Before we all start let me state the MS rule as I see it is an adjustable line from person to person, for me there is no such thing as a true Mary Sue, just bad writers and if there was such a character, key word being IF, there would only be one, ONE I say and only applied to textual pouching, er, fanfiction.
Ahem...
To start now, does the dreaded fanfiction phanomenon known as Mary Sue, also known as cardboard characters, the perfect complex, Superman (hey, I like him!), full apply to a medium that does not quiet follow the same general formula of a completely different medium. Read: Does the rule exist in a game world where the player is/controls the character instead of a written world where the reader does nothing but follow along?
Me, personally? I think it falls down to basically the creator/developer/writer who has the power to make ether a good game, and if the characters break a couple, or even all the writing rules, along the way then more power to them. Who in their right mind wants to play a game where the character was superficially flawed to the point of broken, runs endless fetch quests and the gameplay was busted beyond playablity? Not saying this a free pass to be utterly lazy on designing your characters, I'm just saying if it gets me out of three hours of mind numbing filler to explain this, that and that when it could be summed up in three or four words of "when I was a kid soup burned me, now I hate all soups."
PS. For good information about writing pick up anything by james patrick kelly, chuck palahniuk and the essays of Isaac Asimov.
I've never heard of the Mary Sue Rule, but having looked it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) it doesn't sound like anything to worry about. I'd be reluctant to accept literary wisdom from the world of Start Trek fan fiction...
I don't really see why, Ali? Isn't homemade AGS games pretty much the equivalent of fan fiction? Especially those that are actually fan-games of some established series (KQ, Monkey Island, Indiana Jones...)? And the term has crossed out of that community anyway (like "retcon" has expanded beyond comic book fandom), and you see it used by TV writers and critics, for example.
The Mary Sue "rule" is really just the observation that wish-fulfillment author surrogates is a very common way that amateur writers create ridiculous characters. It applies to adventure games in the sense that it's probably still true that players aren't necessarily going to find your super awesome, can-do-no-wrong, so-much-better-than-anyone-else character likable or interesting. Particularly if you insert him or her into an established series. If I created, with no sense of irony, a game where Indiana Jones meets his old colleague Dr. Snarkson, who turns out to be much smarter, braver etc. than Indy, saves his life, beats the Nazis, marries Sophia, becomes the Dean of Barnett College, and is liked and admired by everyone and resented by no one, I think people would find that pretty awful, even if they played as Dr. FantasyMe.
But that's the thing: I don't think the rule applies in that it's not really something amateur adventure game creators tend to do. Fan games almost always stick to the same player characters (the Herman Toothrot game is the only exception I can think of, and I doubt he's a Mary Sue), and in other games it seems much more common to use thinly veiled versions of existing characters than to insert their wish-fulfillment selves into the game. Maybe it's because adventure games aren't usually so focused on relationships or working as a team, so there's not so much scope for shoehorning in other characters' high opinions of a Mary Sue protagonist?
The games that do draw on personal details don't strike me as all that Mary Sue-y either. You named your protagonist after your girlfriend. Do you think that relates at all to this?
Well, a common (but hardly universal) trait of Mary Sues is that they always succeed at everything they do. This is not generally true for any computer game protagonist, because most players tend to fail numerous times before succeeding.
I must say I have problems relating this wish-fulfillment rule exclusively to badly-written, amateur productions. We have lots of famous characters like that, for example the aforementioned Superman, or Han Solo that the majority of male Star Wars public confesses to wishing to be like
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 20/06/2011 18:35:17
I don't really see why, Ali? Isn't homemade AGS games pretty much the equivalent of fan fiction?
Certainly! But just because we're working in an equally degenerate artform doesn't mean we shouldn't be aspiring to something higher. Gutter, stars and so forth.
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 20/06/2011 18:35:17
You named your protagonist after your girlfriend. Do you think that relates at all to this?
Yeah but unlike Mary Sue, Nelly
actually is super great and everybody loves her. You see?
Quote from: Ali on Mon 20/06/2011 22:19:24
Yeah but unlike Mary Sue, Nelly actually is super great and everybody loves her. You see?
Ah, so that's the main difference between Mary Sues and non-Mary-Sues?
There's nothing wrong with creating a character as a wish-fulfillment device. I'm guilty of doing this myself. Way back in the dark ages of 2003, I wrote a game about a laid-back surfer with a very sunny disposition, who was allergic to work and only cared about the next wave. I am nothing like this character. I live for the city and am not a huge fan of beaches. But at the time, I was working in a corporate cubicle factory, sitting under florescent lights all day, doing really boring corporate things. I was envisioning the prospect of spending the rest of my life like that and it was terrifying. So I came up with this character as a way to escape. I suppose the character could be considered a Mary Sue (a Marty Sue?) to a degree, taken in that context.
But I think what makes a wish-fulfillment character a Mary Sue is when the wish-fulfillment is so generic and boring that is ceases to be engaging to anybody but the creator. Just wanting to be liked by others and good at stuff is a good wish to have, but is that engaging? In terms of adventure games, I always felt that Brian Basco from Runaway fit this description. He was just so banally nice and pleasant. Everybody liked him. He magically had the knowledge to solve any situation he was in ("Oh no, I'm at the edge of a sheer cliff face. Good thing my uncle taught me how to rockclimb when I was a kid!"). Hot chicks fell in love with him for no reason other than he was the "hero." There were no major flaws to speak of, nothing to make him interesting. Admittedly, I haven't played the other games in the series but he was definitely a Marty Sue in the first installment.
Of course, by the same token, George Stobbard of Broken Sword fits the same description, but I still enjoy playing the games he is in because the writing is so good (disclaimer: I haven't played BS4). So as with anything, it boils down to the talent of the creator. Nothing is wrong with a wish-fulfillment character, as long as the character is interesting enough to others.
Yeah, my notion of a Mary Sue is that an important aspect of it is that the author as well as all (or most) of the other characters should be completely in love with this author surrogate, often even if he or she is actually kind of annoying or unpleasant (or just boringly bland). Runaway is a great example of that; actually all the Pendulo Studio games are. Igor in Objective Uikokahonia is a raging asshole presented as if he's this charming, witty Guybrush-style hero (though at least most other characters in the game seem appropriately hostile to him).
Wish-fulfillment is not by itself a bad thing. Tim Schafer said something about how video games are like a mech suit that lets you step into these really cool characters and do awesome things. (Wonder if that inspired him to create Costume Quest and Trenched?) Escapism and wish-fulfillment are a big part of the point. I think the issue is more that when the character becomes a vehicle for the creator's wish-fulfillment (rather than the wish-fulfillment offered for the audience to share in), it can easily blind you to glaring flaws in your work.
People rarely complain if a wish-fulfillment character is genuinely awesome yet believable within the context of the fiction (e.g. Han Solo). If your character gets called a Mary Sue, it means that your audience doesn't like her nearly as much as you do. It's maybe more useful as a diagnosis of "what went wrong" than as a criticism of the work.
Read through this test (http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm) and you'll see Mary Sue mostly refers to the shitty characters 13 year olds make up after watching their favourite TV show/reading their favourite book. I think most authors/game creators with half a brain don't need to worry about falling into the Mary Sue trap, as you will probably instinctively weed out most of the flaws on that test with pure logic.
If not, well... keep tryin' ;)
Quote from: Phemar on Tue 21/06/2011 19:03:50
Read through this test (http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm) and you'll see Mary Sue mostly refers to the shitty characters 13 year olds make up after watching their favourite TV show/reading their favourite book. I think most authors/game creators with half a brain don't need to worry about falling into the Mary Sue trap, as you will probably instinctively weed out most of the flaws on that test with pure logic.
If not, well... keep tryin' ;)
... Rosa Blackwell's score is -1.
Hmm... Nelly scores 22.
That test is definitely broken...
I got a 39. Somehow the test got half the reasons I chose some stuff for June, but they missed the real reasoning behind it and therefore I don't believe the test is very valid, nor do I like to create MS characters.
For my game, I got 16 for the femme fatale, 7 for Ollie (female protagonist) and...
-13 for Jakob. He don't have many things going for him, poor chap. In fact, most of the characters are pretty damn average. Wouldn't be much of an adventure game if they were the best battlers in the universe. If the characters could do things normally, they wouldn't be in a point and click, where you have to solve a number of puzzles just to do something mundane like climb over a fence.
I'd like to see how this "June" lady got 39, though. I thought most of the test questions were "Thing... without consequences". I've always seen that test as being a good benchmark for most characters.
But I base all of my characters on Ponch, and he is Batman!
Well, June is kind of like the female Sam Lowry.
Sam Lowry is a very respectable member of the society he lives in, his mother is famous and well respected, his boss loves him, his career is great, but...
I could answer all those with this test, but not the but... part.
Quote from: E304 on Tue 21/06/2011 23:46:22
But I base all of my characters on Ponch, and he is Batman!
Shh! I don't want anyone to find out! You think it's easy being a middle aged crime fighter? My knees are SHOT, man! I don't need people hassling me while I'm slathering my legs in Icy Hot at stately Wayne Manor! :=
I use that site as a good guideline for my original characters as Mary Sues are quite problematic. And, as has been said, there are examples out there and I definitely agree that Brian from Runaway would be an example and generally a lot of unpopular protagonists are.
THAT SAID... Mary Sues are difficult to define in gaming. They are wish-fulfillment characters, and video games are traditionally a wish-fulflilling medium.
If I was watching a TV show of Mass Effect the way I played it... I would really hate Shephard. He goes on EVERY mission. He kills ALL the bad guys. He does all the RIGHT things, but those JERKS in AUTHORITY give him crap and no support. BOTH the hot chicks are in love with him EVEN THOUGH he's a sarcastic jerk every time he wants to be.
But that's me, and that's the way I want to play the game, because I can't deny if I became a Spectre I would be a complete jerk to the Council whilst at the same time fulfilling my duties with integrity. Well... at least I'd WANT to. And that's what the game is about. Wish-fulfillment. That should be clear even from the rather nebulous role of the Spectres...
(I did try an experiment in a second play through of being a Jerk Shephard, who's obsequious and moralising when talking to authority but when the pressure's on in battle circumstances is a trigger-happy jerk... didn't get far enough to see people calling me on rampant hypocrisy though, lol)