Has anyone ever paid for a commercial AGS game??

Ninjas · Mon 09/01/2006 18:44:21

When I say "techno type music", I am refering to the type of lame music they put in video games. I have been to enough raves to tell the difference between some lame House music and pumping Goa Trance.

I say writing Techno type music to the level required of a commercial video game is easy because this is what you need to do.

1) Come up with a beat
2) Make a couple of layers for a build-up
3) Fool with it until it sounds right

It does take time, but if you have an ear for it (developed by listening to A LOT of the music you are trying to create) and the patience, it is not hard. Try using 3DS Max at random until you get something that will fit the definition of passable game art and I think you'll start to understand my point.

The tools for writing music nowdays are really amazing (Reason springs to mind, but the lame Adobe Audition which I own is still okay), and there is nothing that comes close to the ease of use music programs have in the 3D art world. But you come back to the fact that music is abstract and 3D is trying to match photo realism, and so 3D must be more complicated.

Adamski · Mon 09/01/2006 18:50:32

Can someone point out a commercial game that prominently features 'easy to write' techno music? The only techno soundtracks that spring to mind are the Wipeout ones... and perhaps Deus Ex might be considered too to the average uneducated pop music denzien (although there's not a hint of incompitence in the writing or musical integrity of that specific game, and I will have fisticuffs in the car park with anyone who might think otherwise).

Don't listen to that flash-music-guide thing either, it's riddled with personal bias and mis-information. Where most people go wrong with this kind of thing is trying to pidgeon-hole every minute variation into subgenres, when in fact it can all be piled into 'good music' and 'bad music' depending on personal preference.

And yes, it IS as easy to write a throwaway bit of rat-a-tat orchestral music these days as it is to make something that goes OOTZ OOTZ OOTZ OOTZ YEAH YEAH BABY DUGGA-DA DUGGA-DA DUGGA-DA DUGGA-DA... or a four-power-chord acoustic punk ballard about how much of a loser you are.

In every avenue of music you will find works of art and childish skribbles in crayon and this perhaps holds true with computer entertainment, but I could reel off a list of games that have sublime soundtracks much quicker than I could ones with awful soundtracks.

MrColossal · Mon 09/01/2006 18:56:42

but, would a bad soundtrack stop you from buying an AGS game?

how about bad art?

Pet Terry · Mon 09/01/2006 19:31:13

How about any other kind of music than "techno"? I don't think none of the games I have played during the past couple of months have had a "techno" soundtrack (and trust me, it's not just a couple of games). Are you able to make awesome orchestral tunes? Laid-back caribbeanish tracks? Sci-fi-ish mysterious atmospheric tunes? Medieval music? Easy-listening? Jazz? Rock? Hmm?

ManicMatt · Mon 09/01/2006 19:49:39

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 09/01/2006 18:13:54
Ninjas: I don't follow at all the electronic scene, so I had no idea at what bmp the tracks are. 120 was just an example.

mOds: No it's not that easy to create a string part, some brass and a snare going ra ta ta ta. At least not at a level that it can sound decent. Not to mention that I consider music to be a languade. And as any language you have to be taught in order to speak and write. Not listen. It could be self-taught or taught in a college, but still taught somehow. You cannot expect from someone who has never done any music to write a string part. No way!

And of course I don't see any reason to label music. Especially music that has been done with care and love and not to be labeled on it's own...

Sampling is fine, just fine...

And of course when we talk about game music, we compare it to what? Films? Classical concerts? Symphonic music? Pop techno/trance/whatever genre? U2? NIN? A rather difficult comparison indeed. How many composers do you know that can succesfully evade and if not win a confrontation with Trevor Reznor? All music that tries to be like NIN (spring Doom for example), in the end will kinda suck! Kinda! Cause Trevor is just amazing!

...And Matt knows that!

I'm not sure if you are suggesting I "kinda suck" or that I can't evade a comparison to trent Reznor?

Indeed I am unable to evade being compared to his music. Whether that's because it's all many people have heard within that sort of genre to compare it with, or I really DO sound like him somehow, I'm not sure.

But let it be known, after being compared to him a million times I went out and bought a couple of his albums (with teeth, downward spiral) just to see why. Hey, not bad! Totally honestly the only songs I'd heard by him were "perfect drug" and "hurt" and maybe a few others that I can't recite.

But really, I think I just get the comparison because my music is depressing with electronic music in it.

InCreator, I implore you! Tell me what genre I should call myself! Go on! Pweeease!

LimpingFish · Mon 09/01/2006 21:46:20

"Techno" music in games is a turn-off for me.

I like games to have a soundtrack that compliments or underscores the on-screen action or drama.

Hitman 2, the Metal Gear games, the Tenchu series, would all be among my favourite soundtracks.

Generic Techno, or Techno-style tunes, just annoy me after a while.

Someone mentioned Deus Ex, a game that I felt lacked, save for the main theme, any kind of "Musical Identity", something that seems to affect most Techno music in games.

One of the first times I came across a Techno soundtrack in a game was "Streets Of Rage" on the Megadrive/Genesis. People raved about how it was the best soundtrack they'd ever heard. I dunno, it just gave me a headache after a while.

But would crap music stop me buying a game? Hasn't happened yet.

But then, would fantastic music make you buy a particular game? $:-\$

The Inquisitive Stranger · Mon 09/01/2006 22:28:14

Well... there IS a point in that you can (almost) always turn off a game's music, but you can't really turn off the graphics (unless you fumble around with your eyes closed... hey, now THAT would be an interesting gaming experience).

Adamski · Mon 09/01/2006 22:32:43

QuoteSomeone mentioned Deus Ex, a game that I felt lacked, save for the main theme, any kind of "Musical Identity"

I couldn't disagree more strongly with this statement. I would elaborate but it would involve much arm-flailing.

MrColossal · Mon 09/01/2006 22:38:14

yes, you're right DS, there's already too much in your avatar...

Adamski · Mon 09/01/2006 22:42:44

But... I have no avatar! Consider yourself counter-zinged!

Ninjas · Mon 09/01/2006 22:46:59

The use of lame generic techno music at all I think shows that commercial video games have pretty low standards for music. Most games employ one guy for music, but at least 10 guys for art. Really, I thought I was saying something pretty obvious when I said the gaming press won't even review your game if it has bad graphics.

A lot of people on here thought I said that the music in games is all bad, or that all electronic music is bad, or that all electronic music is easy to make and I said none of those things. What I meant was that getting music that is considered "good enough" for a commercial game is easy compared to making art that is "good enough" for a commercial game.

My point was that people saying "I wouldn't buy an AGS game" probably don't even know what AGS can do. Without too much trouble I got some cool frame blended motion blur to work in my game, and paralax scrolling without any plug-ins. I'm no programmer and that is just the tip of the iceburg. The only thing AGS doesn't do at this point is 3D, so people saying they wouldn't buy an AGS game is the same as saying they wouldn't buy a 2D game. And I just can't take seriously the opinion that 2D games are inferior. Have fun playing Street Fighter EX! Ha!

The reason people have this unfair stereotype of AGS is that so many games are created by amateurs in 320x200 rez graphics. That is fine, and some of those games are really great, but AGS can do so much more. I think a lot of people on here don't realize that there are pros out there working with in-house tools with only the most basic functionality (pray you have an undo function). AGS is a dream compared to that. As a development tool AGS is amazing, which lets people focus on the code and art and music, and that lets people make better games.

LimpingFish · Mon 09/01/2006 23:01:12

Deus Ex, musically, well...

Shitty, is a word that springs instantly to mind.

Bland, would be another.

But I think I'll stick with shitty.

Edit: Although now that I think of it, 'Twee' best articulates my feelings on the matter.

Adamski · Mon 09/01/2006 23:07:08

Alright Limping Fish, looks like it's going to be fisticuffs in the carpark then

Ninjas, I can't help but feel you've been playing all the wrong games to say that commercial games have a low standard for music. Played Morrowind recently? Any of the Thief series? Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory? How about Grim Fandango? The Curse of Monkey Island? Quest For Glory 4? Surely you've played Monkey Island 2? No? Final Fantasy 7? Secret of Mana? The megadrive Sonic games? We can go as far back as Wonderboy 3 if you like

Edit: There'll be a point soon too when the whole weight of the 3D glorifiaction collapses in on itself as it becomes so impossibly technically involved to make games with new technology, and people will realise again that a beautifully drawn 2D game is much more enjoyable than a badly made 3D game. I hold John Carmack responsable for the shift of focus from 'gameplay and immersion' to 'fans that cast real time shadows on the foor in 38582x29451 resolution!'

LimpingFish · Mon 09/01/2006 23:10:17

LimpingFish pauses in lacing up his boxing gloves...

Wonderboy 3! Man, that takes me back.

LimpingFish goes all misty-eyed...

ManicMatt · Mon 09/01/2006 23:22:21

Deus Ex: invisible war had some licensed music by kidneythieves, which is where I got into that band! As for the ingame music, I turned it off..

MrColossal · Tue 10/01/2006 01:01:30

Quick Adam, punch him now while he's all nostalgiac!

InCreator · Tue 10/01/2006 01:25:19

QuoteInCreator, I implore you! Tell me what genre I should call myself! Go on! Pweeease!

Experimental Industrial Vocal Techno with elements of PunkMetal? Or other way around?

Hehe, I don't know. Your songs lack high sounds (beepy sounds) to go under any trance or techno subgenre and the beats go somewhere towards Jungle/Drum'n'Bass.

As many say, the genres usually collide and mix so there's really no strict rules what is what. Making genres is just putting similar tracks together, by bpm and amount of melody. And people don't listen to genres, they just usually scope for "right stuff". For me, "right stuff" is usually Progressive/Anthem/Epic (by this weird guide) trance tracks and lot's of different house. Other stuff is... too hardcore.

But I guess it's quite safe to call it Rave. Sounds like The Prodigy before they released any records and got super famous.

Listening at some tracks, I don't think that you developed an attachment to one genre yet. Add thunder kick drums and 160 bpm of speed and you're doing gabber/hardstyle. Give even more tempo and add ear cutter snares, deeeep bass and lots of tambourine/hithat stuff - you're about to make some dark drum'n'bass. etc.

Kinoko · Tue 10/01/2006 03:27:09

To continue with this OT discussion... my two cents.

"Techno", to a lover of such or similar kinds of music, means something very specific. "Techno" to anyone else means all that modern music with electronic beats and boom-booms collectively.

Let's not fight about who's right and who's wrong. I don't know what house or jungle is, but I respect people who are into it and understand the different genres. To me, I use the work in the blanket sense. I don't mean offense, but that's what it is in my world, my life. I don't have an interest in it so I don't care. We should always try to see these things from the other person's point of view. My parents don't know one computer game from the next, but that's -fine-, they don't need to. I can see where they're coming from with that.

As for saying "all techno is talentless shit" or something similar... again, that's FINE. You can't say someone shouldn't think that, it's an opinion. In the same vein, they shouldn't assume that someone who IS a fan of techno/jungle/drum and bass is listening to the same stuff they've heard to give them that impression.

I must admit, for the most part, I -do- believe creating "techno" music takes FAR less talent that normal music. I've made techno music... it's pretty damn easy if you have a computer! I can't even play chopsticks on the piano though.

That doesn't mean I'm making high quality "techno" music though, nor does it mean that just because it's amateurish, someone wouldn't enjoy it. I -LOVE- my own techno music. I think it's awesome, but it wasn't very hard. Not 'hard' when compared to writing music from scratch or playing an instrument, that's for sure.

However, I -know- that there are some people that truly can make fantastic "techno" music, that I don't think just anyone can do. To me, the Jet Set Radio soundtrack features fantastic pieces of electronic music. That shit is just damn funky, and I've been listening to it for YEARS without ever getting sick of it.

In summary: Let's not get angry at other people's perceptions, AND let's not just make full on blanket statements about things (in a serious fashion) when you haven't experienced that much of the genre. If you're being light hearted about it though, go ahead.

Nikolas · Tue 10/01/2006 12:16:02

Oops, Matt sorry!

I didn't mean it as it sounded... You know that I enjoyed and still enjoy your music, so again for sorry as it went out. My English sometimes fail me...

I didn't even think of insulting you in anyway, and sorry if I did in the end...

(x2)

In the end, in any kind of art, anybody can have a go and be succesfull. With the term succesfull I mean something that exists.

Even if I make a game with Roger as my only sprite, I will have a sprite to use. And that's what I want! And some animation. But in the end BB, or ProgZmax will have much much much better sprites than Roger and loomious or inc. or sector or a lot of other people will have better BGs than the ones I will try to draw in MSPaint...

The same goes with music. I have to seriously doubt that most people in here will have the quality of music that Geoffkhan or mOds can produce. (I won't mention myself here... I'm modest!!!! hehe). It's always easy to do something that sucks. The thing is that in most commercial games art (music/BGs/Sprites/whatever), don't suck! And these that do suck, don't sell!

Technology progresses, and so the standards of most people...

AGS is not exactly following todays advances in art. Music maybe, since it can handle mp3 and ogg, but not in art. But I still fail to see why, an old game, or a game with poor graphics or poor music should not be comemrcial or should not sell enough, to at least cover the expenses of one person (the creator...). I mean hell, I would buy TETRIS, or PCMAN or Sokoban, or The apprentice and other games. I can spend quality time with any of these games (and other of course), and if I have a desperate need for great sound fx or CGI or anyuthing simmilar I can always visit the nearest cinema.

Helm · Tue 10/01/2006 12:35:58

QuoteAs for saying "all techno is talentless shit" or something similar... again, that's FINE. You can't say someone shouldn't think that, it's an opinion. In the same vein, they shouldn't assume that someone who IS a fan of techno/jungle/drum and bass is listening to the same stuff they've heard to give them that impression.

If someone says 'all techno is ...' then it's safe to assume he's heard of it 'all' and therefore he IS talking of the same things the fans of techno/jungle/drum and bass are listening to, amongst others. If they mean 'some techno' then they should say 'some techno is ...' Why would anyone say 'all whatever is' when they've got no full grasp of the whatever in question? Could it be because they're... stupid?

And just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean it's alright whatever it is, and that that opinion shouldn't be challenged. It's not FINE to make broad generalizations about anything really, and it's good that people don't stand for those. I can't say someone shouldn't think of that, but I can say why what's he's thinking is the product of being misinformed or ignorant.

So unless your point was 'everyone has the right to be ignorant!' (which they do, but how useful is it to point that out?) I don't understand what you're saying. Especially when you later say:

QuoteLet's not get angry at other people's perceptions, AND let's not just make full on blanket statements about things

... let's not be angry at stupid shit people say, but also, let's not say stupid shit. Yeah, that situation seems to resolve itself, to friction there, quite zen.