Supposing you were close to completing your first AGS game and looked up for a few minutes to compare it with other people's offerings
- and realized you really should have learned the basics of graphic design first, or at least come up with a coherent story...
Would you go ahead and release it anyway? Would you announce it on the Games Completed thread? Or would you bury it and start again from scratch?
I am interested in both sides of this, and any positions in between - supported by reasoning, obviously.
(And remember, we are considering if this was YOUR game; I'm admitting to nothing!)
I'd release it anyway, learn from my mistakes and continue on with the next project.
It's arguable that not releasing it will save your reputation but several of the more successful game makers here had a really bad first game so I dont think that stands up to scrutiny.
Absolutely.
Release it and get feedback. Without constructive criticism, how are you going to improve?
I do not know if I would be brave enough to publish it in the completed thread and database when I had serious doubts and would be ashamed of one or more aspects that I am unable to change currently.
But no beginner has been lynched so far - as I am aware of ;) and if you want to go on in game making and learn more about it to improve - it seems to be the best place to release it here.
Since your hypothetically question was about what I would do:
Personally I am not that brave - so I would probably publish it at least in the critics thread (not in the database)
and ask for feedback over there (roll)
Or a third option: since you think your game can be improved, why don't you improve it? You can post it in the games in production forum and work on getting better graphics and plot. The way AGS works, you can replace parts of a game (e.g. a background) without affecting other parts (e.g. the script).
I think I once read Yahtzee advising people not to release their first game, just to move on and do something better. As it happens, I didn't release my first game. I nearly finished it, then decided not to complete/release it and I don't feel bad about it.
But you should definitely get feedback of some people, even if you're not going to officially release it. Parts of it may be both better and worse than you think.
Hell, if you can even finish your first game, that's no small accomplishment there.
Releasing something is the best way to move on. And for anyone who wishes to improve themselves moving on is quite important. Also, judging from my limited experience with releasing games and my vast experience of not releasing(or even finishing) them - it's much more fulfilling and fun to release them, even when you have strong reservations about their quality (which is always).
So, yeah, release. Unless it's really, really, extraordinarily bad and will ruin the lives of millions. Unless it's another Call of Duty*, basically.
* This sentence is meant for comedic purposes only. I'm sure CoD:Whatever is a perfectly fine game and haven't ruined any lives whatsoever. My lawyer made me write this.
I would release it.
Like others have stated, you can learn from peoples opinions a good bit. Andail is right about taking the time to improve it, but for me that can end up being a trap. It's really easy to get stuck on reworking a game (I've done it many times, and it is probably why I stopped making games).
So yeah, release it. Get feedback, then tackle a whole new project with the knowledge you gained.
Quote from: Ali on Sun 18/11/2012 12:26:01
I think I once read Yahtzee advising people not to release their first game, just to move on and do something better.
I don't agree. If this was the case, I would have never released Sheep Quest (I do not count the room with a key object made in AGS 2.x to test the engine as a first game).
Has your game been tested by someone already? Every game should be tested before release. So why not post in the Recruitment board and ask for testers? They can give you honest feedback if your game should be released or not.
EVERYONE thinks their game is crap when it's finished. :) Just release it. The feedback will be invaluable.
I would probably release it too, if it is basically finished.
I had a few "first" games that I started over the years but realised they were rubbish half way through and gave up on. The one game I actually did release is rubbish, in that it looks like an idiot child drew it, has little to no story and some quite simple design errors. However, I did actually finish it and no one really looks down on me for releasing it (at least not more than they did already...!).
If you can improve it, then do it, but by the time my game was "ready" I was just mentally finished with it and although I could certainly have done better, I didn't have the motivation to spend more time on something that wasn't that good. However, it did motivate me to do better in future and although I haven't released anything else yet, I do have something else in the fairly early stages which will be much better (if I ever get the time to actually do it) than my first game, although that may not be saying much. I learnt a lot from it. I don't think there are many people who can make a brilliant game on their first try anyway. Better to have something released, even if it isn't great.
It seems that the majority are in favour of releasing a bad first game as a learning experience, but only after having it play tested.
Incidentally I'm looking for a couple of people to play test my first game; see the recruitment thread: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=47102.0
I tend to give up quite early on a lot of projects, so getting all the way to the end. I've also gotten rave reviews of things that, in retrospect, seem to me like they could/should have done with a great deal of improvement. Building the games is in itself a developmental learning experience!
Quote from: Intense Degree on Mon 19/11/2012 16:05:53
The one game I actually did release is rubbish..
I actually really enjoyed Colin Simpson Leaves Employment, so would hardly call it rubbish.
It seems a lot of people are averse to releasing their first game, but there are 2 points I'd like to make:
1) If your game is crap, and you don't release it, how do you learn from your mistakes? You have a huge resource of players here and a fair few decent game developers who will be able to tell you exactly what works and what doesn't in your game and how to improve. Otherwise, your second game will be crap, and your third and your fourth etc etc
2) By releasing a game, you've already done something about 90% of people on the forum haven't done yet, some of them who've been here years... (roll)
I'd finish your game, ask for feedback from testers in the Recruitment forum (or ask for feedback in critics lounge), repolish, reintroduce to testers / critics and release.
We all start somewhere. My first (and last) AGS Game broke all the rules in the GiP forum, was awful and I never even finished it http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=16295.msg199895#msg199895
Thankfully I lost the source to that tragedy and can move on to my proper first crappy game :-D
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 19/11/2012 15:26:53
EVERYONE thinks their game is crap when it's finished. :)
This is surprisingly true: whenever you look at it you see all the mistakes and missed opportunities instead of the good points. If it were my game I'd putter at it, trying to make improvements, until I couldn't stand the sight of it any more. That's when you know it's release time. ;)
Quote from: Ali on Sun 18/11/2012 12:26:01
I think I once read Yahtzee advising people not to release their first game, just to move on and do something better.
This is just dumb. You've spent countless hours on coding and drawing your game, and it's supposed to just sit and gather dust on your hard drive, because it happens to be your
first?
If you're such a perfectionist that you can't stand seeing a game out there with your name on it even though it's not super-polished, then chances are you're never gonna finish a game ever.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 22/11/2012 10:30:07
If you're such a perfectionist that you can't stand seeing a game out there with your name on it even though it's not super-polished, then chances are you're never gonna finish a game ever.
scotch syndrome, as it's otherwise known.
It depends what you want to achieve with it. If you want to use it as a learning experience, release it. When you make your second game, you'll see how much you've improved.
If you want to work on this game more, release this as a beta version so that both you and others will be able to see the difference when you've released the updated version.
Reach for perfection, but don't hide in shame if you don't manage to achieve it first time round - no-one does that! Even in games I really love there's probably something I wish they'd done differently - and the designers too - but that doesn't make them bad games.
If you're going to compare your first games to other peoples' games, perhaps you should restrict this to comparing it to other people's FIRST games - you might be surprised how well yours compared! :-D
I totally agree with Dave Gilbert. You may be the last person that could truly appreciate your game. And as ddq wrote it is no mean feat to complete a game. Go for it.
I don't know how much effort you put into it and how relieved you felt when you finally finished it, but, personally, I couldn't believe myself for having been able to complete my own and having something to show the world (yeah, I only made one and fate prevented me from working on a perennial next...).
So, yeah, go for it.
I would still release it.
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 19/11/2012 15:26:53
EVERYONE thinks their game is crap when it's finished. :) Just release it. The feedback will be invaluable.
I think this is pretty damn near universal. Why? Tim Schafer and the Two Guys from Andromeda have done commentaries of their past games as part of their Kickstarter promotions and were highly critical. If legends of the industry aren't satisfied, what chance do the rest of us have?
I just want to make two further comments on this:
Don't compare your first game to Ratracer's first (and only) game - The Uncertainty Machine would probably still make my top ten AGS games of all time.
Secondly, having had the opportunity to actually play Hernald's game, I say absolutely release it! Sure the graphics aren't mind-blowing but this is a very enjoyable game with some well thought-out puzzles (usually fairly easy, but still well implemented) with quite a bit of variety, good writing, few typos, and no game-stopping bugs (that I've found). Many people would have happy to produce this as their third or fourth game, let alone first.
They way I see it, a game is like any work of art.
Writing a book, making a move, acting on a stage, whatever you do, there's always a risk involved. There's risk that people will laugh, throw sharp object or just be indifferent. In my opinion, that's what makes it worth it! It's a kick equal to bungie jumping (not that i've tried it) or paragliding(haven't done that either)! When you put your creation out there it's like exposing you throat to hungry dogs. But 99 % of the dogs are small, nice dogs and just lick you in your face. The rest are stupid ones and should be ignored.
And very few artist are content with what they've created. Which is good, since it shows that their want to create hasn't gone away.
Yaddi, yaddi, lots of talk, but I say release it. I know I will when, if, I'm done. And then, perhaps, I will make another and then another until I don't enjoy it anymore. But I like the exposing, and I like being afraid, but still doing it. It proves that I'm stronger then my fear.
"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." - Shigeru Miyamoto
Really, if you can realistically improve your game before releasing it, do so. If you can't, release it. However, don't NOT release it. A game never released is just time and effort wasted. Even if you only did it to get feedback on how to improve, you will still get something out of it.
Release it, Get feed back, Improve.
AGSERS don't expect AAA titles 90% of people here are learning too :P
My first game was crap, but I like to look back on the project and think "wow, I definitely could do better" and so I try to do so.
Like a lotta people mentioned you learn/ improve from feedback.
Thats going to be one game under your belt, let's be honest, it's a nice feeling to see the numbers pile up.