It seems that things have come a fair distance in the AGS community. It seems that lots of people are forming teams to create bigger and better projects.
Already AGSers have offered to pay others money for their services, such as animators, composers and background artists.
In your opinion, is this a good thing or a bad thing?
On one hand, people are more willing to do a great job on what it is they're doing if there is payment involved. The end result is a higher quality game and better gaming experience.
On the other hand, does payment for services mean that soon there will be payment required to download AGS games?
Will this make AGS too commercialized and take game creation away from those who just want to make games for the pure enjoyment of it?
These questions are lofting through my mind as I am considering making myself fully available for just doing soundtracks for games here. I would basically be opening a music and sound business for AGS games, and yes that would mean payment is required.
But would it be the right thing to do? Would I help or harm the community? Who would pay cash for their game's soundtrack? Teams creating full-length adventures? Newbies plunging into the AGS world thinking they're making the greatest game of all time? Or nobody? No matter what, I want to get more seriously involved in the world of music. But I don't want to use this community as a stepping stone if it will cause bad results.
I see two possabilities. Either, not having much effect at all, or, it could get to the point where some people will not work with others unless paid, and therefor, it might be difficult for others to get a bigger project together because of expectations. If everyone is expecting to get paid for their work, the broke people who just want to make fun games and work with fun people may feel left in the cold if no one will work with them.
I say, unless you plan on making a commercial game, the resources should remain free. If, on the other hand, you are planning on making a commercial game, then you should be paid only if the game gets bought by a publisher.
My take.
Personally, I'm semi-paying scotch to help me with coding work. (Semi as in I've sort of paid him, but as yet have nothing to code). It's not so I can make a commercial game. It's so I can make a game I'd enjoy playing. If paying someone to help me would increase the enjoyment, then I'm happy to part with the money.
Most people, I'm sure, would help the others out for free, so I can't see them refusing to work with out being paid. They're more likely to refuse because of lack of time or, more often than not, because they don't know the newer people (ie, "Hi, I'm new. I'm putting together a team.."). Remember, too, that people offer to pay the others, not the others demanding payment.
The people who charge for services, also have to put a lot more of an effort in than the casual helpers. Most people don't have the time to do that often, and it's highly unlikely that they'd make much money in the first place.
As far as I can tell, the whole payment thing is a pretty good idea, because the makers who have a real passion for their ideas will be the only ones willing to fork over their money. The people who have that passion are also more likely to make a good game. The hired workers would help to make that a great game.
Currently, I know of no more than perhaps 5 AGS games that require payment, in fact, I can't even think of 5. Only one, and that's Fatman, and even that's free now. I believe there will always be a huge ratio of free AGS games to commercial AGS games. It's a proven fact that it takes a lot of effort to create a game of commercial quality, and it's also proven that people aren't so stupid as to download a crappy game being sold for profit.
People find AGS all the time and many strive to make a game simply for themselves and post it up if they decide too. I'm sure 50% of AGS users never show themselves on the forums (Helm's famous lurker post proved that, and that was only 2 or 3 years into AGS).
I don't think Chris will ever charge for AGS, and he has no reason too. He's doing it as a hobby. I'd love to support CJ in other ways for his efforts though, for example, an AGS cafe-press shop would be kind of neat! With AGS t-shirts and boxed editions of AGS for $$$ :D
QuoteThese questions are lofting through my mind as I am considering making myself fully available for just doing soundtracks for games here.
For money? Not a chance :P You have to wait for people to ask with those kind of things usually. AGS is a very niche community, and not a lot of people want to pay. It's only when they get desperate that they'll flash their wallet. Plus "help for $$$" threads are really very rare here.
QuoteI would basically be opening a music and sound business for AGS games, and yes that would mean payment is required
That is even MORE niche, and I really doubt you'll make much. I don't mean that offensivly but there just isn't a call for it, certainly not today. Perhaps in 5-10 years there will be... You also have to remember there are hundreds of musicians here now that will happilly to it for free. And something else thats noteable is that developers often have a particular musician in mind (Helm uses Ghormak, Rodey uses me, etc). Perhaps you should consider your diversity and start a music/sound company for
computer games of all kinds, rather than just AGS?
QuoteWould I help or harm the community?
Neither I'd imagine, because of the above (very few clients!)
If you want to enter the world of music, make music, don't think about money.
:)
I meant in the hypothetical future sense where the community has mutated into one where most people won't give up their time without some form of payment. It was merely hypothetical, and I'm more apt to believe my former not much will happen thing, instead.
I don't know if I'd pay someone for a game unless I wanted to make it commercially viable. I suppose there's always building a resume of work to present to someone, a demoreel, per say... but I'm still leary about it. I can see myself working for long periods of time on something that may never come to fruitation if I believe in it, but actually paying someone to help me on a project that has no return?
And if you want to make money with music, you might try the film business. Look for ambitious Independent films, score for them for free so that when they go to Sundance or whatever, you have a chance to go with them and talk to bigwigs. You're probably more likely to make money then...
To each, their own, obviously, and I do hope your game looks and plays great. How far along is it?
"there just isn't a call for it, certainly not today."
For individual's games, no there isn't a call. I'm thinking of large scale, full-length projects.
As far as what I was considering, I was thinking I would be overshooting the needs of most AGS games. I would be using the Yamaha TYROS, which for anything less than a full-length game, would be overkill.
well, there are of course both pros and cons. As you said, if money is involved people will be more, how should i say... motivated. But cons are, of course, what if a lot more AGS games become commercial? The horror. The Horror!
I'm thinking of large scale, full-length projects.
But again there's still not a lot of those... Sure there's a lot of large scale indie point & clicks going, but not really with AGS..
Quote from: m0ds on Thu 11/08/2005 01:47:39
I believe there will always be a huge ratio of free AGS games to commercial AGS games. It's a proven fact that it takes a lot of effort to create a game of commercial quality, and it's also proven that people aren't so stupid as to download a crappy game being sold for profit.
Precisely. I can only think of three commercial AGS games, whereas there are over 300 free ones on the Games page. There will always been a huge ratio in favour of free games, simply because most people here are doing it as a hobby and not as a full-time occupation.
Also, making a commercial game is a big risk financially. You have to pay your artist, musician, etc upfront, and hope that you sell enough copies to make you a profit. And you also have to make sure that the game quality is top-notch, or it will get slammed by reviews and nobody will buy it.
There's plenty of room for both commercial and free games and I don't see it causing any problems at all.
Quote from: m0ds on Thu 11/08/2005 01:47:39
Currently, I know of no more than perhaps 5 AGS games that require payment, in fact, I can't even think of 5. Only one, and that's Fatman, and even that's free now.
Most recently there has been Hauntings of Mystery Manor (http://mysterymanor.net/HauntingsOfMysteryManor.htm)
But you're right; commercial games created with AGS are far and between. I still see them as a positive trend, though; it shows that both AGS and the game designers are getting sophisticated enough to hope for a payoff. I'd hate to see AGS becoming commercial, but seeing one or two commercial games created with AGS every year would give it a whole new level of credibility, and may increase the demand for free AGS games at the end.
I've often thought of dishing out some dosh when it comes to the graphical side of things, but then realise that I don;t have the resources to pay anyone what I belive would be a deserving price, or even any price. Graphically I can just about swindle a background, but when it comes to characters and animations I am lost, more lost than a polar bear in the jungle.
Payment is a nice option for some of those out there, but I think the ebst thing to do when making games is to trade. E.g, I don't have much talent in any specific area, but I personally believe I have competent web-design skills. So I may trade a character or a piece of music for a website. Or even just generally helping someone out by beta testing, critiquing or even offering my ideas when someone is thinking of puzzles etc...
As far as money goes I think it's only a wise option if the person is planning on making it commercial and being able to make the money back.
I can think of three money making games at the moment using AGS - Fatman, 5 Days a Stranger and a fairly recent one featuring the wonderful default AGS gui's, which turned me off instantly.
It's naive to believe that the price for a game is some kind of measurement for if the game is any good. Profesional artists can draw good, and whether they get money for it or not has nothing to do with their skills.
If you're a REAL man(/woman), you make a profesional game for free. I dare you.
ps: Sorry, but I dont have time to read all the messages.
Quote from: jetxl on Fri 12/08/2005 19:06:25
Profesional artists can draw good, and whether they get money for it or not has nothing to do with their skills.
Of course this is true, but keep in mind that in order to become professional you have to spent at least 4 (without any Postgraduate studies) in a univesity (in most cases). I'm not saying that a professional cannot be self taught, but it's sure as hell difficult.
And when you spend so much time AND MONEY into that, you expect sometimes that what you're doing will give you something back. But I guess that the happiness in helping others, or creating what you like is all the reward I need.
On the other hand when I proffessionalize (when I turn into that freaky persons called proffessionals), it will be rather difficult to donate my music to wherever I like. I don't know if any proffessional artist will make for free the Project Of His Life...???