Fundamental Adventure Laws?

[Seleceus]

Anyone read 21 Adventure Tips by Bill Tiller and Larry Ahern? Link:

Actually, yes, I have, and found it very good too.  As a matter of fact; it was one of the unspecified articles I was referring to, in my earlier post (even dropped a link in for good measure). 

[Afflict]

Anyone read 21 Adventure Tips by Bill Tiller and Larry Ahern? Link:

Actually, yes, I have, and found it very good too.Ã,  As a matter of fact; it was one of the unspecified articles I was referring to, in my earlier post (even dropped a link in for good measure).Ã, 

Yes thanks for that article Seleceus. That was a really great document can keep on refering back to the site for more
articles. Really good one thanks.

[stuh505]

Yes, those were some great tips.  Thanks for the link, Erwin.

[jetxl]

A Bill of Player's Rights. (12-16-2000)
http://www.lysator.liu.se/mud/questdesign.html

It's focused on Interactive Fiction, but can also be adapted for point n' click adventures.

[InCreator]

To add something, I'd recommend to keep game in closed sections, each with reasonable size.
Read:

sections > total of: rooms player could visit at the game moment + hotspots+dialogs+inventory items to try

reasonable size > Usually, not all is solved by logical thinking. If you shoot player into a section with 10 rooms, give him 10 items and each room has at least 10 possible hotspots where any of them could be the key element to solve the section, whole thing is freaking huge and possibilty to just "wander" onto right solution is very unlikely. Also, the try-everything-on-everything action is insanely difficult to do.

Which - leads sooner or later to using a walkthrough
Which - ends the game for player, since walkthroughs are like Pandora's box: If you use it once for a particular game, you use it every time you get a bit more stuck. And this not cool at all. Also, the statisfaction after completing a game is minimal. Which makes whole game experience suck.

So, don't flood player with endless options, separate game into 2-5 room sections, with reasonable amount of options and you've made a big step towards making an enjoyable game.

And of course, this section-thing could be nicely masked with storyline, so player wouldn't even figure out why he can't get here or there until finishing this or that.

Good examples: Indiana Jones and FOA, Goblins 1-3, Larry Vales games
Bad examples: Razors in the night, Pleurghburg, Sierra's King's Quest series

[Afflict]

Thats very interesting. Never thought of it like that. Know i have some thinking to do.
Indiana jones FOA is an amazing game. One question however anybody had any problems with the fighting. I did find it enjoyable but the novelty wears off after a couple of borring fights.

Never the less everything else in that hand was great.

However i would like 2 know more about full throttle! The one that got away! Could never get my hands on it. Not even now. If someone can help of out with some screen shots and novel ideas that where used in the game. Only screen shots i get on net are the opening scene. And the title screen.

[Crowley]

Fate of Atlantis had the sucker punch which you could use to end nearly all fights immediately, with the cost of Indy Quotient points.

[En garde!]

About deaths in Adventure Games... I really prefer not to die, I personally kinda like to inmerse myself on the game, and diying and ressurecting allt he time throws you away from th sense of reality.

Anyway, if you REALLY have to make deathscenes, make sure that at least they are avoidable if the player has done its homework. EXAMPLE:

You've broken into the museum, in the middle of the night, it's dark but the moonlight allows you to see the dagger of Amon-Ra, you grab it and leave... but a giant cockroach demon suddenly appears and corners you against a wall... the creature slowly approaches you... THINK!

If you have made your homework and went for a chat with the old anticuarian, you will know that demons are afraid of the light. Before grabbing the dagger you took a look around the museum and saw a fusible box. You even tried to use it, but your character said that he/she didn't wanted to draw attention to people outside...

So, yeah, previous knowledge and attention pay off: you use the fusible box on the seconds you still have before the demon gets you, the lights are on, the demon runs away.

That would be a satisfactory death scene. If you are smart enough and pay attention to the game you are rewarded.

Now a bad death would be when it's completely random, when you have to resort to trial and error without previous information to speak of. That is pretty annoying.

[Afflict]

En garde you are right inthis aspect the player will always have an effect over his death and a way to avoid it.
If he fails then he dies... simple. The option should still be available to a player that hasnt done homework?

[Erwin_Br]

Sierra games often featured unfair deaths. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a big Sierra fan. That, and dead ends. In some Sierra games it's fun to die, though

--Erwin

[MillsJROSS]

Deaths are kind of a strange area in adventure games. No one really likes to die, unless their out for funny deaths. But, at the same time, I feel better after I've died several times, and finally accomplish my goal. It seems like I've accomplished more than just random clicking. Personally, I love Sierra deaths, I think they add a charm to the game. I don't necessarily see that they made that many unfair deaths. They did make walking-deaths, which considering the size of early games, is debatably not such a bad idea. However, in the context of the lenght of games today, walking-deaths I don't think work so well. Also, many of their deaths DID make sense. If a monster/bad guy was chasing you and caught you, you died. Where as CMI, as Lechuck chased you in the end, there was no way for death. I think as of late, people are afraid to allow death, and I don't necessarily agree with it. Trial and error deaths, aren't necessarily bad, it depends on the tone of the game. In SQ there are several unpredictable deaths, but I found many of the deaths enjoyably funny. And if you don't like to die, save often. I usually have a save the game often, and if you get an unpredictable death, you die. And while yes we wouldn't do stupid things like that in the real world, but if we were concerned with the real world, we wouldn't be playing a fictional story.

As far as making things in reasonable sections, I completely agree with that. I believe Roberta Williams refered to it as a pearl neckless. Although, I think she stressed that this was a bad technique. To me this is ideal, because you don't overwhelm the player. A lot of times where there are tons of rooms, the player loses sight of what they are even trying to do, as there are many puzzles to solve. As stated, most people will reach for the walkthrough after a while. 

To me dialog makes or breaks the game. I'm the type of player who goes through all the dialog options made available. The characters are the story, I can't understand skipping dialog that can potentially help you out in a puzzle or flesh the plot out. That isn't to say that some adventure games aren't long-winded. Dialogs should be interesting and should only be used to either give the player a hint, flesh out story, or humor. The game Five Magic Amulets is a good example of bad dialog. There were many cases where the character needed to know everyone's life story, and it got boring and served no purpose. It fleshed out the characters, yes, but that can be done in subtler ways through dialog that IS import and germane to the game.

-MillsJROSS

[En garde!]

The game Five Magic Amulets is a good example of bad dialog. There were many cases where the character needed to know everyone's life story, and it got boring and served no purpose. It fleshed out the characters, yes, but that can be done in subtler ways through dialog that IS import and germane to the game.

-MillsJROSS

Frankly, eventhough "5 magic amulets" is a great game that I recommend to everyone (and, hey, you can't beat the price, it's free), it is a pity that includes some of my biggest pet peeves. I don't really mind pointless dialogs. I really enjoyed the so- often- criticized ones on "The longest Journey". Difference here is that April had a lot of personality, just like all the other characters, and it created a rich complex world. Unfortunately, on "5 magic amulets" the main character was really plain and boring: her adoptive mother had just disappeared, the world was on the verge of impending doom and she acted like she was having a nice stroll on the woods a summer morning.

Another problem I had with the game is that you just start with... what? fifteen screens  with 5 to 10 hotspots each and ten inventory items? The possibilities are too overwhelming. I'm betting a big numberof players quits the game or goes for a walkthrough  at this point (I know I did). If you have to use a large map, please:

Not at the beggining. Seriously. Start with a small map with one or two clear puzzles. Make the player get used to the game's universe and controls. And if you have bigger maps then, please, be sure that the puzzles are not too obscure that there is a clear path to follow if you use logic. In "5ma", for example, you have to do a lot of unrelated sidequests in order to create a reaction on the game (a new character appearing, for example) that has no relationship whatsoever with what you were doing. Not that you know why you were doing it in the first place.

Let me explain that all that above is not reallly a rant against "5ma", just an opinion on how it could have been even better.