.  (Heck, there were at least 500 black girls in my high school.)  Bumping that number up several orders of ten and eliminating the whole threatening the rest to leave the country thing would have been a lot more evil and interesting.  As it stands, you're right, other than the paranormal way in which they were going about it, their "evil" plan wouldn't even have made the evening news.

After reading the notes at the end about Alkis' research into racist groups, my thoughts on the ending softened a bit.   I could imagine that the completely ridiculous final speech made by Hungerton would be of the same kind of coherency and self-importance as you might read on a message board of that kind of community.  Still, I wouldn't expect Hungerton to be able to organize what he did without having the intelligence to see through his own crappy logic.

I didn't mind the fairly useless role that Jason was playing in the whole plot.  I thought it was interesting that the bad guys were using him to justify the whole thing.  He was choosing the right choice, and the right choice coincided with their beliefs, therefore their beliefs were right.  This is the same kind of circular logic that religions use to justify horrible acts, so I thought it worked well in that way.  The only stumble here was that somehow Hungerton, who seemed to understand Jason more than Jason, didn't know that Jason didn't choose the "right" choice but instead the choice that others wanted him to choose.  How did Jason know that, but the people studying him (and telling him what was going on) didn't?

And the deadly kiss with Sydelle, I believe, was purposefully a Romeo and Juliet reference, with the one twist that Jason said he "chose" a kiss.  I think that this was to mean that he was using his power, and therefore the choice he made was what Sydelle wanted.  She wanted to die for her actions.  Which I think was kind of neat if a little cheesy.

What I took away from the games ending, and what sticks in my mind the strongest, (I finished the game shortly after it came out, so some of it is foggy) is that scene in Sydelle's dream, which I still thought was quite well done.  If the rest of the ending had lived up to that moment (subtly shocking, rather than exposition exposition exposition) it would have been a fantastic ending.  As it stands, it still worked for me as the conclusion to an intriguing storyline that did keep me playing (and often utilizing a walkthrough) to find out what was going on in that twisted little town.

Regardless of how well the ending worked, I'm quite happy that Alkis tried to take on some taboo-ish subject matter (not that "racism=bad" is a particularly controversial standpoint) in a different way.

Perhaps if the ending weren't so hyped up, even before the release of the game, (Alkis' letter included with the game and it's warning about the amazing ending made it into every review that I read prior to playing) it would have satisfied more.

[close]

[alkis21]

Thank you for this thread, I like discussing the story of DITR. I have to go in a few minutes but I will be happy to answer your points/questions later tonight. While I do not disagree with some of the things you said, it seems to me that there are a number of things you missed or misunderstood.

To the people who haven't played the game: even if you have no intention of buying it, I still don't think you should read GarageGothic's spoiler. You never know, it might end up in your hands in the future as part of a collection or a cereal box or something. Any story's ending can sound ridiculous if you read it out of context without any idea about who the characters are and how they are developed. As Nikolas said in another forum, what would you think if someone described the Sixth Sense to you in this way:

Spoiler

A psychiatrist is treating a kid who thinks he sees dead people. It turns out it isn't his imagination, he actually sees them. And guess what? The doctor is dead too!

[close]

More tonight.

[Snarky]

Yes, I agree with Vince that it's great that you tackled a serious topic in the game. Although it doesn't sound exactly like my cup of tea, it's interesting to see games that incorporate deep research and real-world issues. (One of the many things that keeps me from ever completing a game is that I always get sidetracked into doing excessive research, like learning a foreign language or studying the religion of an extinct people.)

Don't worry about having dissuaded me from buying it, GarageGothic. I actually went to the site to get it just the other day, but the price put me off. So my decision was already more or less made. 20 EUR is more than 30 USD at the current exchange rate, and that's more than I'm prepared to pay even for most blockbuster titles (I generally wait a year or two until they come down in price). Maybe if the price is cut at some future date I'll pick it up.

I just swung by GameBoomers, and I see that you're feeling discouraged by all the various criticism and general whining, Alkis. I can understand that. It must be very demoralizing to spend years working on something that you're really proud of, only to have people tell you that you're doing it wrong or that they don't think it's all that good. I'm very impressed with the gracious and professional way you've been handling the pressure. Some of these external issues about how to sell it, using secure registration sites etc. shouldn't be taken as criticism, just as part of the learning process for a new online business. I hope you aren't put off from making any more commercial games, or free ones if that doesn't work out. You've started to build a track record now, and anything you do in the future will come with a built-in fan-base. You should also find it easier to recruit people to work with. Hopefully with the experience of DITR under your belt, next time won't be so rough. If it makes you feel better, you've done much better than the Al Emmo guys, and even the lukewarm reviews aren't that bad (the AG score is just slightly below the ones for the Blackwell games, for instance).

Yeah, I agree its not the finest piece of writing, but adventure games in general could use a lot of script doctoring. Except for the Blackwell games and, on the non-AGS side, the Sam & Max series, snappy dialogue is rare in the adventure genre. Everybody takes forever to convey the simplest of messages in the most unnatural phrasings thinkable (like so). I don't think Diamonds in the Rough is any worse than most current games.

Hmm, I wonder if there really are so few AGS games that exhibit excellence in writing. I seem to remember a number of titles with snappy dialog. Comedy titles more than serious games, probably, but still...

[GarageGothic]

Hmm, I wonder if there really are so few AGS games that exhibit excellence in writing. I seem to remember a number of titles with snappy dialog. Comedy titles more than serious games, probably, but still...

Yes, I spoke too quickly there. There are indeed many superbly written AGS games - the latest I played being RON: Au Naturel. I should have specified (but didn't realize myself at the time of writing) that my comment mainly referred to games with voice acting. Even well-written dialogue tends to feel very longwinded when you're waiting for it to be spoken out loud rather than clicking through at your own pace. Especially if the game doesn't let you skip dialogue lines by clicking, such as in The Lost Crown.
One reason for the overall poor writing is games is probably that most adventure games these days are developed in Europe (France, Germany, Russia, Czec Republic) in the local language and then translated to English. I've worked several years in games localization and know exactly how awkward otherwise well written original dialogue can become if translated verbatim. I am NOT saying this is the case for Diamonds in the Rough - according to Len Green (Snarky: can't blame the guy that the game is dedicated to for being defensive about it, btw) the English of the original text was near perfect, and overall the dialogue and narration does flow pretty well. I'm talking about games like Black Mirror (the horror...) or Legacy: Dark Shadows.

I have to go in a few minutes but I will be happy to answer your points/questions later tonight. While I do not disagree with some of the things you said, it seems to me that there are a number of things you missed or misunderstood.

Thanks, Alkis. I really look forward to that. I was sure there was something I'd missed or just didn't get, and that's part of the reason why I posted in the first place. So that people could set me straight. I actually considered PM'ing you instead of posting on the forum, to get the details clarified, but in the end I was also curious to hear the opinion of other players. I hope you realize that my criticism of this small part of your game doesn't reflect any personal grudge against you. I greatly respect your work, as I've mentioned countless times before I'm a huge fan of Other Worlds, and I'm very grateful for the review copy of Diamonds in the Rough that you sent me. I'm glad to hear that you're not offended by me posting ending spoilers on the forum - I would have removed them immediately had you asked me to. I'll look very much forward to read your comments on the matter.

Vince:

Spoiler

Yeah, that was a nice reveal, and one of the melodramatic moments in the game that actually touched me - but as you say, it does let some steam out of the final revelations. As for him kissing Sydelle because it's the choice she wanted - I didn't think of that, but it's a very good explanation and makes a lot of sense. It adds quite a bit to the scene and to her character, I think. I also agree that the main problem with the ending wasn't so much its content but rather the hype around it. As with any Shyamalan movie, an ending that everybody tells you not to reveal is bound to disappoint.

[close]

[Nikolas]

I don't know how appropriate is for me to speak... But since everything is out of the bag why not...

I have to say that the game is a bit confusing at parts. Regarding the story that is. It is true that you get a bunch of "heroes" with supernatural powers. Some silly, some better, some excellent and actually, the various paranormal powers seem more 'believeable' than the ones in Marvel, or TV, etc. You don't get people flying, etc, but you get someone who is able to choose the answer that the questionaire is looking for, etc.

Spoiler

BTW, Garagegothic, Jason is able to pick the 'right' answer in everything not just pick black and whites. Small micalculation there from you!

[close]

What I will stand by, is that the ending for me is the conclusion to a long line of events, after 2/3rds of the game. Personally after

Spoiler

Henry dies and the music turns

[close]

I find that this is a veeeery long ending. The suspisions that something is wrong with DITR are confirmed firmly and you have very straight guidelines on what you need to do!

The ending as a seperate clip in youtube does nothing. Nobody can feel it. The ending in words also does almost nothing. There's no visual and no audio (music and audio) to give the direction of Alkis. A movie in words is rubbish!

It is, certainly an interesting take on the nature of DITR and what it stands for! It also is brave on behalf of Alkis to tackle such an issue.

Of course, I was expecting demons, the devil, aliens, etc, but this actually suites me even better, because the whole game WAS in fact standing on the earth, and not floating in the clouds completely. If you had... Might and Magic or diablo ending like this it would be ridiculous, but not this game. At least in my opinion!

Vince: When you are obsessed with something you don't realise shit. No logic or nothing can turn you away. I've seen it happening to me, never mind someone dealing with something so strong. Never mind that it's something that to you and me seems silly and ridiculous! In fact, I'm pretty sure that there are people like this all around the world. Even scholars if you can believe it! (and I have proofs, but last time I quoted someone I was banned from Gameboomers! )

I can't really judge the language, but it didn't bother me at all.

Still, I do find that mentioning the ending, would kill the essence of the game, even if art and music and voice acting and dialogue writing is still there. So I do appreciate that Alkis asked to people not to mention the ending anywhere. And Len created a fabulous walkthrough to that, without any references to the ending actually (so kudos there).

Garagegothic: You can click through the dialogue in DITR...

snarky: Indeed, some people just feel like attacking various things that they know nothing about as well. That arse in Gameboomers is a bit too much for me as well... with the credit card issue, etc... What loads of rubbish. But I do find, as well, that Alkis is handling everything with great professionalism!

[GarageGothic]

I appreciate your comments, Nikolas. It's great to hear the thoughts of the people involved in the project, and I look forward to Alkis elaborating.

Spoiler

BTW, Garagegothic, Jason is able to pick the 'right' answer in everything not just pick black and whites. Small micalculation there from you! Wink

[close]

Spoiler

Oh, of course, but we know that from the very start of the game. It's what the organisation uses his talent for that is the big twist, so that's why I name that as his revealed skill. But I apologize if you think I made it sound sillier than it is.

[close]

Obviously there's a whole game leading up to the ending, most of which is fun and exciting (once you figure out how to change that damn lightbulb). Nevertheless, the ending IS more or less self contained. Up until that point the story could have gone in all kinds of directions, but the end cutscene really defines the overarcing plot of the game. It might as well have revealed that the organisation were a group of aliens using Jason's skills to win the lottery, and the rest of the game would remain pretty much the same, except maybe for a few cutscenes and some subtle hints on the nature of the beast here and there.

Garagegothic: You can click through the dialogue in DITR... Huh

I was using The Lost Crown as an example of the problem, not DITR. But maybe I wrote it in a confusing way.

[alkis21]

This is going to be a HUGE post.

OK here it goes... Let me start by stating that every criticism on DITR is welcome. It is not the negative criticism on DITR that puts me off, Snarky, I just have trouble coping with personal comments. It's hard not to be influenced when some people compare your business to the Nigeria scum or when they are wondering what your mother did to you when you were a child. So, I repeat: "Your game is crap" is acceptable. "You must be really stupid to release such a crap game" is not. Of course, I would have been understandably discouraged if the negative reviews/comments on the game outnumbered the positive ones, but luckily so far this is not the case.

I wrote the story of DITR because I wanted to give life to a complex plot, create something different and daring, and deal with an issue that hasn't been mentioned in any games I had ever played before. I knew that some of the decisions I made would cost me some buyers. If you write something more complex than the average "hero saves princess" of "the butler did it" story, you lose all the people who play it with the walkthrough on their lap and don't waste time paying attention or caring about the characters. If you don't finish your story with a "lived happily ever after" ending, you lose some more. And of course, if you deal with a controversial issue, you lose all those who like their games to be a relaxing experience. But I wanted to try all these things anyway. Because above all, I believe that the key to success when writing a game is to write something YOU would enjoy playing, rather than trying to guess what the public wants.

I was very worried about how people would react after playing my game. Would they understand which side of the fence of the controversial issue I was on? Would they laugh at me for actually writing an Afterword in the end, as if I'm a famous author and my fans were dying to read my thoughts? Would they get mad at the Greek who had the nerve to set this story in the US? Lucky for me, my fears were not confirmed.

Spoiler

GarageGothic

GarageGothic:Jason, the player character's, amazing talent turns out to be... telling black and white women apart! Not by seeing them with a bag over their head or looking at pictures of their clothed booties, but by picking random numbers from a list through paranormal means. I don't know, but this seems overly complicated. Assumably the people who put together the list would easily be able to verify the ethnicity of the members of the sample group? The logical fallacy is that Jason is picking what they already know - how is this helping anyone?

Alkis: I think this is the part you did not understand, and that's what probably ruined the plot for you. I could have explained it in more detail in the game, but I like to leave some things to the player's imagination rather than spell everything out. First of all, his talent is not telling black and white women apart, it's "always making the right choice", at least that is how they see it.

Try to picture this huge organization, with enough resources to do all the things they do in the game. There are many more people involved in it than the ones we see in the game. Obviously, as in every major organization, no major decision can be taken easily; you'll have to convince the people who pay the bills, not to mention the owner (it is NEVER implied that Hungerton owns DITR. In fact, aren't you wondering who he answers to? We aren't told). Now, imagine the first time they discover Sydelle's talent and realize that they can do anything they want from a remote distance without risking exposure. What was their first thought? I bet genocide fell on the table, but was probably dismissed by many of them as they like to kid themselves that they're not murderers, only "purists". Perhaps mass sterilization crossed their minds, but it was still too much. Then someone (maybe Hungerton, maybe Brown, perhaps someone we'll never even meet) thought of the idea terrorizing the public with a threat of mass sterilization. "Leave the country, of your women will never breed". That seemed a little bit more feasible to some... but they still weren't convinced. Maybe some of the "sponsors" were having second thoughts. Until they found Jason and decided to put their idea to test. The way they saw it, this man "always made the right choice". So if this was the right thing to do, he would select the black women without knowing... otherwise he would select random ones or none at all. Does it make more sense now?

GarageGothic:They then tell the chosen numbers to this girl who has the psychic ability to make the women sterile (I'm really not making this shit up) as a sort of poetic justice. Their plan is to make 100 women sterile in a year. They will then send psychic projections to all the news media in the country to tell them this (I guess it's more impressive than using UPS). They make the demands that all negroes must leave the country within a month, or they'll continue their efforts at a daily basis (what, 3-400 more sterile black women a year? I doubt that will even make a mark in the statistics).

Alkis: First of all, I'm surprised you think 100 is a small number to start with. For me, even ONE would be too many. Imagine having a sister and a wife of the right age. Would you risk it? Perhaps they chose that number because some of them (the "sponsors" who are on the fence I mentioned earlier) didn't REALLY want to make women sterile, they just wanted to scare black people enough to leave the country. Second, you're incorrectly assuming that "daily basis" means one woman per day. For all we know, it could be 1000 a day. It could be 10,000.

GarageGothic:But really, if they could convince the rest of America that Jason's list selection skills means that God or whoever wants an Aryan nation, then Uri Geller would be ruling the world.

Alkis: Would you be convinced? Would anyone? They didn't care about convincing people as obviously that is what they had been trying to do since DITR was founded and it simply wasn't fast enough for them.

GarageGothic:Anyhow, Jason asks for some time to think, goes home, connects to the internet through a stolen wireless modem and his boss' password (poor internet security that doesn't check MAC adresses in a town where contact to the outside world is forbidden) and tells his story in a webcast (bloody emo). He's taken a deadly poison, because he can't live with what he's done: "17... 17 women will never bear children... because of me! Because of me!". Nikolas' excellent score plays during all of this, and brings the melodrama up another notch. "Can you hear me! Can you see me!" he says, before losing consciousness...
At the very same moment, there's a knock at the door. It's the psychic infertility girl who was the love interest before betraying you. She leans over him, saying "Don't die!" and Jason, as his last act, kisses the girl, thereby also poisoning her. At this point I couldn't help laughing, it was just all too much. There is certainly a dark comedic element in the writing, but I think my grin was a bit too wide. THIS was the monumental surprise ending that a letter in the game box begged us not to reveal??? All this is followed by an Afterword written by Alkis, where he details his research of racist groups during development. This is very fascinating, but I'm just still sitting there thinking: "That was it? That's the most stupid Evil Plan(tm) I've ever heard. It wouldn't even sound credible in a James Bond movie!"

Alkis: Actually, Jason's last words are "I'm sorry for what I am". And it's not the actual ending I don't want people to reveal, it's DITR's purpose. I'm sorry it made you laugh, it is obvious that in your opinion the concept of the story is ridiculous. Others say it's brilliant. If you ask me, I don't believe it's either but I think it works in a science fiction sort of way.

GarageGothic:Even from a logistical point of view it just wouldn't work. Are you going to have that poor girl sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies all day? Aren't somebody going to locate you sooner or later? Even if the organisation is placed in the middle of nowhere, you can't build a whole town without leaving a paper trail - which any investigator looking into well-funded racist groups would pick up.

Alkis: How would they locate them? They obviously had the financial means to make it look like a legitimate organization. How exactly would a girl "sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies" be easily traced?

GarageGothic:At the end of the afterword, Alkis mentions that some people didn't like the ending. As I read it, some of the beta testers were unhappy that Jason died at the end.

Alkis: I never said anything about the beta testers. I was simply addressing everyone who would buy the game, knowing that some people would want Jason to survive.

GarageGothic:I didn't like the ending because it was plain stupid and all immersion in the melodrama just trickled out during those ten minutes of dialogue with each line more ridiculous than the previous. I'm sorry, but this somehow made M. Night Shyamalan's movies seem almost clever.

Alkis: The dialogs seemed too melodramatic because in my experience that is how these people talk, actually they are much worse in that aspect and I do believe I was very careful to avoid many  cliches. But honestly, the story is about a man who killed himself because he realized he was helping a neo-nazi organization sterilize women, surely the dramatic dialogs in the end are expected?

GarageGothic:With only one other gameplay task to perform before the talkative end sequence rolls, you cannot proceed before picking up the vial of poison. At this point of the story, you don't know the master plan yet and have no use for the poison. But you cannot trigger the final event without picking it up. Obviously you need to get it at some point, because the game is told in flashback, after Jason took the poison. But it certainly could be done in a less artifical manner. The player is bound NOT to want to pick it up knowing the outcome. Also, the game centers around choice, and how Jason has always chosen what others wanted him to chose, even though it may not be - as he says - the universally right choice. Ultimately he DOES make his own choice, what he feels is the right one, to tell his story to the outside world and to end his life. However, at this point the choice is out of the player's hands. We're watching a cutscene robbing us of the essential choice that is interactivity. Wouldn't it have been a much more powerful moment if you found yourself controlling a griefstricken Jason, nervously pacing his apartment with his proverbial back against the wall - and realizing that the only choice possible was to take the poison?

Alkis: I believe it was obvious that Jason needed proper training and stimulation to use his special ability. Otherwise, he would have never joined DITR in the first place.
Some games are made with chapters (like Other Worlds), and some are set in the same environment for the duration of the entire game. The non-linear nature of the latter sometimes forces the creator to make some moves compulsory for the story to go on, so that it's 100% certain that the player will not miss anything crucial. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about, this is after all an AGS forum and many people have much more experience in creating games than I do. The modem, the vial, the Yellow Phosphorus paper in Brown's computer are all part of this.

Vince Twelve:The only stumble here was that somehow Hungerton, who seemed to understand Jason more than Jason, didn't know that Jason didn't choose the "right" choice but instead the choice that others wanted him to choose.  How did Jason know that, but the people studying him (and telling him what was going on) didn't?[/b]

Alkis: Excellent question. I'm tempted to ask "Why do you think?" but I have learned that it pisses people off. I can offer two possible scenarios: Either Hungerton & Brown knew very well what Jason's special ability was but decided to use him to convince their superiors, or their blind obsession made them disregard that obvious fast and they decided to believe what they wanted to believe.

Vince Twelve:And the deadly kiss with Sydelle, I believe, was purposefully a Romeo and Juliet reference, with the one twist that Jason said he "chose" a kiss.  I think that this was to mean that he was using his power, and therefore the choice he made was what Sydelle wanted.  She wanted to die for her actions.  Which I think was kind of neat if a little cheesy.

Alkis: Again, very well put... And yes, it was a Shakespearean reference and yes it was rather ambitious and cheesy... but I sort of liked it.

Nikolas... This is the first time I hear from you that the game is confusing at parts and the ending is too long.

[close]

I hope I answered some of your points, I'm more than willing to continue the discussion if you have more comments.

[Nikolas]

Let me explain, Alkis!

Confusing at parts. Only because the game gives hints towards the paranormal which are not confirmed with the ending. That kind of confusing and nothing more! Exactly that. That it provoces the gamer to think about supernatural and big stuff, and yet the ending is very... earthly compaired to the imagination of the user. And as I said I find this very good (as opposed to any game floating around, etc, DITR is standing firmly on the earth).

Regarding the veeeeeeeeeery long ending! I said that I consider the whole last part of the game, the ending. From the minute the music switches. I don't mean the cutscene alone. If you take that into consideration, I'm talking about a 2 hour ending, of sorts, which is long... It was my personal take, that anyone picking up the game AFTER that set point where the music switches won't get the full meaning. For Vince it appears to be the B&W dream. For me earlier (as I said). I would even dare to say that the whole game is simply going towards the ending. It is one of these stories where everything is geared towards that ending.

Hope this is clear now!

[GarageGothic]

Thanks for the explanations, Alkis. I still disagree with several of your story choices, but I can see that you thought carefully about things and didn't just make it up as you went along.

Spoiler

Alkis: I think this is the part you did not understand, and that's what probably ruined the plot for you. [...] First of all, his talent is not telling black and white women apart, it's "always making the right choice", at least that is how they see it.

GG: Well, I actually did "get it". This is explained in the first five minutes of the game (don't remember when the part about him choosing what others want him to choose comes up, but it's definitely stated clearly during the end cutscene). However, what they USE his talent for, is essentially telling black and white women apart - and I emphasized that for the sake of, perhaps ill-placed, comedy, since my immediate reaction was to find it quite silly. I just don't buy the explanation that they'd tell the sponsors "Oh, so you aren't convinced by our finely crafted propaganda about racial degeneration? Well, we also have this guy who pulls numbers out of his ass. Satisfied? Great, let's get on with the ethnic cleansing then." I get the fact that they're a bunch of racist nutjobs who just want an excuse to go ahead with their master plan, but I don't find it credibly that people who put this much money and effort into scientific research would settle for such scant evidence. They don't even seem to be religious.  The only reasonable explanations would be, as you told Vince, that Hungerton knows the truth about Jason's talent but uses it to manipulate the people around him. If so, fair enough, but I still think that fanatics who are so willing to believe anything that supports their cause could come up with more solid arguments than paranormal phenomena.

Alkis: First of all, I'm surprised you think 100 is a small number to start with. For me, even ONE would be too many. Imagine having a sister and a wife of the right age. Would you risk it?

GG: Short answer, yes. Would you seriously leave the country that you were born and raised in just because some whackos threaten to make you sterile through paranormal means if you don't (with evidence to their claim so poor that James Randi wouldn't lift an eyebrow)? I think the Beltway sniper attacks caused more of a panic than this would. And again, would Sydelle even be able to do enough damage to cause more than a minor fluctuation in the fertility statistics? Without knowing the scope of her powers, I still think thousands a day sounds like a lot - the game seemed to suggest that psychic efforts take a lot of energy out of people. [edit: made a quick overhead calculation - she would have to sterilize 120 women a day to match the effect of chlamydia on black women's fertility!] What about the African-American men remaining in the country because you're only threatening women, by the way? Wouldn't this whole plan just lead to even more interracial breeding? And each and every one of them would be out there trying to track down your racist white ass.

Alkis: I'm sorry it made you laugh, it is obvious that in your opinion the concept of the story is ridiculous.

GG: But surely the final line about her "needing a glass of water" has an element of black humour in it? At least I thought it was a great punchline.

Alkis: How would they locate them? They obviously had the financial means to make it look like a legitimate organization. How exactly would a girl "sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies" be easily traced?

GG: As soon as a terrorist group - which is what they'd be considered after making their demands - becomes a threat, any means will be used to find it. In this case the FBI would start looking into white supremacy networks, they'll be searching for groups with funding, and unless the organisation has killed everyone they ever came into contact with, names will start to come up. Next thing, assuming they buy into the paranormal stuff, they'll make cross reference between those people and organisations researching psychic phenomena. There MUST be a few talented people that Hungerton has approached which turned down his proposal of being isolated in the middle of nowhere. Even with heavy money laundering and dummy corporations it just doesn't seem possible to build and run a privately owned town without leaving a trace.

Alkis: I never said anything about the beta testers. I was simply addressing everyone who would buy the game, knowing that some people would want Jason to survive.

GG: Ah, ok. I assumed you meant people who had already played the game. Still referring to the death of the player character rather than the plot revelation though.

Alkis: But honestly, the story is about a man who killed himself because he realized he was helping a neo-nazi organization sterilize women, surely the dramatic dialogs in the end are expected?

GG: Expected, yes. But in my mind, perhaps less melodramatic dialogue would have made the whole concept seem more credible?

Alkis: I believe it was obvious that Jason needed proper training and stimulation to use his special ability. Otherwise, he would have never joined DITR in the first place.

True. And I think the schizm between what Jason's "special abilities" makes him choose and what is actually the right thing to do is quite interesting. It's not much use theorizing what the game could have been, but playing around with this element could have made for some interesting gameplay as well as story control. What if, for instance, Jason could periodically watch the hypnotic animation that he recorded on his cellphone and would then know exactly what to do (such as picking up the poison). Except, as it turns out, it would actually have been what others wanted him to chose. It could be a nice mix of a built-in hint function and a story element, sort of like the stone in Wishbringer. In the end I just would have liked more choice in the hands of the player (not necessarily multiple choice, just choice) to reflect the theme of the game.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly comment my impressions of the ending. Especially your thoughts around Hungerton's motives/knowledge made me feel a little less antagonistic towards the plot.

[close]

[LimpingFish]

Like I said, I haven't played Alkis's game, so this comment (and the previous) should be taken as a more general observation on storytelling.

Less, in my opinon, is more. We don't need to have the villains motivation explained to us down to the last detail. We don't need, for instance, exact numbers...

Spoiler

...such as the exact number of woman the organization plans to sterilize, and how long it will take to do so. I'd also go as far as saying we didn't need to know the villains "justification" for his hatred summed up in such a way, as, in my mind, it dulls the horrific impact of his crime...

[close]

...as it may make the plot easier to take apart, and may turn a strong dramatic scene into a overwrought melodramatic one.

Of course, filling in plot holes is important, but everything doesn't need to be tied up neatly just for the sake of, well, neatness, and doing so in one area of the plot will make the absence of doing so in another area of the plot...

Spoiler

...in this case, the apparent ease of Jason's contact with the outside world...

[close]

...seem far more glaring.

[alkis21]

Spoiler

GG: Short answer, yes. Would you seriously leave the country that you were born and raised in just because some whackos threaten to make you sterile through paranormal means if you don't (with evidence to their claim so poor that James Randi wouldn't lift an eyebrow)?

Al: Actually, the evidence would supposedly be indisputable. The "apparitions" would convince anyone that the DITR people are capable of producing a paranormal weapon (that is why they were chosen as means of communication instead of UPS) and Brown clearly said that any physician would be able to confirm their claims as the list of the women would be made public.

GG: Without knowing the scope of her powers, I still think thousands a day sounds like a lot - the game seemed to suggest that psychic efforts take a lot of energy out of people.

Al: Not true. Quite the opposite really, it is clearly stated that "all Sydelle has to do is dream" and the game never suggests that it's draining in any way.

GG: But surely the final line about her "needing a glass of water" has an element of black humour in it? At least I thought it was a great punchline.

Al: Nope... It wasn't black humor. Think about it again: In the first cutscene, Jason's thought is 'thirst' and in the end he says "I'll be right back, I need a glass of water". In Dr. Brown's paper, it is written that thirst is one of the first symptoms. The phrase was added to point out that Sydelle was going to die.

GG: As soon as a terrorist group - which is what they'd be considered after making their demands - becomes a threat, any means will be used to find it. In this case the FBI would start looking into white supremacy networks, they'll be searching for groups with funding, and unless the organisation has killed everyone they ever came into contact with, names will start to come up. Next thing, assuming they buy into the paranormal stuff, they'll make cross reference between those people and organisations researching psychic phenomena. There MUST be a few talented people that Hungerton has approached which turned down his proposal of being isolated in the middle of nowhere. Even with heavy money laundering and dummy corporations it just doesn't seem possible to build and run a privately owned town without leaving a trace.

Al: Your main argument seems to be that DITR's idea was not a very good plan and that it would never work. So I ask you, what if it wasn't? I don't think it takes out anything from the game. The story is about people who are crazy-mad-racist enough to go with this plan, and a young man who helps them without knowing, and decides to kill himself in the end because his part in it has drained him of all his will power to even try to stop them. There's a reason why I made it a fantasy game; it's more symbolic than realistic and that is on purpose.

Big organizations don't always come up with great plans. Think about it: Microsoft's great idea of making billions of computers more secure was to add an "Are you sure you want to run this program?" dialog line in Vista. And that took them years to come up with. 

[close]

[GarageGothic]

Spoiler

Al:The "apparitions" would convince anyone that the DITR people are capable of producing a paranormal weapon.

GG: I don't follow the logic. If anything the apparitions just prove that they are able to somehow do astral projections. If I proved to you that I could bend spoons it wouldn't naturally follow that I could destroy the Golden Gate bridge with my powers.

Al: Brown clearly said that any physician would be able to confirm their claims as the list of the women would be made public.

GG: Yes, but after the fact. While it may be a big deal to the women, it doesn't prove anything than that you somehow managed to compile a list of infertile women without their awareness. Anybody who bribed gynecologists to report infertile women without telling them the diagnosis could compile such a list. If, on the other hand, you said you would make every wife of a congressman infertile over the next year, and then did it, THAT would be impressive.

Al: Not true. Quite the opposite really, it is clearly stated that "all Sydelle has to do is dream" and the game never suggests that it's draining in any way.

GG: Ok, maybe not. It's been a while since I played it, but I thought the dude who helps you enter Sydelle's dream said something about it being difficult, and the guy in the basement needs to gather strength before performing his apparitions. Perhaps nothing is mentioned about Sydelle, though, my bad.

Al: Nope... It wasn't black humor. [...] In Dr. Brown's paper, it is written that thirst is one of the first symptoms. The phrase was added to point out that Sydelle was going to die.

GG: Well, that's what I thought was funny about it. I guess I just have a dark sense of humor then.

Al: Big organizations don't always come up with great plans. Think about it: Microsoft's great idea of making billions of computers more secure was to add an "Are you sure you want to run this program?" dialog line in Vista. And that took them years to come up with. 

GG: That's really an end-all argument . Ok, you've convinced me, it all makes so much sense now.

[close]

[Snarky]

Spoiler

Al: Your main argument seems to be that DITR's idea was not a very good plan and that it would never work. So I ask you, what if it wasn't? I don't think it takes out anything from the game. The story is about people who are crazy-mad-racist enough to go with this plan, and a young man who helps them without knowing, and decides to kill himself in the end because his part in it has drained him of all his will power to even try to stop them. There's a reason why I made it a fantasy game; it's more symbolic than realistic and that is on purpose.

Big organizations don't always come up with great plans. Think about it: Microsoft's great idea of making billions of computers more secure was to add an "Are you sure you want to run this program?" dialog line in Vista. And that took them years to come up with. 

[close]

I'm very much in doubt about whether to post this, since I think criticism from someone who hasn't played the game is of dubious usefulness, but that last bit you wrote speaks directly to what I was thinking.

Reading the spoilers made me want to play the game less, because the story sounded pretty far-fetched and ridiculous. This is not just a matter of the specific plot twists, but also of the elements it consists of:

Spoiler

Personally, I'm not a great fan of secret organizations, grand conspiracies, or psychic powers. I think they're goofy. It's not that I automatically hate all stories that involve these things (I am a big fan of the Tex Murphy games, which generally hit all three bases, though I like them either in spite of the clichés or because the games revel in their ridiculousness), but learning that a game revolves around these things tends to make me less interested. Maybe it's because this sort of nonsense has done a lot to ruin many promising adventure games, from 6 Days a Sacrifice to Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy and Dreamfall.

Then learning that the game deals with a serious topic through this lens raises more warning flags for me. On the one hand, I would have a hard time taking what it has to say about racism seriously because of the (to my mind) ridiculous frame of the story, and on the other hand the seriousness means that it won't just be a good-natured romp with tongue firmly in cheek (like the National Treasure movies, say).

The more far-fetched, implausible, over-complicated, unpractical, and generally difficult-to-take-seriously the conspiracy plot is, the worse this dichotomy becomes. For example a plot to engineer a virus that attacks the genetic markers of black people could potentially be terrifying. The notion extends actual scientific ideas (medical treatments targeted to specific ethnic groups), it reflects existing fears and conspiracy theories (the idea that AIDS and the crack epidemic were created by the US government to wipe out black people or keep them in poverty), it's straightforward, and if it could be achieved it might actually achieve its objective, or at least cause massive panic and destruction. On the other hand, a plot that depends on magic powers, that is complex enough to require a flowchart, and which would almost certainly have negligible impact even if it went off without a hitch, is not particularly scary.

[close]

Well, that's my personal opinion. And it's not like you have any responsibility to make a game that caters to my specific interests and dislikes. I am curious about the way you decided to approach the underlying subject that you researched:

Spoiler

Since I haven't had a chance to read the afterword, maybe you can explain why you think a secret psychic conspiracy is an interesting way to explore the topic of racism. My initial feeling is that currently, at least in the US, the biggest problem is fairly subtle, everyday racism, from differential treatment to the (often unintentional) perpetuation of negative stereotypes, along with simmering ethnic/class-based resentments and occasional bigotry. Ideological hard racism, while it still exists (perhaps particularly in criminal sub-cultures like biker gangs and in prisons), is completely isolated from the mainstream, and does not seem to pose a serious threat to the fabric of society. There's anti-immigrant sentiment, admittedly, mostly directed towards Mexicans. But interracial relationships are becoming more and more common, and one of the people born out of such a relationship just won the Democratic nomination for the Presidency, so it's not the most obvious time to worry about hardcore racist conspiracies.

The situation is somewhat different in Europe, where there's a fairly continuous spectrum of political opinion from racism to "acceptable" xenophobic populism, and where anti-foreign parties or movements have occasionally been able to control the political agenda in countries like Denmark, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and Poland, among others. Still, racism is more likely to manifest in lack of institutional help for minorities, difficulties in finding jobs, and attempts to close borders, than in overt mistreatment. Maybe riots, if things get really bad.

I guess what I'm saying is that the DITR organization (from the brief descriptions given here) doesn't really seem to reflect the dangers of racism in the real world. Where there is real ethnic and sectarian hatred, people do much worse to each other (from the wars in former Yugoslavia, to Israel-Palestine, Shiites-Sunnis in Iraq, rebels vs. janjaweed paramilitaries in Sudan, Hutus-Tutsis in Rwanda and Eastern Congo, Sinhalese-Tamils in Sri Lanka, etc., etc., etc.).

There was a time when many "civilized" governments did things like your conspiracy to minorities: forced sterilization of gypsies in Norway and Sweden (among other countries), the forced removal of children from their families in Canada and Australia, and so on. I don't think that goes on any more, at least not in any of those places. Did you mean to allude to those past practices, or why else did you think it spoke to the subject of racism?

[close]

OK. While I was writing, this discussion seems to have finished. Don't feel like you need to respond, I don't want to perpetuate a negative argument.