http://www.adventuregamers.com/display.php?id=297
I tend to agree with adventure gamers a lot on their reviews, but i have to disagree with this one. Yes, i may be biased as an AGSer but Fatman was the best commercial adventure game for a while IMO, and my little cousin (4) didnt know the difference between it and a 'proper' commercial game so :P
Obviously the bit where they say "One of the things that I absolutely loved was the full MIDI soundtrack by Mark Lovegrove." is the the bit where most people would disagree the most...
;)
j/k!
I'm a dedicated Adventure Gamers visitor, and a regular poster on their forums, but I actually disagree with a LOT of their reviews. I think the main reason for this is that their staff has such a revolving-door manner of operation (not that this is deliberate), and their reviewers run the gamut from classic adventur gamers (like most of us here at AGS), to MYST-fanatics, to "new-age" adventure gamers (ones into all the stuff by The Adventure Company and so forth) who have never even played the classics. As a result, their reviews can be VERY inconsistent, especially if you look at their star ratings, but even if you read the reviews objectively. They can have some pretty questionable reviews.
Anyway, their Fatman review was another I don't particularly agree with, and even though the review wasn't that positive, I still think two stars was too low even for that particular review. This reviewer also gave Beavis and Butthead four stars, and I'm sure that isn't a bad game, but it strikes me as a bit odd to be giving it four if you're giving Fatman 2...
We must also realise that this is the price for going professional; reviews that aren't as pleasant as the ones we write for eachother here on the forum.
If you look at any magazine, or site, thousands of costly and professional games will recieve both good and bad reviews. Our games shouldn't be spared sharp criticism just because we're hobbyists and decent, hardworking fellows.
This is reality.
I totally agree Andail, but I still think that parts of the review were unfair. I'm not saying AG should have given it a perfect or near-perfect score, but I really don't think the reviewer properly justified his review.
Is it me or does is "I wanted to like this game—I really did." just a game reviewers cliche? I hear it all the time.
I think it was a little unfair. Ten years ago and I bet Fatman would have gone down a treat.
m0ds
I wonder how much his distaste for the voice acting dragged down the final score? I've seen varied reactions to the voice acting on adventure game forums (from people who hated it, to people who thought it was the best part of the game), but that is the most negative reaction to it I've ever come across. I think to state that 'I turned off the voice support, and I think that most gamers will do the same' was a bit extreme (and out of touch).
Also, I think his criticism of the humour was a bit off. If he's going to complain about low-brow humour, he should give the readers more examples of it than a single 'solve the puzzle by farting' joke.
But hey, I think Fatman coming from AGS has created a reviewing precedent: the critic assesses the game, and then the community assesses the critic. :p
I don't mind the review, however harsh it may be. The only part I had a problem with was when he wrote that "the characters are reminiscent of the Reality on the Norm series." Is that meant to be insulting? The reviewer repeats often that Fatman is trying to be a commercial release, so why does he insist on comparing it to amateur adventures?
Well...I only played the demo (Shut up! I'm poor!) but I didn't particuarly like the voice acting, it could have been a little more melodramtic to match the cheesy, cartoon style of the game.
But that's still no reason to give the game such a low score, to give it less than three sort of gives a negative impression while I'm certain that Fatman is not a 'bad' game.
I really should buy it..
/me Starts saving
Well part of a reviews is personnal taste, we have to live with it. We also have to point out that reviews that we're used to on the AGS site are sometimes more positive than normal. I've only downloaded games here that were rated 8/10 and up, and to my opinion, some of them don't deserve that high.
I assume that people are a little bit like me and feel that reviewing something they liked is more worthy of their time than criticizing a game that they were too bored or frustrated to see througth.
LOL Vel, stop using a different ID.
:P
Mods beat me to it............LOL
It's bemusing that he describes it as trying to be "supercommercial".
The exorbidant pricetags surely indicates he's doing more than something in a old shareware style spirit (without the sharing, but I hope you understand).
i can agree with a lot of the review but i can also disagree with a lot
again, mostly in the fact that he didn't explain himself, like Dave Gilbert said, is that supposed to be insulting that the art looks like a RON game, or is he drawing a parellel that the characters look like edited versions of each other and are usually standing straight and awkwardly in a room? or is he saying that RON art is ugly and so is Fatman art?
and mods, i don't understand why ten years ago should apply to today
Quote from: Wattshout on Wed 15/10/2003 18:46:30
Well part of a reviews is personnal taste, we have to live with it. We also have to point out that reviews that we're used to on the AGS site are sometimes more positive than normal. I've only downloaded games here that were rated 8/10 and up, and to my opinion, some of them don't deserve that high.
I don't know what you can mean?
http://www.agsforums.com/games.php?action=detail&id=267
(no doubt the 10/10 mark will change soon :'( )
Quoteand mods, i don't understand why ten years ago should apply to today
Because a good idea 10 years ago is a good idea today? Not strictly my oppinion but such a view could be argued for. Sure the technical aspects of the game seem aged (compared to the recent Doom3 toilet publicity screenshots! ZING!) but the storytelling concept of an adventure game hasn't advanced so much in the last 10 years that an idea as old wouldn't work in a game made today. Think longest journey, what did it do that couldn't be done or wouldn't be considered just as good 10 years ago, and vice versa what did Gabriel Knight do (again, in terms of storyline and gameplay devices) that would be considered unplayably dated today?
I'm not saying the rules of modern industry don't (or shouldn't) nec. apply to Fatman, I'm just saying that as a storytelling medium, ten-years-ago point and clickers don't differ from today's so much.
My point is that ten years ago Fatman's graphics would have been the height of adventure game graphics (or certainly among them!) - in no way am I saying that now they're not, because they are great graphics for an adventure game - if not my favourite kind of graphics (long live 320x200) - what I mostly meant was, 10 years (ish) ago 3D wasn't revolutionised, and first person adventure games with pre-rendered 3D backgrounds were still in their mother's wombs.
m0ds
We, AGSers, will always rate people's games as amateur, as that is what they are. I think what they may have done is tried to compare it far too much to a commercial game, despite it being amateur.
All I can say is that our opinions are different to most people's as we have the added 1337 value :D
Ionias, ignore those people, it's our opinions that matter, right?
I haven't played Fatman Adventures, and I don't know if anyone here was involved with it, apart from m0ds, but...
1. It's $14.95. That makes it commercial, so commercial standards apply.
2. Calling a game Fatman seems very uninspired.
3. The artwork is blatantly MUCH WORSE than commercial Lucasarts and Sierra games from ten years ago. Just look at
http://www.socko-entertainment.com/screenshots.htm
Sorry if I offended anyone here - but that's the harsh reality of it.
If it was free, I'd play it for sure. But if I'm going to pay for a game, it needs to have the whole package - good plot, good script, good editing, good sound, good art.
Steve
But the thing is - it has all of those things, and the fact that by spending that money you get free delivery. For that price you'd be paying double, if not triple, for an off the shelf game.
I think that it is well worth the money, and am glad I helped support amateur adventure games like Mike.
sth
If you want to compare like with like, then Fatman should be compared to games with a similar level of graphical ability: I think it is fair to say that at least it is in the same ballpark as some of the "Classic" games that m0ds listed. Maybe you don't liek a cartoon style, but then plenty of those classic games had a similar cartoon style.
However, I can buy these games on ebay pretty cheap (if I'm not after signed limited editions like Rodekill) or even in shops in some cases (GF, S&M, DOTT) for cheaper or around the same price as this.
I would say that it is probably overpriced
I would say that Fatman is hardly the best character name ever thought of
The graphics look pretty good to me, but are not state-of-the-art
A lot of hard work must have gone in to it, but the above things are still true
And m0ds, are you seriously trying to argue that if you didn't like Fatman you wouldn't like DOTT, FoA, etc. Not everybody has the same taste!
Congrats to the guy behind Fatman for pioneering the commercial use of AGS and for his hard work. That doesn't mean that it couldn't do with some improvement!
Oh, and M0ds: go and try out III Spy. I think that will show you how much gaming experience Steve has.
sth p2
Like I said, if it was free, I'd play it.
I certainly appreciate the work that went into it.
I just don't think you can say that the graphical style justifies the graphical quality.
Oh, and I've finished DotT, Loom, FoA. Those had style and quality. (Somehow I missed out on the Sierra games first time around.) And I haven't played Myst.
I'm really looking forward to FoY!
SSH: As for III Spy, it doesn't have much graphical quality, but then again, it's free.
Cheers,
Steve
PS "The Adventures of Henry Smythe"... I like the sound of that :)
I look at it from another way:
I think it's an honour that Fatman Adventures got reviewed as being a commercial poduct. Why do 'amateur' adventures need to be reviewed at a different scale? Aren't amateur adventures good enough to be compared with professional games?
I mean, it *is* a commercial game so I would find it denigratory if my game would be labelled as 'amateur'. Amateur sounds a bit negative to me, as in 'not as good as professional'. I've seen many freeware 'amateur' projects which deserve a much better label then that and are way better than a so-called professional game.
The good thing about this review is that it raises the bar and might stimulate independent developers to develop even better games, to try harder. I'm not sure if Socko! is going to develop more games (I hope so) but I'm sure these games will be even better!
The voiceacting wasn't so bad, btw. Maybe some voices didn't fit the characters, but I've heard MUCH worse acting in other commercial games.
Personally I would've given this game 3 stars, or 2 and a half.
--Erwin
OUCH! That was a harsh review.
But I'll tell you the truth I expected every review to be as harsh as this one. I'm just not that proud of Fatman as a commercial product. Don't get me wrong I put my heart and soul into this game (as did everyone who helped) and I'm very proud of it ... just not as a commercial product. Somehow I feel dirty? I think he's right as a "free-ware" product it would have been met with open arms. You just can't argue with FREE! :)
Now ... I've made back the cash I invested into this game, and I want to make Fatman a FREE download. However, I would need someone to host it for me. This monster weighs in at 212mb on the CD ... and I don't have the orginal files to modify anything. So I can't shrink down the size of the setup file by removing the voice support etc ... Does anyone have this kind of bandwidth?
Also another question (Forgive me I've been away from the forums ... darn StarWars Galaxies) ... is there going to be an AGS awards this year? Last I heard Dgmacphee wasn't doing it?
Hurrah! FREE!
I look forward to it!
And hopefully, no hard feelings?
Cheers,
Steve
Nice reply Ionias looking forward to your next game!
About web space- did you try to contact AD?
In general i don't think there's a point in arguing against reviews anyway. Every reviewer is standing behind his/her opinion.
Lets not forget Gilbert Goodmate started out as amateur project as well and nobody seem to spare it any harsh review or comment.
Besides- AG gave Broken Sword2 2 points out of 5. I think Ionias can be proud :)
YAY! ITS FREE! YAY! YAY! \o/
Quote from: Ionias on Thu 16/10/2003 22:48:24
OUCH! That was a harsh review.
But I'll tell you the truth I expected every review to be as harsh as this one. I'm just not that proud of Fatman as a commercial product. Don't get me wrong I put my heart and soul into this game (as did everyone who helped) and I'm very proud of it ... just not as a commercial product. Somehow I feel dirty? I think he's right as a "free-ware" product it would have been met with open arms. You just can't argue with FREE! :)
Now ... I've made back the cash I invested into this game, and I want to make Fatman a FREE download. However, I would need someone to host it for me. This monster weighs in at 212mb on the CD ... and I don't have the orginal files to modify anything. So I can't shrink down the size of the setup file by removing the voice support etc ... Does anyone have this kind of bandwidth?
Also another question (Forgive me I've been away from the forums ... darn StarWars Galaxies) ... is there going to be an AGS awards this year? Last I heard Dgmacphee wasn't doing it?
If you look at the complete list of reviewed games at AdventureGamers you'll see that many games got lower scores than FatMan! (and those games cost more than $15 I tell you). So it's not all that bad, you should be at least a little proud :P
--Erwin
Um, won't people who paid $15 for Fatman be a bit annoyed if you make it free less than half a year after releasing it?
Besides, I don't see why you're dissatisfied with it - it got positive reviews elsewhere, and I've not heard anybody express disappointment in the game after buying it (on the contrary, the people at Gameboomers seem to universally love it). Besides, it's less than half the price of other commercial games - it doesn't have to be as spectacular as the big-boy commercial releases to be worth the price tag.
If you really are concerned with its worth as a commercial release, why don't you just drop the price even further rather than remove the price completely? The lower the price of the game, the better value for money people get. If players and reviewers thought your game was great at $15, they're going to love it at $8 (or whatever).
Anyway, this post is just to say I don't believe you should make it freeware, because from what I've heard, it's a game worth paying for. I have no doubt that when I get round to buying it, it'll provide me with more pleasure than some of the pricier commercial releases I've had the misfortune to buy (*gack*feeblefilessimon3dstarshiptitanic*gack*).
yea i would be terribly annoyed if a game i just bought came out as freeware a few months after i purchased it...
drop the price or something just don't make it free
Yeap, I'm still doing the AGS Awards, Mike.
I'll be doing a complete site redevelopment soon in a new sylpher.com account.
Hrm ... you're right I hadn't thought of that. I guess releasing the game as FREE now would be a bit unfair to the folks who shelled out thier hard earned buckazoids. I think I'll just lower the price to $9.99 w/ free shipping.
Oh ... and thanks for the kind words folks. I might not post as much as I used to but I'm always lurking and you guys mean a lot to me. And as far as my next game goes ... I'd love to team up and do a freeware adventure with someone. I've had it with commercial stress! :P
DGmacphee: Alright bro! It just wouldn't be the same without you.
What about a pay-for-download sort of thing?
Hey Mike, save a copy of Fatman for me so I can buy it at the next Mittens :P
And about freeware game... I'd love to team up with you :P ;)
Hey Mike, good to hear you're still alive. Never on MSN anymore, eh?
How about releasing it free without speech and without any of the special features and still have the cd available for purchase?
Chrille: Great idea, but:
QuoteI don't have the orginal files to modify anything. So I can't shrink down the size of the setup file by removing the voice support etc ...
Too bad :(
Not even the sound and/or speech packs are different files?
Speech packs are separate files and you can run ags games without the speechpack, it should be possible to just extract the files using the setup and make a new installer.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
If you want to release it for free but want to be nice the people who paid for it, why not just release the non-talkie version for free? If someone wants a talkie version (and anything extra you might have included with the box), they'd have to pay.
That would be very cool. I'd love to play Fatman, but I would probably never buy it. Not because I'm cheap (which I admit :)), but because I just don't buy things online (dumb, I know).
It's too bad that you don't have the original files (why would anyone get rid of those? What if you had to do a bug fix for later releases?) or you could have had voices in the intro (like DOTT and Sam & Max floppy versions) to get freeware users interested in the voice version. Kinda like the floppy vs. cd-rom versions of the LucasArts games (they used to have a voucher in the box so you could upgrade to the cd version at a reduced price if you already had the floppy version).
Very good ideas. I'll try and see if I can install the setup and seperate the voice files ... if the size of the main .zip is small enough I might be able to host it myself.
Chrille: Hey d00d! :) Yeah I'm still alive. I just don't log onto MSN IM anymore cuz I'm far too busy playing Star Wars Galaxies 24hrs a day. :)
Petteri: I hope I can make the next mittens! Should be able to if it's in NYC. Send me an email w/ your game idea(s)
btw, what galaxy are you on? :)
I'm on the Bria server. I hang out on Corellia on Coronet. Name's Evedo.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507
Quote from: remixor on Sat 18/10/2003 14:20:05
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507
Okay, the guy that wrote the review posted a message in there saying, "Do I think the game is worth 15 bucks? Not at all - especially when I can go and download 5 Days a Stranger for free."
To that... I want to say... WHAT THE FUCK?!
What fucking relevance does being able to download some other free game have to do with whether or not Fatman is worth paying for?
Holy shit there's thousands of free games on the net... I GUESS I WONT BUY ANOTHER GAME EVER AGAIN.
Bah.
That's why a lot of people never buy games. Like me.
Quote from: Toefur on Sat 18/10/2003 15:24:51
Quote from: remixor on Sat 18/10/2003 14:20:05
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507
Okay, the guy that wrote the review posted a message in there saying, "Do I think the game is worth 15 bucks? Not at all - especially when I can go and download 5 Days a Stranger for free."
To that... I want to say... WHAT THE FUCK?!
What fucking relevance does being able to download some other free game have to do with whether or not Fatman is worth paying for?
Holy shit there's thousands of free games on the net... I GUESS I WONT BUY ANOTHER GAME EVER AGAIN.
Bah.
Maybe you should post this on the AG forums instead of here. I think your opinion would serve more purpose there.
--Erwin
Duh how offtopic this is, but Mike, I sent you an email in Socko Entertainment email because that was the only one I found :P
Hey guys,
This is Robert Michaud, and I wrote the review for The Adventures of Fatman. I heard over in the AG forum that this was getting some discussion over here â€" and some of the same points were being brought up â€" so I thought I would address them here as well.
First of all, I appreciate the intelligent discussion over the review, and the total lack of ‘What the Fuck’ postings â€" make that almost total lack, but it was a ‘What the Fuck’ with a good point.
Let’s start with the amateur vs. commercial discussion. This was a discussion that I had with the editors of AG as well, and it was decided that if a game was being sold, then it was a commercial game â€" even if a one-man team made it. I think that I did come across as harsh on some of the points, but the underlying message was simply that this was a good game â€" just not something I saw as a commercial game.
Second of all, the comment ‘I wanted to like this game’ was cliché but also very true. One of the main reasons that I signed on with AG was the fact that they would let me review Fatman. This was a game that I had been looking at for a while and really wanted to play, especially based on the reviews of a few other sites. But AG held the game to a higher criteria, and I agree with that.
As far as the comment about how ten years ago Fatman would have been a graphical treat, I somewhat disagree. I think putting Fatman up against Monkey Island or Day of the Tentacle will show you that it still would have been good, but not great. And besides, ten years ago Milli Vanilli was a treat as well. Times change.
Now for the voice comments. The voice acting did drag down the score some, but not as much as you might think. I turned off the voices halfway through the game and enjoyed it a lot more. I would save frequently and re-load if a new character came up so I could hear the new voice. Voices seem to be a big polarizing issue with this game â€" almost a love it or hate it issue. I didn’t think the voices fit the characters, but as I stated in the review, kudos for having the drive to take the time to include full voice support. I thought the band voices were good, the Fatcomputer was well-done, and all of the female voices fit great.
The super-commercial comment was a bad attempt at humor. This is why I review comedy games instead of writing them.
Another great comment I’ve been getting slammed into my email at the speed of light is how I can complain about lowbrow humor when I gave Beavis and Butthead four stars. I gave Beavis and Butthead four stars because Beavis and Butthead is about lowbrow humor and they did it well, as does the LSL series. I agree that that comment was on the harsh side, but if you re-read the review, I only commented on two instances because those were two instances that I thought were out of place in the game â€" not because the entire game was full of lowbrow humor. The intent of that paragraph was to put it into the context of the old Zucker films â€" toss a joke a second and some of them are bound to be funny.
Boy this is turning into a thesis pretty quickly…
As for the Reality on the Norm comment, that was merely to give an idea of what the graphics in the game looked like. That was not an insult, as I am a huge fan of the series, but merely a comparison.
Look…when I started programming 10 years ago I put out some good freeware, and people liked it. But when I started asking for money for it, I was a professional developer, and held up against other companies that made my work look like shit. That’s life, and it made me work harder at becoming a better programmer. This was a good game, and if it doesn’t win a shitload of amateur gaming awards, then it’s a shame. But if it is a commercial game â€" and it is â€" then I think there is still some work to be done before it can stand next to some of the other commercial games out there.
That’s my two cents worth. I wrote the review, and I stand by it. If you agree, great, and if you don’t agree, then great. I think Roger Ebert’s an asshat, but I still read his reviews if for no other reason than to have something to discuss with other movie-philes.
I think that’s it. If I missed something, or you just want to discuss further outside of the board, my email address is below and I welcome the discussion.
Ionias, congrats on taking that leap into the commercial field. Slap some band-aids on those war wounds, and I’m looking forward to playing your next game.
Robert Michaud
Robert@AdventureGamers.com
It's nice that you take your time to come here and write such a considerate and thoughtful post. I really hope nobody will hold a grudge against you because of the review
Where CAN Fatman be bought. Since I'm poor, and 15, and don't have a job, and don't get any money from my parents (EVER), and I live in the countryside. It's quite hard for me to buy ANYTHING. I was looking forward for it to be getting freeware :(. Maybe someone could send me a copy?
Quote from: Haddas on Sun 19/10/2003 11:10:52
Where CAN Fatman be bought. Since I'm poor, and 15, and don't have a job, and don't get any money from my parents (EVER), and I live in the countryside. It's quite hard for me to buy ANYTHING. I was looking forward for it to be getting freeware :(. Maybe someone could send me a copy?
You have to buy it online anyway, so it really doesn't matter where you live.
http://www.socko-entertainment.com/
>:(Darn!
...Anyone want to donate money to my PayPal account?:)?
I know what I was in for when I released Fatman as commercial. The review was harsh but it's cool Robert. It's your job to look at things objectively. Not a job I would want. :)
Haddas: I'm looking into a way to release Fatman w/out speech for free. Just sit tight and you may be able to play it soon. :)
Quote from: remixor on Wed 15/10/2003 13:36:08
I'm a dedicated Adventure Gamers visitor, and a regular poster on their forums, but I actually disagree with a LOT of their reviews. I think the main reason for this is that their staff has such a revolving-door manner of operation (not that this is deliberate), and their reviewers run the gamut from classic adventur gamers (like most of us here at AGS), to MYST-fanatics, to "new-age" adventure gamers (ones into all the stuff by The Adventure Company and so forth) who have never even played the classics. As a result, their reviews can be VERY inconsistent, especially if you look at their star ratings, but even if you read the reviews objectively. They can have some pretty questionable reviews.
Anyway, their Fatman review was another I don't particularly agree with, and even though the review wasn't that positive, I still think two stars was too low even for that particular review. This reviewer also gave Beavis and Butthead four stars, and I'm sure that isn't a bad game, but it strikes me as a bit odd to be giving it four if you're giving Fatman 2...
Running the gamut? Inconsistancy? I think Adventure Gamers would be remiss if all their reviewers held to a happy middle distance or Borg adventure consciousness. So what if everyone has a differing age or background (though I have no clue who fits the "I love all things DreamCatcher" you intimate, if anything, we've been grossly negligent on reviewing DC/Adventure Company titles. And Myst fantatic. ?!).
Nobody gets paid to review, with the exception of a review copy here and there. It's our love for the genre and motivation to be part of what saves it that makes us stay up late working out the details and accuracy of our wording when we should be in bed. Okay, maybe I'm just speaking for myself here. ANYway...we are admonished to try and be as general as possible, i.e. "I didn't care for the dialogue tree, but if you like wordy adventures, this may intrigue you", etc. - as a reviewer we're tasked to think outside our own bias, which is a difficult thing to do; I'm inclined to be betrayed by bias to a degree, in almost every review I write. Something I intend to continually work on.
I think these things need to be kept in mind when reading other peoples reviews. We're gamers, just like you - perhaps not as intelligent or eloquent, but driven by the game nonetheless.
Quote from: Ionias on Sun 19/10/2003 14:44:50
...It's your job to look at things objectively. Not a job I would want. :)
:)
Ionias,
I just want to say that I am proud of you and what you have accomplished. In my opinion one of the most important things you have done is that you have shown that it is possible for independent game developers to make money. I think breaking even is an important milestone and I hope you hang in there for a while longer.
Perhaps you could take the time to publish a white paper about the experience for the benefit of other would be comercializers.
As far as the "harsh" review goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Robert seems to be honest and sincere in his review and has taken the time to come here and participate in this discussion. That review is just a battle scar man, be proud of it.
As far as where to go from here? Since you already have a website setup for people to make purchases, perhaps you could offer some kind compilation of some of the better AGS games along with Fatman (with consent of the Authors of course)? Well, just and idea. I'll leave it to you to consider it's merits.
Again Ionias, good work. Your an inspiration to all.
Cheers
Rick