How to limit yourself?

[Babar]

I have a problem. I cannot finish my projects. I come up with enormous ideas, connect them all together, create enormous game design plans (and even actually complete the design for every single thing in the game), but am then unable to complete making the game.

So I thought, why not make a smaller game? Sounds like a good idea, but it is impossible for me. I start out with the basic story, little elements in it then give me big ideas, I think "why not add this? and this? and this?", until the game is huge. Then if I leave those elements out, it feels like I am restricting and worsening the game somehow.

For example, my one succesfully completed game, "Alien Time Zone", had most of the graphics, music and sound taken from elsewhere, had a grand total of 12 rooms (inclusive of all intro, outro, menu screens), and despite all that took me almost my whole summer to make. It was the only story I could think of that actually limitted itself in that you don't travel from room to room in space, but in time. Even then, I had zillions of different "times" I wanted to add.

However, all games cannot be made like that. Another example. One of my first AGS game ideas (that never got off the design stage) involved a rather RPGish story involving a group of "tribes" in a fantasy world. I got so caught up in making legends and histories for the world and connecting them to the story, that it was never finished.

Ok, then how about a not-so-fantasy world type story? Tried that too. Random little kid in the city who wants to do something incredible. I still ended up making a history and "current events perspective" for the game so large that it never got past the "few BG sketches stage". Even without the history, I tried adding a zillion "good ideas" that could be in a city, a zillion personalities that I happen to want to see in existance, etc.

Ok, then what about a completely new city? Sounds too suspicious. Why is it completely new? What was it before? etc, etc.

Sure, I could make a non-serious game, (and I have tried), but they need backgrounds too. And again, all those "elements" that you think of adding, that would be incredible, advance the gameplay, rock the story on and shit, that would never allow the project to finish, but you don't have the heart to cut out.

So help me! What should I do? How should I limit myself? Or what kind of a story limits itself? Fellow trapped in a room needs to escape? Why? How? Where? Overdone.

[passer-by]

Write a short book, a novel or something. It's not necessary to publish it, but it will work wonders with the swirl in your head.

edit
This book is for the discarded ideas that you just cherish too much to abandon and they'd ruin your game if you didn't.

[Kinoko]

I didn't have this problem wit Cirque. I came up with where I wanted the story to start and finish and that was it. I only wrote in what went in the middle.

I, however, have that problem now with Gift of Aldora. I've made a game, I know how to use AGS, and now I'm ambitious. The project was ambitious at the start but the longer I work on it (heck, it's been a year already!), the more unsatisfied I am with it and I keep having ideas I want to add in.

There's a lot I've managed to get over though, just by being strict with myself. I say, "It's never gonna be perfect, and you don't want it to take 15 years. Just decide on a general limit, and don't extent beyond that limit". So that's what I've done, really. I've just accepted it would be too much work to keep adding, so I'm throwing those ideas in the "ideas for the sequel" pile (whether or not I make a sequel is irrelevant. The thought of doing so helps me limit my work for the game I'm currently workig on so tha's good enough). I think it also helps to have a realistic goal to aim for in terms of how long the project will take you. Then you can work out how long each "part" of the game will take to make, roughly... and stick to it as best you can.

[ManicMatt]

Cique, now there's a game on my hard drive that didn't get deleted after I finished it!

With my current game, I thought up of a basic premise for a story, and made it up as I went along. Then suddenly while I was making it the story just popped into my head! I wrote it all down and then trimmed it like people do for TV programs, to fit it all in the time slot.

My character was going to find a photo, and go to the (woah nose bleed!) ....and go to the library to research it to find another location. That idea meant a whole new location - the library. So, I just stuck the address of the new location on the back of the photo. Hey presto!

I worry that I might one day give up on my game and start anew, it's a problem I had drawing comic books as a kid. Mind you, I always finished making my music albums, so maybe I'll be okay.

[Nikolas]

I'm not sure if the problem is to limit yourself, like stop adding things up, but to limit yourself time-wise maybe.

I mean try to put deadlines to what you do. Organise. This always helps.

Fix the core of the story (fellow trapped, escapes, goes meet princess, finds out it was the princess that lock him up in the first place, kills princess, and makes out with the prince! THE END). Here is a nice game.

Next work on the BGs you're going to use. The prison cell, outside the prison cell, the above floor, the guards barraccs and so on. Along with that start fixxxing the puzzles, or if you already have puzzles work on them to make the rooms. Maybe make a map. Like the very old fashioned text adventure maps. you have:
Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã, ROOM2
Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  ^
Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã, l
ROOM4<->ROOM1->ROOM2->ROOM7.

Something like that.

Make notes to this map. For example ROOM1 (The prison cell. the character with 5 HTP.) or ROOM7 (the secret fuck hole of the prince. You find him naked. You make out. <-cutscene2!)

And stick to your notes.

It's always nice to be creative but it is important to keep deadlines. When you are paid to do something (for example me, as a composer), I don't have the luxoury to say:" Oh, you know insted of a 3 minute work, I decided to do a Symphony 45 minutes long. But you will have to wai another year and a half to complete it!".

Find outside factors to limit yourself. Make dreams. There are indie game communities that have festivals and all. Even if your game is crap, you can't know that until you've gone a long way. Strive to take part in a festival of some kind, or the release something thingy, a very good idea by Kinoko, or the AGS Awards (which gives you more or less a years time to do something!) Work with other people. Form some kind of team. You had mOds on the Alien time Zone, didn't you. He must have pushed you to complete it, didn't he? I mean when you have other people working with/for you, it is always embarishing to let them down.

My own example:

I have the story ready (95% of the story). I know 60% of the puzzles. I can fix all the music (no problem here). I have Rui and esper backing me up on the scripting process. I have only one room ready! I can't draw! It's imposible. The idea came on me on Summer and from then up to now (that's almost half a year), I've done a GUI, which I don't really like, and the first level. But I have completed the Manual of the game .

In this case I have a hurdle to overcome. The graphics. And the lack of time. Cause if I had time I would probably sit down and learn something, or if I had money I would buy a tablet, which would help my graphic skills (which are not awfull, but terribly out of date). The best idea though, would be to pass this task to somebody else. And BTW, this game is not ready for production thread. Unless I have some sort of demo ready there will be nothing in the production thread,

*Nikolas rereads what he wrote*

WOW. Blimey! That's a lot! Once again! I think me and esper love the long posts. Well.. I hope it was helpfull at least.

[passer-by]

I can't draw! It's imposible. The idea came on me on Summer and from then up to now (that's almost half a year), I've done a GUI, which I don't really like, and the first level. But I have completed the Manual of the game

Take photos, convert them to 256 or whatever suits your game, add photos of inventory items....At least the perspective and dimensions will be correct...

[self awareness]...cp considers with interest the mobile phone with camera at the corner of the table...[/self awareness]

[Nikolas]

I did think about that, honestly. Thank you.

[ildu]

Babar, I have exactly the same problem as you. I know have a folder on my comp where all my project folders are located. Currently, there are seven projects. One or two of them are quite crappy ideas and I haven't done a lot of work on them. The others I find to be great ideas and I really want to work on them.

When I first came to these forums I started a noir game. I worked on it a lot, and I have many backgrounds and characters. But I was developing as an artist and one day I realized that the backgrounds weren't up to par with my skills anymore. The characters still look good, but I've come to realize what I already knew in the beginning; they would be really difficult to animate. So when I started I set up a deadline for a demo, the beginning sequence of the game. I thought to myself, "If I get this done, I'll be happy and the rest will be bonus." I had all the inventory items, dialog, characters and puzzles done for the demo. I just got stuck with the backgrounds (of which half were already done) and the animations for the characters. The production folder now is around 2,5 gigabytes in size.

My second project was meant to be a really small one, and it was to be done as a training project for ags. I had everything mapped out. I had stickiee doing the dialog, I finished my inventory items in a day or two, but again I got stumped with the backgrounds. So I never finished it.

Another project I have is this sam&maxy swamp thing. I have one background done, two characters and two cartoony 3d models of a swamp boat and a greyhound bus. It went well, until I started to plan too much. Suddenly there were some 15 locations and a lot of characters, which I knew was out of my range. So I scrapped it.

Then there's the one I'm working on now. It's suspiciously similar to the swamp game and it actually spawned from the bed&breakfast background blitz we had a week or two ago. I've got some structure done, but not much else. I got an assignment from school to do a bunch of storyboards about something, so I've actually storyboarded the intro sequence. Hopefully, I can get the first part done. I'm not able to construct the story for the whole game right now, and I'm stumped since I don't know what to include in the backgrounds, other than the objects needed for the first part.

So my point is that you're not alone. I tend to get an idea and I keep feeding that idea until it becomes this massive undergoing. I sometimes go back to my existing projects, but I'm usually fed up with the earlier story/graphics/theme so I find my earlier work to be redundant. I just need to get my act together. I guess keeping a production plan, a schedule, other people in the team and thinking realistically will help, but for me they haven't yet worked.

[ManicMatt]

"[self awareness]...cp considers with interest the mobile phone with camera at the corner of the table...[/self awareness]"

Hey! That's what my next project is! That is, using photos taken with my mobile phone! (But not modifying the photos unless needs be)

It makes it piss easy to make a game when you don't need to draw anything! (For me, it's gonna be like a breather after finishing my current game, before moving on to a more cartoony drawn game)

[MrColossal]

Participate in the next OROW, that'll learn ya. You can't go grand epic because it's just 1 room and just 1 week.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Usually you can tell within the first week of development where your project is going; that is, what the scope is going to be and whether you can keep it on task or not.  With Mind's Eye I started around a simple premise- a man's search for his own identity- which quickly grew into a larger game than I was prepared to make by myself.  The logical solution was to rewrite the story to make it fit into the time constraints, which works since I was handling all the facets of the design.  There are situations where this won't work as well, where the story genuinely suffers.  That's why I put Darkmoor Manor on hold, since I'm not prepared to handle backgrounds and sprites and music and coding for a game which I fully intend to be commercial quality all around.  When/if I find a talented background artist willing to commit to the project I'll resume development, but until then I just work on smaller ideas that I can manage alone.  The trick isn't so much about knowing your limits as being willing and able to rescale a game as needed to get it complete rather than sitting on your hard drive half finished forever.

Tips on resizing your story:

Eliminate all non-pertinent characters if necessary

Only include backgrounds necessary to the game

Only create puzzles that enhance the game, do not create muddled inventory full situations and tons of pointless puzzles to create artificial depth.  It's annoying.

Consider what absolutely needs to be in the game for it to be complete.  This is where you consider only the essentials the player has to have to play through the game, not your artistic need to enlighten them about backstory. 

When you go through all of these you'll find that the scope of the story is considerably smaller.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Hmm...

It seems as though many of us other adventure game development communities have that same problem. I can only really speak for the SLUDGE community, but I'd wager that the reason there are so few finished games (Cubert Badbone, Out of Order, and Nathan's Second Chance... see, I can count them all on one hand!) is because our engine tends to attract a larger percentage of ambitious perfectionists than AGS does. There's Bad Timing, which is HUGE by the looks of things, has been in development for ages, but is still being worked on. We've also got a guy who's making an even HUGER game, and apparently includes all of Plato's Dialogues (or something), and he doesn't even expect to release his game in full until 2010 or so, even after steadily working on it. And then there's the game I'm making, which I've originally planned as ambitious enough to make money off of (after all, I've got multiple story paths and a handful of minigames), but has since been whittled down somewhat and is definitely going to be freeware.

The point I'm trying to get at is that, well, if you're that ambitious, then obviously it'll take a long time to make a game. Two to three years on average, by the looks of things. So, it's okay to spend a whole summer making a game, and it's okay for it to have more than fifteen rooms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here in AGS Land, there seems to be an overwhelming desire to make lots and lots of small games rather than working really really hard on big games. That's all well and good, mind you, since it gives AGS a LOT more visibility than the other engines, but it does also seem as though there's a disproportionate number of games with a campy, amateurish feel to them (not that that's a BAD thing). What I'm saying is that it's okay to not want to write a smaller game. Write a big game. Make it the best game you can possibly make.

The trick in doing this is to come up with an idea that you like SO MUCH that you'll never get tired of it. It's hard, yes, but it's possible. And if the work you've done on a game isn't your best work, it's okay to scrap it and start all over again. I did that with Cubert Badbone, because truly, I can't stand continuing to work on something I'm not proud of. And I finished it, and by the time I did, it was perfect, I was satisfied, and even though I only had one game to my name after years in the AD scene, it gained widespread recognition. I still get e-mails to this day from people telling me how much they enjoyed Cubert, and it's over three years old.

(By the way, by "big game", I don't necessarily mean "long game". A big game could take only half an hour to complete, and yet take a long time to finish making because it has really time-consuming graphics and music, as well as complex puzzles.)

[Nikolas]

Yes, but there is always a simple problem that one must face: The sheer fact that most of the times he can't handle all aspects of the game alone. I mean it is rather rare to be able to take care all aspects of a game, in a non amatuerish way, all by yourself. I don't know if this is what you did with your game, but still I cannot expect anyone to be able to handle graphics and music at the same time, in a "quality" leve, but also be able to script and write stories and come up with puzzles.

Then there is the problem that most of the members do this in their spare time. Which does create some problems. Mainly real life. I would love to be able to devote myself in a game I have in mind but alas, family, financial matters, PhD and Christmas time (Yey!) does not permit this to happen.

And it is funny: I was going to say that it takes determination to do something like that, and I don't have determination, but then I thought that I have never quit a music project and further I have never been late. So there must be something more than determination. Of course my training as a composer allows me to be able to do that, where my lack of everything in the graphics department don't...

[passer-by]

it's okay to not want to write a smaller game. Write a big game. Make it the best game you can possibly make.

I dare to say that I've seen small free games that are of equal quality to the ones I pay for. If you can produce a quality big game, then it is a sin not to try. It depends on how much time you are able and willing to sacrifice for this project. If you devote more time than real life issues allow you, then the game should go commercial and then it would have to be a really good game. And there must be a reason I 'm not working in professional game development...

On the other hand, this would limit game making and make it accessible only to professionals, or people with adequate professional support. Have you ever considered amateur game making as a way to use some of the brainpower and energy that would otherwise get wasted in real life?

[Squinky]

I made Pirate Fry 1 in a month, it was my first game, and the inspiration flowed. I think a lot of my motivation back then was just being able to make a damned game. Pirate Fry two took over 2 years, I re-wrote, restarted, and re-did it to death.

I made a bunch of Demonslayer games, some good, some bad.

I will say though, that Pirate Fry 3 is my favorite game I have made, as lame as it is. I made it in about 3 weeks. It contains only 9 rooms....thats it. I used ripped sprites that I painted over, and by limiting the backgrounds (doing more with them) I got to focus on scripting (which I prefer over background making) and story. I now am hooked on smaller, more well made games....

I don't know how all this helps this topic, I had more, but I guess I have to go set up my Christmas tree....which I hate..yay!

[RocketGirl]

Honestly, I think limiting yourself is only necessary until you have a few successes under your belt, while you're still learning. After that, ambition is lovely while patience and perseverence are your most handy tools. You have to stick with it and not give up, even if it seems to be taking forever. If you're like me, where your interests and ambitions can change with the tide, this can be especialyl challenging, I know, but there's nothing to do but keep with it anyway. There's no magic wand for that; you have to have willpower.

For example, I've been working on an all-CG Star Wars fan film since 2002. I wrote the script--30 pages--and started modeling in 2003, and didn't start actually animating until late that year. I'm still working on it, have about 20 minutes of animatics and only four finalized shots...but it's looking awesome and I'm loving it...even though I'm hungry to start on my AGS project (and kind of have; I've built and animated the main character already).

But, darn it, I'm going to finish. It's so far along and looking so nifty, and I've had so much help from other people that I don't want to let down or let their work go to waste...I can't stop now!

And that's the only attitude that'll finish an ambitious project.

[ManicMatt]

Yes....! That's my problem! Whenever I start making something I think of something even better and the temptation is to ditch the current stuff and go on to the new! But then I'll never get anything done...

[Nikolas]

I might have mentioned it in the previous post, but it is weird as I have never had blocks like these while writting music. It is my major! And although I've written big staff (two works of symphony orchestras, around 15 minutes of duratio and 70 pages of score...) I finished them quite quickly and actually recorded the first one (with Midi and Samples...). But I sticked to them and not gave up... At least for the first one, which I had in my head for two and a half years...

Maybe we self "cencore" our selfs when it comes to things that we are not so sure about.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

I suppose I should clarify: I didn't intend to say that making a big game was better than making a little game; I just wanted to say that if you DON'T want to make a small game, you don't necessarily have to... if you have the perseverence, time, and energy to make a big game, that is.

Personally, after I'm done the game I'm currently working on, I hope to do some much smaller projects. I'm becoming busier and busier, after all.

Yes, but there is always a simple problem that one must face: The sheer fact that most of the times he can't handle all aspects of the game alone. I mean it is rather rare to be able to take care all aspects of a game, in a non amatuerish way, all by yourself. I don't know if this is what you did with your game, but still I cannot expect anyone to be able to handle graphics and music at the same time, in a "quality" leve, but also be able to script and write stories and come up with puzzles.

Depends on your definition of "quality". To me, it means "the absolute best you can do". My graphics and music certainly don't rival that of, say, CMI, but they don't look like crap, either.

I dare to say that I've seen small free games that are of equal quality to the ones I pay for. If you can produce a quality big game, then it is a sin not to try. It depends on how much time you are able and willing to sacrifice for this project. If you devote more time than real life issues allow you, then the game should go commercial and then it would have to be a really good game. And there must be a reason I 'm not working in professional game development...

On the other hand, this would limit game making and make it accessible only to professionals, or people with adequate professional support. Have you ever considered amateur game making as a way to use some of the brainpower and energy that would otherwise get wasted in real life?

I do, actually. I plan on working professionally in the game industry not too far in the future. However, the way it is structured right now, when a game is made, it's a bunch of specialists doing one specific thing, rather than having one or two people do a little bit of everything. I'm in the process of getting my computer science degree; therefore, when I'm working in the industry, I'll mainly be writing code. I like writing code and all, but I also like to make up stories, draw, and write music as a hobby. Amateur adventure game development is my avenue for combining these interests in a way that I'd never be able to in a professional setting... at least not until I've had several years of experience and made my way up to more than an entry-level position, that is.

I don't mean to say that all games should be made at a professional level. I do mean to say that everyone should aspire to make the best game they possibly can. Of course, that also means knowing one's limits. Still, it also doesn't mean limiting oneself for the sake of limiting oneself.

[MrColossal]

Just to pop in and say:

At the company I work now, I'm a 2d/3d artist and I make level art and then when the tiles are done I put the levels together as per the designer's needs. I can also do animations if I wanted. Also, I've been there for almost 2 months and I started out as lead artist... But that's mostly because making a GBA game takes very few people.

The designers design levels and write code to support parts of the levels they want to design [say... proximity censors] and the lead designer writes everything, the story, the level progression and everything... And also writes code. 2 people I know started as artists and are now designers so...

There are 6 - 7 people working on the game I'm working on now and everyone has multiple jobs, so don't be afraid Deirdra, you'd get to use all your talents! But again, this could just be the company I work for! So move to Troy, NY!

Eric