How large a faux pas is ripping?

[Dave Gilbert]

We're sort of missing the point here.  The original poster asked if this was a faux pas.  To answer that question - yes.  Yes it is.   KOF is a popular game, and the players will instantly know that you stole the graphics.  Ripping graphics from commercial products is generally looked down upon in adventure game circles (as evident by the responses here), so take that as you will.

[scotch]

It has become a "faux pas" because it has always indicated of a lack of effort. The few people that rip artwork usually aren't putting the work into the rest of the game either, so it's a big turn off. I don't think it would be difficult to atone for this though, and people have pointed to some games that rip and don't suck. It's not a mortal sin.

Combining things from very different games to good effect isn't easy. Most of the time I feel that the greater technical quality of ripped artwork isn't worth the bother because the characters don't match the game or the backgrounds don't evoke the right mood and dictate the puzzles. Someone with some good design sense can overcome that too. If you rip I would recommend some heavy editing of the originals to suit your purposes.

As for the legal issues, who cares? Certainly not the artists that work in the game developers, nor the money men until you cause a visible problem for them.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Yeah, I agree with scotch to a point.  Ripping typically indicates a lack of interest and effort on the part of the author, which makes the player wonder why he/she should invest interest or effort in the game.  On the other hand, you could use pre-existing artwork as a basis for your own by painting over it or editing it.  Many people have done this and it is a less-criticized activity compared to simply taking the artwork and slapping it in the game without any changes.  Also, if you're not an artist then you should still release a few games with simple graphics to establish your talents.  This will allow other people to see your strengths and then if you have a project that demands higher quality art you have a better chance of attracting team members.

[paolo]

Here's an idea. Write to the people who made KOF and ask them if you can use their graphics in your game. This is the only legitimate way to do it (copyright notices usually say something along the lines of "no copying ... without the owner's permission").

You can probably guess already what they are likely to say, and that should answer your question. It's not so much that it is a faux pas as that it is a criminal offence, as has already been pointed out. You could end up in deep doo-doo, to put it mildly.

But you never know - they might say yes, with a string of provisos (such as not using more than a certain amount, not charging for the game, ensuring that the game makes it clear that the copyright belongs to them and the backgrounds have been used with their full permission). If they do say yes, then you are free to go ahead in the knowledge that you are acting within the law, but my view is that they are pretty likely to say no.

By the way, I agree with the people who say "draw your own and your game will be better for it". Either draw your own or, if you are crap at drawing, collaborate (as I do) with someone who is good at it. The effort will shine through and make for a much better game in the long run.

[loominous]

I think there are some peculiarities in some of these arguments.

'It's about effort'

so

'it's not ok to use someone else's art'

but

'if you don't feel like making the effort, have someone else do it for you'

-

The 'make some adjustments to it, and it's ok' argument actually bugs me much more than rips, which I don't have a problem with as long as they're properly credited.

There's hardly a popular movie these days that doesn't contain a clear rip from a music album. The only difference here is that some executive said 'fine'.

Thing is, nobody attributes those tracks to the screenplay writer or director; they've simply used someone else's effort to add a little something to their own. We don't applaud the movie makers for the amazing track, just their taste to include it.

What bugs me is when someone 'rips' the effort of someone else, change it slightly, and call it their own. A rip is a quote, with the quotation marks often visible. Altered rips are disguised quotes aimed to make the utterer appear smarter.

[Andail]

I think what annoys people most is when newcomers start their AGS careers by asking where and how they can rip stuff. It just feels a bit nonchalant and effortless.

As people here have pointed out; making a game good isn't easier just because you borrow graphics. That's like saying matte painting isn't hard to do because you use pre-existing material.

If someone ever puts together an entire functional entertaining game with ripped graphics I don't think people will have any gripes with that, as long as the original creators are properly credited. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of games like that. Most games using borrowed material are short and bad, their rips blatant and misplaced and they don't have anything original added.

I'm quite sure 99% of those wanting to rip graphics do it out of laziness and not in pursuit of an interesting artistic touch.

[Babar]

I tried (and maybe still am ) making an absurdist parody game using QfG/KQ style Sierra backgrounds. The problem is that it is very hard to get exactly what you want, you have to remove certain elements from the background that you don't wish to include, add a few more that you want, and if you can't find what you want, you'd have to recreate it in that style, and seamlessly connect them together so that the differences are not jarring.

Unless you are very, very, very lucky to get exactly what you want, I'd say it is pretty foolish to think that 'ripping' would take less effort than creating your own graphics.

[blueskirt]

For the whole legal aspect, I don't see any problem with ripping. 8Bit Theater use sprites from FF1, there's kids who use Mario, Luigi or Mega Man sprites to create flash movies on Newgrounds, there's people who make flash video clip out of real songs without asking for permission, AGDI used Graham's sprites from KQ5 for their remakes, Ready Starring Ready Eddie was pure genius, ProgZ used actual songs for Dance 'Til You Drop... We don't make such a big fuzz about it when games use existing songs and musics instead of having an original soundtrack, I don't see why it should be a problem on the legality side to use ripped graphics for an AGS game. As long you don't rip another AGSer's work, you don't make profit off your game and you don't expect an AGS award for best graphics and best soundtrack with your ripped stuff, I say you can do it.

That being said, my personal opinion regarding ripped graphics, graphics in general and my appreciation of the effort put into them can be shortened to this:
Good original graphics > Average original graphics > Bad original graphics > Graphics made of copy/pasted ripped graphics > Ripped graphics > Inconsistant graphics

And generally ripped graphics fall in the inconsistant graphic category with 2D, 3D and clip arts overlapping, characters from different graphical styles meeting each others, walking in the SCUMM bar in one screen and a bad original background in the next screen... things to give my eyes headaches.

The sole exception I make to this rule is with fangames and remakes using a few sprites and background from the original game, as long the ripped graphic is consistant with the fanmade graphics, I won't mind.

If one has troubles drawing animations, like Atakosh said, one just have to keep the animations cartoony and as simple as possible and call it a style, not unlike the Wink series on Newgrounds. For the backgrounds, there's always the Pleurghburg Dark Ages' graphical style which in my opinion has the best ratio between Difficulty To Draw and Good Look.

[Radiant]

Here's an idea. Write to the people who made KOF and ask them if you can use their graphics in your game. This is the only legitimate way to do it (copyright notices usually say something along the lines of "no copying ... without the owner's permission").

Here's a better idea - ask the copyright owner. Usually, the hard-working programmers and artists don't own the copyright to their own work, but the publishing company (and their lawyers) do. That is the only legitimate way to do it. Yes, there are several authors that are not allowed to make a sequel to their own work.

And indeed, companies will tend to say "no". Although e.g. Vivendi has been known to greenlight certain games such as KQ9 (The Silver Lining).

There's hardly a popular movie these days that doesn't contain a clear rip from a music album. The only difference here is that some executive said 'fine'.

Yes, but in nearly all those cases, the movie producers paid for that privilege. And you're wrong in that they don't get accredited, because they usually do (that's why movie credit sequences can last up to ten minutes).

For the whole legal aspect, I don't see any problem with ripping.

Well, I'd hate to say this, but you should read this thread again, because you're just plain entirely wrong. From the legal aspect, there are many problems with ripping, as pointed out again and again. Yes, legally speaking, ripping is illegal.

To point out a few things you've missed - 8-Bit Theater is a legitimate work of parody; AGDI actually has permission from Vivendi to use their material in their remakes, and actually got rewards for best graphics in spite of that; and so forth.

Just because people can get away with it, and because it is "okay with you" doesn't mean that it is legal.

[loominous]

There's hardly a popular movie these days that doesn't contain a clear rip from a music album. The only difference here is that some executive said 'fine'.

Yes, but in nearly all those cases, the movie producers paid for that privilege. And you're wrong in that they don't get accredited, because they usually do (that's why movie credit sequences can last up to ten minutes).

The executives say 'fine' because it's followed by their monetary demand. Course they're not giving it away for free. And where the devil did I say they don't give credit? Course they do.

Edit: some corrupt sentence

[blueskirt]

Well, I'd hate to say this, but you should read this thread again, because you're just plain entirely wrong. From the legal aspect, there are many problems with ripping, as pointed out again and again. Yes, legally speaking, ripping is illegal.

My bad. I should have wrote "For the whole legal moral aspect, I don't see any problem with ripping." So to clarify:
Is it illegal? Yes.
Is it morally wrong? It's debatable. It's a matter of case by case for me, for KOF sprites, as long credits are given where due and as long no profits are made, I don't think it's wrong.
Can they take legal actions? Yes.
Will they? Unless if you try to make money from it, unless if they feel your work threaten their reputation, profits, or their their work in term of quality, that's pretty unlikely.

AGDI actually has permission from Vivendi to use their material in their remakes

As far as I know, KQ1VGA was released with KQ5 sprites before the whole contract and legal deal happened with Vivendi.

and actually got rewards for best graphics in spite of that; and so forth.

And we can both agree that if they won for best graphic it was because there was a real effort put in them. As for the best animation award, it wasn't the KQ5 Graham walking animations that won that award but the dozens of other original animations the game featured.

[mkennedy]

If you're doing a fan game or a parody then I feel that using ripped sprites is okay, Though I'm not sure how others feel.
There are some fan made Monkey Island games out there using ripped sprites I believe. If however you are making an original game then I'd advise against using ripped sprites. Then there's always the issue of copyright and I'd imagine that using ripped sprites would increase the likelyhood of being issued a "cease and desist" order.

[JimmyD]

Folowing on from what seems to be the general consensus, I'd agree that unless it's a fan game of something else, it would be a much better idea to make one's own graphics. It's not that hard, and even an MSPaint drawing, if appropriate, can make a decent backdrop!

[quixotecoyote]

Since this has come to the top again, I'll make a couple points.

1. There are no KoF graphics in my game.  Not a biggie, but I wanted to clear that up.  I had mixed up which games I used as source material and had since gone back and straightened it out.  I think I said that right before I disappeared for a bit.

2. This is not a game intended primarily for mass distribution.  If anyone is curious about it I could maybe send them a copy and I was curious if putting a thread up here with it would be appreciated. So really, as far as this game goes I'm doing whatever I want with it.

3. It's about 1/5 done already and I'm not going to redo that much design now, considering the amount of time it took to edit and animate the graphics I used.

4. If I've still got the desire to do another game after this one, I'll probably do my own graphics, because I agree that the options are limited and the disjunct of styles, while manageable, is still suboptimal.

5. People who think this is illegal really need to look up US Fair Use Doctrine as eerything else aside, this is transformative.

6. Everything used is credited.


Nothing too important, just popped in for a tech question and saw this had floated back up.

[EldKatt]

We don't make such a big fuzz about it when games use existing songs and musics instead of having an original soundtrack, I don't see why it should be a problem on the legality side to use ripped graphics for an AGS game.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I think we should make just a big a fuzz about music as we would about graphics, because it's really the same thing (illegal and lazy), but for some reason we don't. I could speculate about why, but I won't.