RoN/OSD in MAGS

[Atelier]

I've been asked a few times now whether RoN or OSD resources are allowed to be used in MAGS entries.

At the moment, the only components which can be pre-made are audio, templates, and modules, and they must be available to the public (assume this to mean public domain). As community series, I don't see why RoN and OSD graphics shouldn't also be allowed, if everybody has an equal opportunity to access them. I'm not aware of anybody using such resources in a standard MAGS competition (but we once had a 10th Anniversary RoN round when it was allowed). If somebody did, I can't imagine anybody taking reasonable exception to it, but it'd be nice to clear up the issue.

If the rules are changed I can imagine the entrant would need to (a) use resources from an official repository and (b) make it known they used these resources. I know of the RoN repository but am not sure if one exists for OSD.

Please share your thoughts.

[Retro Wolf]

I'd like to see more RON games, and perhaps allowing use of RON graphics would stimulate the RON community again. But this would also remove some of the challenge behind the competition.

[Radiant]

"Available to the public" is something very different from "public domain"! In fact, almost none of the audio, templates, and modules available to MAGS users are public domain.

I think the problem with using RON resources is that games using those are expected to be in the RON canon, which gives them a whole lengthy backstory and so forth, which is clearly not new work for that month's contest. It is arguably not a fair contest if we're comparing a wholly-new-from-scratch game to a game relying on extensive third-party worldbuilding and backstory.

And frankly? I'm not an artist myself, but I have participated in several MAGS games and have never had issues finding somebody to help out with the art for a game. So I'm not sure if the problem you're trying to solve here is really all that pressing.

[Atelier]

I didn't realise the source code for each OSD game was available, otherwise I wouldn't even have included it in this thread's title!

If the games were using RoN graphics I think people would take that into account when voting. It was just an idea to get more people involved because we can't all get help with artwork, and I have been asked several times about this now. However I considered it properly and am tending to agree now- my problem is that I rush things too much. But it's still open for discussion I guess!

[Snarky]

Speaking as a MAGS non-entrant, in general I think people should be allowed to use any resources they want, as long as it's freely available under an open license (or public domain) and clearly credited. That includes graphics, animations, audio and code modules; OSD by default, and I guess the RON resources. It's not like making an adventure game isn't a ton of work already, and making use of stuff that's available is only sensible.

One obvious example would be using photos or existing Google Sketchup models to lay out a scene, and then painting over it (to a greater or lesser extent).

[Ponch]

I'm for it. But I want to see more RON and OSD games and I'll take 'em any way I can get 'em. 

[KBlaney]

Not a MAGS participant yet but I will once I'm more comfortable with AGS...

RoN could always be a MAGS theme. That could certainly jumpstart RoN participation as Wolf is suggesting.

[Atelier]

Hm, in my mind it's a tough one to balance, because I can see how it may seem unfair, and defeat the purpose of making a brand new game.

But if everybody has an equal opportunity to access the same freely available stuff, whatever it is, surely it's at the author's discretion not to take advantage of that, and therefore it cannot be called an unfair comparison?

Also, as it stands, we have a rather prescriptive list of what can and cannot be used. Music, templates, and modules are fine; but certainly not art. It probably is harder to make music and to code, but not for everybody, and not every member is able to get help making graphics. So how can you justify making an exception just for graphics, without being subjective?

The main reason people drop out of MAGS is obviously because it's too much work to do in a month, so if we made the rules more open to allow pre-made material I really think we'd get more people finishing, and more people starting to begin with. The premise of this thread was about RoN/OSD, but I think Snarky made some interesting points towards making it more open than that.

I mean, is the purpose of MAGS to make an entirely new game, or simply to make a game? Officially, it's both, but to most people, the latter is why they enter. When people make games outside of the competition, they have access to all public domain, open license, etc stuff anyway.

And seeing as there is no prize available for MAGS, I think we can afford to be less restrictive with the "pre-existing" rule if it means more people get involved.

BUT

I don't think we should allow use of entire game sources (i.e. OSD). You are essentially beginning the month with 27 games ready-made. There's a clear difference between making or pulling together the components of a game yourself, and reverse engineering a game that's already been made, to make it your own.

I'm also just supposing that more people, especially newcomers, would join if the rules were less 'stifling'. I have no idea if that would really be the case but it would be interesting to see.

Another concern I would have is that the quality of MAGS games would decrease if people weren't relying on material made by themselves. For me, I most enjoy seeing what people have come up with at the end of each month on their own initiative. Taking away some of the challenge behind creating everything from the ground up might make it seem less 'special' when you're playing the end result. At what prevalence of people using pre-made material would that be ruined?

[Retro Wolf]

.....have never had issues finding somebody to help out with the art for a game.

Is having someone help you with the art any different than using pre-existing art?
What if I drew a ton of sprites a year ago and never used them until now for MAGS?
Any one of these reduces the workload for the competition entrant.

Would it seem less special using existing graphics? If the end result is an enjoyable experience, it wouldn't bother me!

Personally I'm leaning towards allowing the use of pre-made graphics and sound, but I can see the arguments against as well.

[Radiant]

Is having someone help you with the art any different than using pre-existing art?

Yes, because you are allowed to team up for MAGS games.

[DarkWater]

Maybe it's just me, but the way the rules stand now, the contest seems slanted towards artists.

"Music and sound is an exception; you can use free material that is available to the public, if you wish. Modules and templates are also allowed."

So if you can't program, then you can take advantage of any templates/modules available. But if you're not an artist, then you're just plain out of luck. At least that's the way it seems to me?

Someone in the thread mentioned that it's not fair because of the back-story from RoN. But a game made with RoN resources, would still have a fresh storyline to it. So based on that line of thought, it follows that anyone making a game for this months contest "Sidekicks", couldn't use for example "Sherlock Holmes and Watson"(since their pic up in the thread) or any other known duo, because they already have a back story.

Now I can see problem with allowing the use of OSD recourses, since they not only contain graphics but the complete source code for the game. But then again, couldn't someone say they just used that as a "Template" for their game. Then wouldn't it fit into the rules?

[Snarky]

I don't think we should allow use of entire game sources (i.e. OSD). You are essentially beginning the month with 27 games ready-made. There's a clear difference between making or pulling together the components of a game yourself, and reverse engineering a game that's already been made, to make it your own.

I think if someone just swapped out the graphics, dialog and music of an OSD game, they'd have to come up with something quite amazing in order to win. Adventure games aren't like FPSs or RTS games, you can't really "mod" them that way. Just doesn't strike me as something to be seriously concerned about.

And let's say someone took the "Might Pirate" project source, copied the room three time over, changed out the graphics and music, edited the walkable areas and hotspots, added exits, renamed items and characters, edited the puzzle structure and rewrote the player character responses and conversations... What's the problem? The only thing left would be the basic interface, and the original game would just have been used as a demonstration of how to implement standard adventure game features.

What if I drew a ton of sprites a year ago and never used them until now for MAGS?
Any one of these reduces the workload for the competition entrant.

Unless you'd already made those sprites available as a free resource, I think that's a definite no, since it would give you an unfair head start. Otherwise someone who's been working on a game for a year that just happens to fit that month's topic could submit it, and it wouldn't really be MAGS.

[Atelier]

I think if someone just swapped out the graphics, dialog and music of an OSD game, they'd have to come up with something quite amazing in order to win.

True The only OSD game I've played is The Wet Spot - and I don't know what shape the sources are in - but I guess it's just the principle of starting the month with a game already set up by somebody else, rather than creating the files yourself. Well personally, I wouldn't want to use sources for my entries because it would never feel like 'my' game. Granted others would though, particularly people who've just found AGS, and they are the ones we could do with joining MAGS. If people had to credit the resources they used anyway (not hiding the fact they've used source code), yeah it might not be a problem.

[Ponch]

The only OSD game I've played is The Wet Spot

And that's only because I made you play it. 

Instead of making MAGS open source all the time, why not just make the open source game RoN/OSD contest an annual event like OROW?

Yearly Open Source Adventure Game Studio Event? aka "YOSAGSE"?

Say it with me: Yo-Sags-Ee. Why, it just rolls off the tongue, don't you agree?