This is in no way an original idea, but I've given it some extra thought lately, so read my proposal and tell me what you think. All in all, it's pretty similar to the producer-idea that was brought up not long ago. But I've tried to define it a bit, and put it in some context.
Basically I came up with it after having discussed RON with Dave Gilbert over a pizza, some month ago. The great thing with RON (and Dave) is that to get included in the RON-circle, your game has to acquire the community's seal of approval.
You can't call your game a RON-game if you haven't undergone a certain procedure.
It's not just the case that the RON-board rejects all ideas that won't fit; mostly they encourage the authors to alter certain bits of their plot/graphics to the better, with lots of help and feedback.
It's like the critics lounge, only in the critics lounge, nobody really follows up whether the person in question actually adheres to the c&c given, and most importantly; in any way, they can still publish their games in the "finished games"-forum.
The AGS-community produces a lot of games nowadays. Unless you want to go with the popular opinion, there's no easy way to find out whether the game is worth playing or not. If the plot develops halfway through the game into something really thought-provoking and ingenious, people might not give it a try due to bad graphics. Etc.
We have certain game "companies" already. Screen 7 hosts a plentitude of projects, Monkeygames as well.
But what do they actually do? They collect the developers and hand out logotypes. They don't focus on specific genres, they don't have criteria or standards, and I don't think they even try the games before publication.
This will be a bit like production companies, only the guilds won't do much more than provide feedback, and in the end, a seal of approval. The game will afterwards be included in said guild's game "catalogue" if you will.
The feedback itself will - in contrast to the AGS critics lounge, or the games in production forum - be private, which will lead to more "tailored" c&c, and it also won't spoil the game for potential players.
Some advantages in short:
1. The guilds will guarantee that their games hold a certain quality. If a player tried one of their games and liked it, they will probably like the others as well.
2. Guilds can specify genres and styles, to suit certain target audiences.
3. Guilds will give personal and extensive c&c, and can be as restrictive and harsh as they please, in order to fit their standards.
4. Guilds will gradually grow and gain recognition, giving their games invaluable promotion. A famous guild's seal of approval will be a precious feat, and will be a great incitement to create better games.
5. Guilds can build up their own stocks of backgrounds, sprites and music, without worrying that someone takes it without deserving it.
6. Games that generally don't appeal to the masses, like art-house games or graphically "impaired" games, will stand a greater chance of hitting.
7. In the end, guilds can turn professional, and finance projects in order to put it on the market. They can compile collections of their games for cheap prices, etc. This is rather hypothetical, so don't get all heated up about this money-thingie :)
Hopefully, this will lead to more and better games, simply. I reckon that three quarters of all started projects, fail because of lack of feedback and proper incitement. A developer who is a part of a guild, might feel more committed and encouraged to finish their project.
Hmmm....I dunno. One of the things I really like about the AGS community, what set it above most other web communities, is that it's pretty classless. From AGS vet to newcomer, from expert to rank amateur, everyone can contribute and join, and unless you really piss people off, you are generally treated well and given great advice and input.
Guilds just seem to add an unneccesary layer of complexity.
So the guilds would be some kind of sponsors, like when you know the difference when you buy Adidas or Armani, DC shoes or reebok,etc.
Well, ofcourse i'm for the idea, and i think it is great, but changes take time, and people, and this would really be a serious project. But when it gets going, you'll know that it really is the thang, and you won't be able to pass by it, or even choose games.
So commercialising independent uncommercial adventure games. It was inevitable.
:=
It's a pretty interesting idea, Andail, but I think it's a hard one to execute. MonkeyGames is really more like a club where we just get together and help out each other wenever we can... the games are still developed in a one man operation, mostly because it is hard to control other people's work. I'm alway offering Grundislav to help out with Ben Jordan, but he likes doing his own thing... I even try to impose quality control issues before release, but last time Ben Jordan 2 was released under my nose.
Andail, it's a very interesting idea indeed, it seems you've put a lot of thought into it. But wouldn't you consider it better to have just ONE guild?
There's only one BBFC that decides what ratings go on movies, and it's better that way. Twenty different BBFC's and one could put a film as PG to get it sold and another call it a 12 because they're honest... Y'know?
The other problem I think you face with "guilds" rather than A "guild" is that - would many people really want to put time and effort into induvidual guilds? And what if one guild is working exceedingly well that everyone just decides to submit their games to them, etc...
It's an interesting idea, but here are a couple of potential questions/pitfalls:
1) who is a part of the guild? anyone? or will there be some kind of ranking system like all this elite-crew-veteran stuff?
2) people seem to come and go in the AGS community. some of you have certainly be around for a long time, but how can we ensure the longevity, and quality assurance, of the guild with porous membership? Not that i'm saying we shouldn't try, it's just a question.
3) what kind of organizational structure should be used? I think that would be key. we would have to come up with various responsibilities, and then delegate those responsibilities (preferably democratically). Perhaps this would help lead to the organization's longevity...if people had actual responsibilities and were invested in it, they would more likely stick around.
The more i think about it, the more I like it. If it were done right, it could be helpful in a lot of different ways...and could possibly be fun.
-Logan
well. we could make it based on location,like the GAC, or even the ill-fated Australian AGS'ers. Really, anyone that plans on doing this for (basically) a living, should be the leaders. people that would really care for the well-being of the games. On the other hand, anyone can start their own guild, and just build up your own reputation. I'm all for multiple sponsors/publishers as well....
Perhaps it could be more like a more organised version of critics forums? Like everyone who plays a newly released game fills in some sort of rating/comments form. Then the guild brings together all this information, and decides whether to give it a stamp of approval based on it. Something like that perhaps?
I guess my main concern is that if everybody were just encouraged to start their own guild, it could just be a free-for-all, diluting the actual effect of having them in the first place.Ã, What I mean is, that if I were looking for a guild to be a part of, or seek approval/praise from, I'd want to be sure that its members/leaders were talented, knowledgable AGS/adventure game veterans.Ã,Â
As it is, it seems like everyone has their own production company, even if just for kicks, and I don't personally don't know the difference between any of them...except for maybe Intoxicated Bunny and Gaspop which i think made Pleurbuerg...but both seem to have departed from the community...which brings me back to my initial point...is that people seem to come and go.Ã, So how do we ensure that these guilds become a long-term thing?
I think maybe we could set a certain number of guildlines for a guild to be formally recognized by the AGS community.Ã, Just off the top of my head, here are some suggestions:
1) the guild should have some kind of statement of purpose.Ã, nothing extravagant, but a reason for being that separates it from other guilds.
2) a certain number of founding members, that are willing to take a stake in it.
3) some kind of long-term goals, like how they'll actually reach out to the community, or even better, how they plan to HELP or ADD to the community.
Just some ideas.
-Logan
P.S., Pelican, doesn't the AGS site have a rating system for games already?Ã, I think the guilds would/should do more than that.Ã, No?
well, even if everyone and their brother started a guild, it would show soon in time the validity of the guilds that survive, by those in charge making sure that they care and see it through.
Yeah, you're right. It's like what you said, you have to build up a reputation.
Here's another thing. How can you help foster new talent, without shunning people for lack of talent...i.e., what if someone is starting out and tries to become a part of the guild, or an apprentice, or whatever the structure is...and is rejected because their graphics aren't up to par, or their story...is there potential for interpersonal conflict ::) Would that even be a bad thing? I just wouldn't want to create some kind of class system, as James Kay said.
I think it's a great idea Andail!
it'skind of what I was aiming at with setting up a team, to make more quality games, and have a seal of approval and such things.
only thing I'm scared of is that everyone will start setting up guilds of their own and we end up with a billion guilds that never really know what they're doing!
but I really think that this concept good benefit the community!
JOIN The Makers (http://the-makers.tripod.com/). We alow EVERYBODY.
Current members: 0
Current weirdo's : 2
Think of it as some sort of talent-scouting.
Like those reality tv-shows, which have auditions for potential performers, and help them making a career. As lame as that kind of entertainment may be, the fact remains that hundreds of good performers would remain unseen around the world without it.
It could also be viewed as some sort of training ground.
Anyhow, it's all about making people giving all they've got. To bring out all their potential.
I don't know, if I get some time over, I might consider starting a project like this.
Eeek, guilds are going to cause a lot of un-neccessary competition, surely?
This doesn't really seem all that necessary to me.
Well, what is necessary?
I'm quite proud of the teams that actually made games during the "ags team challenge" competition. I'm pretty convinced that they wouldn't have made those games if there hadn't been a competition running.
Some people need incitement. Some creators will remain uncreative until somebody brings out their potential.
Is it necessary? No.
In any case, I will sooner or later commence a new ATC competition. I hope people will be inspired by the progress made by Dart, Dave & co in "two of a kind". I hope plenty of people will see it as a chance to show us what they've got.
Talking about ATC... some people might be wondering what happened to 'The Hamlet'. The game is probably something like 99.5% done (maybe even more!), and then our scripter went missing. So if anyone knows where Redwall is, tell him to go to 'Creative minds' forum right now!
Well Andail, just in case your idea is the next big thing... :D
Before we get a billion guilds - I'm all up for setting up a guild called
point&classic, ANARCHO makes a good point that people come and go - and though I have no intention of going (or coming, right now) I'd be happy to get it rolling and let other people manage and/or look after it. Setting the guilds properties is somewhat harder, because it depends who you want to encompass and who not...
QuoteHow can you help foster new talent, without shunning people for lack of talent...i.e., what if someone is starting out and tries to become a part of the guild, or an apprentice, or whatever the structure is...and is rejected
Simple, to be a part of
point&classic you must be willing to help others within the guild. That doesn't necessarily doing someones backgrounds, but it does mean having an ACTIVE presence and commenting, constructivley criticising peoples work within the guild, big-upping each other too :D
I'm open to suggestions before I start making any kind of "rules". I'll whip up a web-page once there are some suggestions/ground rules in place. I only into to lead this if no-one else does.. :P
Initially, I'd like to invite people into this guild but I'm not one for excluding anyone, I think it will be down to guild members to look at game pitches/ideas (which can be submitted by anyone) and it would work on the basis as how promising the game sounds. That might be a crap way of doing it though so any suggestions blatently welcome :D
I'm all for this idea... As long as I get to be part of a guild!
Mods, I think we're beginning to reach eachother half way now.
But in order for this to work the way I intended, two conditions must be added:
1. The guild must be exclusive.
The primary reason ATC failed for some teams was that many members were far from competent to do their duties. It may seem harsh to reject people, but remember that one "quitter" can ruin a project for an entire team (which isn't fair to the truly dedicated members), and also, the application is completely optional. If you know you can't handle such a rejection, don't go there.
It's not all gonna be about skills; the main purpose with the guild would be to help people develop their skills. I'm convinced that all people who get in, will learn a great deal about being part of game projects. The selection process will also be about committment.
2. The guild most, consequently, be for members only. I don't want a lot of nosy people running in and out the forums.
Again; people don't have to apply. People can start their own guilds. People can just forget about the whole thing. If they want to be in the one I'm talking about, yes, they will have to go through some sort of application process.
I would gladly see you host the first guild, but if you want me in there, these will be the conditions. As a supervisor of a project like this, I intend to invest a huge amount of time and energy in making these games progress as smoothly and quickly as possible. I won't waste my time on half-assed attempts.
If you're still up for it, whip up a messsage board and PM me the address, and we'll start work out the details.
Again; I'd love you to do this, Mods, but I rather do it myself than start compromising the core outlines :)
I truly understand how having a team is a tremendous help when making a game (after working alone on one title for three years), but I don't really think that "let's make guilds!" should be presented as something everyone should do. It's not a thing that should be anounced on the forums as a general trend - you want to start a team/guild just do it, it's not like you need anybody's approval, n'est-ce pas?
This said, I'd love to work with some more people (especially artists, as this is the skill I'm most lacking) on future projects... as long as there's place for my nifty Terminus Games intro somewhere in the beginning...
Andail, I think your conditions are perfectly just, it makes sense to run it maturely and under mature rules like that. I'll get a forum set up asap and PM you the details.
stop talking and go get to it you crazy creative blokes!!!
KEEP CREATING YAY!!!
wow this is real cool, all around people want more games with better quality! I've got the feeling 2005 is gonna be a good year!
Quote from: Andail on Fri 24/09/2004 16:07:05
Think of it as some sort of talent-scouting.
Like those reality tv-shows, which have auditions for potential performers, and help them making a career. As lame as that kind of entertainment may be, the fact remains that hundreds of good performers would remain unseen around the world without it.
Now this sounds interesting. As you say, talent scouting type shows can be rather lame, but generally they are beneficial to the participants and the public. Also, the fact that graphically "impaired" games, or games that don't excell in other areas, such as a game with a concpet that seems dull, but the story evolves into something intriguing and emotional, or the puzzles are brilliant, etc, can get a lot more recognition than usual. Some people are good at PR (I myself find it sometimes more enjoyable to write little snippets of PR text rather than actual game related text :P), but I'm sure some games could really be enjoyed by a much larger audience if they are presented well to the public. Do you think such advice can or should be provided in the guild as well?
Naturally, a seal of approval, or a mark of quality, with the build up of past reputation, can contribute greatly to the success of a game. Speaking of QA, didn't m0ds suggest some kind of beta testers guild some time ago? Where beta testers would be "trained" and then there would be great feedback that can improve games? This could be a nice optional part of guild services, perhaps.
So, what I basically want to say is, sounds like a good idea to me!
P.s. FruitTree, are you thinking of somehow merging this with your own project? With Andail's and m0ds' approval of course. Or do you still want to keep that as a seperate 'guild'? Personally I'm not entirely against multiple guilds, I just agree with m0ds that one guild is enough, if it's a quality assurance/rating guild, but if it's more about producing/publishing and helping/ctriquing, then it'd be nice to have several of these "companies".
In any case, I'm pretty sure many will still hang on to their own "production company", as it's just fun ;).
edit: As FruitTree just pointed out to me on irc, his project is more about forming a team for quality game making than supporting individuals making games.
A cool thing would be if it would happen.
Let's say after 2-3 years the guilds represent the top of the top of the games made, and everyone is working their best to be a part of them, and the lines are very long, someone comes with a uber-cool game and everyone and every title on the zines would be A MIRACLE FROM OUTSIDE OF THE GUILD....
Hmmmm, I think I did one of my only-Czar-can-understand-it posts.
Did anyone actually read and understood my point up here?
My point exactly.
I better stop before i start repeating myself.
Dibbs on the 'Angry Scotsman Guild'! where me and my Scottish bretheren shall plot the downfall of you all BWAHAH-- I mean colaborate for some kick ass games!
I think it would be a pretty good idea, allowing for a kind of localised critics/production crew, and it would probably ease tension in asking people for help on projects.
No, I'm against having a guild per location. Firstly, that limits anyone who wants to be in a guild to just one guild, from his own country. Also, there are many countries with too few representatives to form a guild.
I'll countinue when I get back from school...
Quote from: Mephistophilis on Sun 26/09/2004 22:47:09
Dibbs on the 'Angry Scotsman Guild'! where me and my Scottish bretheren shall plot the downfall of you all BWAHAH-- I mean colaborate for some kick ass games!
I think it would be a pretty good idea, allowing for a kind of localised critics/production crew, and it would probably ease tension in asking people for help on projects.
Not to mention that there doesn't seem to be an uber-artist amongst our scots, so we'd be a bit lacking there.
I don't know about anybody else but i would really like to start an AGS film company. Making small films using the ags engine would rock.
Regards,
Alec
Eh... That does seem to be a slight downfall in my plan... doesn't matter I was joking anyway... honest!
Edit: I hereby Declar these people honorary Scots whether they like it or not:
Darth Mandarb
Pixelcat
Miez
Pumaman
Rodekill
feel free to move to Scotland when you want.... anyone?
Can I become an honorary Scottsman? Before you answer, see my post at the thread with members' photos at general discussion - page 26 for original me ;)
As to the guild - a good plan for those who want to make a team of few people for games development. But consider one thing - do not allow it to seal you off from the community! Don't allow the guild to be more important than a real person who is not from your team.
I think the idea just assembles a team which will make their own games... It'd be good if the guild wouldn't be hermetical but also provide others with advice.
I think a good idea would be guilds that would take their time also to help others - test their games, give them advice, take concern of their projects if authors want the guilders' help.
My general idea: let guild be a place where people can go and find someone who thinks their projects are good and is willing to help them. And if the author comes for that advice and follows it - making something really worthy - than he gets the guild's seal of approval and indicates in credits that he got help from the specific guild.
<---- Thats a "scott"
A "Scottsman" as you call it, is me, a scott-man. A Scotsman is what I believe you are trying to say. ;)
Yeah, and isn't it meant to be SCUMbudd- oh wait I get the joke, heh
Quote from: Andail on Sat 25/09/2004 03:47:10
In any case, I will sooner or later commence a new ATC competition. I hope people will be inspired by the progress made by Dart, Dave & co in "two of a kind". I hope plenty of people will see it as a chance to show us what they've got.
Sorry, I came to this thread quite late.Ã, It is interesting that you bring up the ATC, as it was such an amazing experience for myself and for the other members of the team.Ã,Â
While the ATC was on, we were all majorly jazzed.Ã, We were excited.Ã, We were determined.Ã, We were GOING to make that deadline, come hell or high water.Ã, As the deadline approached, our enthusiasm increased.Ã, I'm sure I can speak for the entire team when I say "it frigging consumed us."Ã, I wrote dialog every chance I could get.Ã, The artists kept sending me their work faster than I could incorporate it into AGS.Ã, The day before the deadline, we were up all nightÃ, communicating via IRC and working like mad to finish.Ã, It became less about winning and more about just going the distance.Ã, And we did it.Ã, The game was missing a lot of dialog, it had quite a number of bugs, and a bunch of corners had been cut, but we frigging did it.Ã, The game could be played from beginning to end and we squeaked it in just before the deadline.
If the experience taught me anything, is that a team-built game CAN work, and work very well.Ã, With the ATC, our team complemented each other perfectly.Ã, I know that my personal strength is writing.Ã, My scripting is so-so and I can't draw or compose my way out of a paper bag.Ã, My team had a fantastic coder, three great artists and a very talented musician.Ã, It was OK that I couldn't draw or compose, because the other team members made up for it.Ã, I was incredibly lucky, and I thank whatever random chance of probability that threw us together.Ã, I could not have done it without any of them.
That would be my ideal of a perfect "guild", or team. A group made up of dedicated individuals of different skill sets who can come together and make something great.
Incidentally, you might be wondering... if the game was so close to completion, where's the bloody game?Ã, Well, it's interesting.Ã, Without the deadline to spur us on, we had much less motivation to work.Ã, Self-imposed deadlines are completely ineffective, as there is nothing at stake.Ã, We ARE seeing the light at the end of the tunnel though.Ã, All the major bugs have been squashed and we are just fine-tuning.Ã, I think we need another deadline, Andail. :-)
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 07/10/2004 17:33:39
I think we need another deadline, Andail. :-)
hm...right...tomorrow?
Seriously though...the next chance to repeat what Dave & Co experienced will soon come, in the next ATC+ :)
(The plus is for one extra month.)
(Pretty nifty, huh?)
If I start the application process any day now, the teams could be ready to start November first. That would make the deadline in the beginning of January. To avoid disturbing the celebration of Jesus and the new year and whatnot, we could set it somewhere around the 7:th of January.
Look out in the activity and competition forum for more information in the near future.
My few cents before I'm cut off the net for the weekend:
I like the idea of guilds, but I don't think it should be like actual "guilds", rather some kind of quality tag classes, like one of these "guilds" could represent Pleurghburg-style gameplay, graphics, puzzle, etc. whatever you can think of. If we'd set up a webpage that first of all notifies and clearly states that these are actually not groups where people need to gain acces throught tests. Only that if their game meets the standards of the guild, the game will get the tag and be rated bo the guild "administrators", so it would be found on the site, and could be found by the players, and it would have a rating in the guild scale. All guilds should be listed on one site, so people can go through the list to look for a guild that tags games of their liking.