Has anyone ever paid for a commercial AGS game??

[Ninjas]

I wouldn't love video games so much if they all had awful stories and music. Is it really a challenge to write a better story than the one in MGS 2? Most American video games have techno type music, which I have to say, just about anyone can write.

I don't know what to say if you disagree and think techno music is hard to write, or that MGS 2 had a great story. You could think human feces taste great and love the sound of a fork on a chalkboard also. Personal preferences are beyond logic.

One of my favorite games is Ico; a game that has no english dialog. Shadow of the Collossus (by the same team) has much more story and is the worse for it. Why? Because the story makes no sense at all. I could have written half a dozen better endings than the one they had.

While there are a great number of successful games that have had bad music and terrible story, there are none that I can think of that have had awful graphics.

[Helm]

actually there's amateurish awful mediocre techno music, and there's competent interesting techno music, as in any other genre, and it's not difficult to spot the difference.

As to MGS2, all it had going for it in my opinion was the story, so eh

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

...Which again, is your opinion rather than fact.  Wolfenstein and Doom had terrible graphics imo but they still sold well- and I'm talking about when compared with games out and around at that time like BASS (at least I think it was).  Wing Commander had awful visuals in battle (again, the overly scaled sprites) for the time, but damn I loved those games.

Some people (not me) greatly enjoyed MGS 2, and have argued furiously with me about it.  I don't think their like is 'beyond logic' as you seem to believe, but rather a different standard for the game.  Going into MGS 2 I was looking for a taut espionage thriller with a realistic plot-and didn't get one, so I was disappointed.  But others were attracted to the quirky turns the story took. 

And be careful what you say about Shadow of Colossus lest you incur the Privateer's wrath!

[Ninjas]

I have no idea what you are talking about ProgZmax. Wing Commander had cutting edge graphics when it came out. Doom had game journalists gushing about how immersive the 3D environments were. I bought the first Gamepro, and recieved the first Nintendo Funclub News. I remember the prevailing views on these games at the time, and I simply think you are wrong.

Helm:
So what type of techno music do you usually see in games? The interesting type or the amateurish?

[Renal Shutdown]

Most American video games have techno type music, which I have to say, just about anyone can write.

I have a challenge for you.  Pick an American video game, and a certain section of it, and write a "Techno-type" piece of music to fit that scene.  Since you think anybody can write it, I'd assume 24 hours is plenty of time.  Let's see how many people think it fits well.

Also, it's not just down to graphics, story, music and whatnot.  It's gameplay that really makes things do well.  Evil Genius had neat graphics, and good plot and perfect music.  It also had a sense of humor. It still got let down by the fact that it wasn't as fun as it could be.

[Helm]

Helm:
So what type of techno music do you usually see in games? The interesting type or the amateurish?

The personally unnapealing but definately competently produced.

[vict0r]

No-one writes techno music, do they? I thought it was more like, you come up with a "beat" and work on it until you have, what some folks would call good, music.

And as to MGS 2, the story is not supposed to be "realistic", but rather colourful. If they wanted a realistic game, it wouldnt be called "metal gear solid", but "nuclear bomb" or "terrorist attack".

[Ninjas]

I have a challenge for you.Ã,  Pick an American video game, and a certain section of it, and write a "Techno-type" piece of music to fit that scene.Ã,  Since you think anybody can write it, I'd assume 24 hours is plenty of time.Ã,  Let's see how many people think it fits well.

I'm actually pretty busy right now with real work, but when it comes time to do the music for my game I'll be more than happy to hear everyone's feedback on the music I create for it.

[LimpingFish]

LimpingFish dances the Off-Topic dance...

But, I don't think I'd ever pay for an AGS game.

[Play_Pretend]

I got asked the other day by my day-job boss how much time I'd put into the game, and when I finally did the math I realized I've invested 8 months of my life so far, at approximately 800 - 1000 man-hours of my personal time put in on it.  I'm only about 1/3 completely done, but I think I'll finish by June.  And yet, I'm still giving it away for free, because I love adventure games. . .it's probably going to be one of those 500 Meg games due to all the graphics and animations and s'forth.

I figured the farthest I would go is just saying, hey, if you can't download my huge-sized file, I'd accept maybe four bucks or less just to cover the cost of a CD and shipping so I can send it to the dial-up AGSers.  Don't want anyone to be deprived.   I'd even been thinking about throwing in a jewel case with cover art just for that.  Or Paypal donations from people who enjoyed it and want to encourage future games would be acceptable to me.

Eh.  It's worth it to me, money or no.  Adventure games need to keep being made.

[InCreator]

What the hell is "techno type music"?
People who can't tell difference - let's say - between trance and house and call every synthetic piece of crap "techno", better shut up or educate yourselves first.
No, it's WAAAY not something anyone could write.
Yes, some genres of electronic music sound like they're MADE for game background music. It just depends on genre.

[Nikolas]

Well, with the thousands/millions maybe loops around in the net and CDs/DVDs, it does get a little easy to compile something.

There is no longer need for production skills or anything. You get a ready made drum loop at 120 bpm and a bass loop at 120 bpm and you're almost done. If you add a simple synth above all, you get something... And I use the word something, as I can't find a proper label to put here.

Doom and Wolfenstein had kinda awfull graphics but the atmosphere was all that counted, after all...

A good games is consisted of all the different aspects, of course... Amd usually music is left a little behind, along with the explositions and stuff and guns and all, and the stunning graphics, that are easy to see and do. This is the way that music works in films also.

There is a problem with making a game in AGS.

Since it is free you cannot get to spent 40 hours a week to do what you have to do to make every aspect of the game perfect. Then there is the problem that it is rather imposible for one single person to be very good at all aspects. I can write music and come up with puzzles and stories. but can't draw shit! The same goes with 99% of the people! And it is only natural, as I spent practically all my life being a musician, which has given me the talent to write music. Havent done the same with drawing...

Even worst to have 4-5 people (at least) that you need to cover ever ydepartment of the game and have them being commited as they should to provide a good "service" is extremly difficult. There have been AGS games that have been succesfull in all areas, but still it is difficult for them to reach the standards of todays commercial games... In every aspect.

Which brings me to the most important point of this post:

I don't buy only the latest music and disregard the rest (and actually every CD I buy, I listen to it forever...). Why couldn't I doi the same with computer games? Why do I need cutting edge graphics, or fucking great music, or 3d or anything like that? I personally don't (every time), so I would definately buy AGS games (and I will, starting probably with the Zone) ,adn going to Ninja and Al Emmo and other games. They definately seem worthwhile... By my standards. And my standards are not based by compering commercial games, made by spending millions, with one mans job! I respect the one man who did what he did, immensly!

[InCreator]

[offtopic]
Compile? Yes, like this program Dance eJay, the shame of everything electronic out there.

But is that so-called "making" or "writing" music?
I'd say that this is mixing music, not really making it. Like DJs do.

I'm not saying that it's as hard as singing opera, for example.
But I hate when people label about 100 genres of music under a word "techno". These people can't tell techno apart from cutting wood. If you take one genre of electronic music, and another, and compare them, it may simply be that they're as different as... er... punk rock versus japanese national songs?

And. Depends what you call "techno". Of course, anthem trance or  some kind of ambient techno are nothing to make. But they neither fit for any game aswell!

Nikolas -- what's that thing with 120 bpm? That's the speed of hiphop and maybe some quite slow house. Most of synthetic music starts usually at 135 (real "techno", pop hits from early 90s, mostly from Sweden artists) and ends at 145 (real trance, extinct for today).

Ah, there's a guide which gets things quite right. What was that link again? See yourself, infidels

http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html

[/well, that was offtopic indeed]

[ManicMatt]

[still off-topic]

I'm interested in this conversation now it's about music!

Five or so years ago I started, as you'd define it, 'mixing' music. It was someplace to start with no actual experience. I'd write my own lyrics to it and sing over it. This was done with PS2 programs. Sure enough... it wasn't very good and after making lots of songs with pre-made loops I finally came across music 3000 on the PS2 and I could create my own stuff! There were pre-made stuff but I shy away from it as much as I can. I am still nicking little bytes of sound off there, like a small synth, and then expand on it and write the chords. Some say this is still not my own stuff to some degree, but how is it any different to a pianoist using the piano's pre-made sound? I'm telling you, if someone tried to make the same songs as me on the same program they'd have a very hard time doing so. Sure... this has been mostly just about me.. oops sorry!

Speaking of techno, a friend tells me this song of mine has techno elements to it, is this true? Is it techno? Increator, please listen to "Denial"  and wait until the first verse has ended to hear the techno bit. Is this techno? I made the beats, riffs, loops, sounds etc from scratch. Hm? Oh, i'll check out that guide anyway.

http://www.myspace.com/manicmatt3uk

[m0ds]

You can talk about music, its not off-topic because in some ways its related to the topic.

Talking about commercial game music, and speaking as a composer - a lot of in-game music is tacky, really un-impressive & extremely repetitive. You just don't notice it as much because of the action & gameplay. So yes, just about anyone could write music for in-game moments. Call of Duty 2 for Xbox 360 springs to mind. In-game music there is somewhat lame, apart from a cut-scene or menu sequences. To be fair, anyone can create a string part, a brass part and a snare that goes tat tat tat tat tat tat.

As for making or mixing music, the only time I would consider someone to be making music is if they are placing each part note by note. Dragging in samples, using eJay and what not isn't making music at all. It's making tracks with a bunch of resources at your finger tips. It requires you to think about what sample works after another and what works with another. In no way does it actually ask for any real musical talent in CREATING melodies, riffs and so forth. In my opinion, you need to have a grasp of harmony to even start to class yourself as a musician

People who can't tell difference - let's say - between trance and house and call every synthetic piece of crap "techno", better shut up or educate yourselves first.

I think you'd find that most people over 40 in the UK WOULD class any thing with a boom boom boom beat in it as techno. Don't get tetchy about people calling "trance" techno or "jungle" "gabba" - it really doesnt matter. They all follow the same structure. A by the beat drum beat, some samples & a repetive melody. And occasionally a woman singing or a man shouting. Thats why people say it so. Also, in twenty years time, I doubt you'll really care about all the different types - and trust me by then there'll be so many I doubt MANY people will really care whether they're listening to metal trance, plastic trance or bi-carbonate of soda trance.

[ManicMatt]

Actually, when it comes to just plonking loops together to 'make' a song, I've heard some songs made that way that sound utterly shit, and some that aint half bad. (I'm excluding myself in that list for this example) So I feel there is SOME talent required, if not much. Just general know how for how a song should sound I suppose.

[m0ds]

Sure, there certainly are some awesome tracks made through sampling and what not, but the thought process really isn't as hard as that of composing raw material. I agree, knowing how a "song should sound" is one of the main aspects.

[Nikolas]

Ninjas: I don't follow at all the electronic scene, so I had no idea at what bmp the tracks are. 120 was just an example.

mOds: No it's not that easy to create a string part, some brass and a snare going ra ta ta ta. At least not at a level that it can sound decent. Not to mention that I consider music to be a languade. And as any language you have to be taught in order to speak and write. Not listen. It could be self-taught or taught in a college, but still taught somehow. You cannot expect from someone who has never done any music to write a string part. No way!

And of course I don't see any reason to label music. Especially music that has been done with care and love and not to be labeled on it's own...

Sampling is fine, just fine...

And of course when we talk about game music, we compare it to what? Films? Classical concerts? Symphonic music? Pop techno/trance/whatever genre? U2? NIN? A rather difficult comparison indeed. How many composers do you know that can succesfully evade and if not win a confrontation with Trevor Reznor? All music that tries to be like NIN (spring Doom for example), in the end will kinda suck! Kinda! Cause Trevor is just amazing!

...And Matt knows that!

[m0ds]

Trust me, if you've heard Call of Duty 2's in-game music, then you'll understand what I mean about that string & brass part It really does sound like it was composed by an AGS n00b. But then I would say that, because I am at a level where I can compose quite good music. I don't disagree, for a normal person it would be hard to make a string/brass/snare tune that is in tune, but simply making it, wouldn't be hard. The tools out there exist for everyone nowadays, so its only a matter of giving it a go before you can start to make something reasonable. Anyway, I don't even know what I'm debating now so i'll shut up...

My main reason for replying was to ask you not to swear, please safe

[InCreator]

Well, what I tried to say that this is not just kick-hithat-kick&snare-hithat neverending loop. This is a very large portion of music/modern culture, and when digging in - learning terms and styles, a whole science... Well, atleast in Europe.

It's quite underground too. Most of what makes techno and its roots good, is actually underground, and something you'll never hear on radio. And radio... well, radio really plays shit. Usually because people don't get deep into the music that's primarily meant to dance to. They want something simple and memorable. So deep, complex tracks never gain popularity and unpopular things are not on air. And no one knows the jewels then. So overall prestige of genre will be low for people who take music seriously.

There's some genres and songs that, well, I think - they are *meant* to be for background music. There's lots of really good stuff and some of so complex compositions that they may easily be compared to classical concerts. But usually it's art of using simple things to make something complex. Simple melodies, pads, beats, etc combine to make a memorable, even psychedelic tune. Often just one instrument and one melody is used. But by adding few filters and effects (like Flanger of Phaser) and using it professionally, it gets a whole new "face" and the short piece of melody gets used extremely well. It's absolute opposite for classical music, where melodies come and come.


Paul Oakenfold - Ready Steady Go -- I can't imagine this song anywhere else than being a theme for background of sci-fi/extreme sports movies or shows... which it is used mostly.

Necros - Mechanism Eight --  I usually listen to this song while going to work at the morning and walking around in city. It just... gives emotions of advanced technology and progress of humankind, it somehow strongly moves me. BTW, it's the background music from original Unreal Tournament, train map. (Futuristic game? It rocked twice as much there!)

Tracks like this do have purpose as background music, though they can be labelled as "techno". But-- they are good! And they fit.

Can't think of any more atm...