Independent Adventuring column back on-line

[Jozef]

modgeulator: You are right that sometimes I came across as harsh.Ã,  I've been trying to limit this by always editing my columns.Ã,  The way it works for me is to write a column, print it out, let it sit for a day or two, editi it by hand, rewrite it, print it out again, and so on, until I'm happy with it.Ã,  With the June to Dec. column each printout was 27 pages long (double-spaced), and it took me nearly two weeks to edit it to a form I liked.Ã,  You should see my first version of the column; it would make even Mother Theresa want to kill me.

I know that's no excuse for being harsh even in my final version, but my thinking is this: I love playing adventure games, and I love independent adventures.Ã,  However, if I praised things I personally didn't like or if I said something like "It's okay; next time you'll get better", I doubt I'd see progress in future games.Ã,  In addition, the column is aimed primarily at the general gaming population, and I would like to direct their attention to the best games in the niche, in order to increase its credibility.Ã,  I will try to sound less harsh, but I will still strive to highlight the better games at the expense of the worse ones.

Mordalles: You have the full right to criticize my columns, and I appreciate it.Ã,  Let me just say that I may be a little of an anomaly in here: I'm already turning gray, and my thinking may be a little different from others'.Ã,  Consider me as the lowest common denominator among older gamers, who tries to describe the games to my peer group, and you'll see how consistent I am

Afflict: I appreciate the suggestion to have other writers help me.Ã,  However, in real life I'm currently managing a startup of six people, which is currently seeing anywhere between 10 and 20 venture capitalists each month, and the last thing I can do right now is to coordinate with somebody in another project.Ã,  That said, though, if anyone wants to write about independent adventuring, I'd be very happy to host them in this blog.Ã,  I hope to make the monthly columns to be only a small part of the texts there.

Helm: As for the OROW issue: There are OROW games that stand on their own, such as Anna, Into the Light and Sheet: The Art of Art.Ã,  I also praised the vast majority of the other OROW games.Ã,  However, that's beside the point.Ã,  As I said previously, I expect people outside this community to read the columns and download games based on my recommendations.Ã,  These people don't care about whether the game was part of an OROW competition or not; they want to see a solid title they can have fun with.Ã,  I personally admire people who are able to come up with a story, illustrate it and script it within a week, but I believe that mentioning that a game was created in only a week would be a turn-off for people who don't know anything about the creative process that's needed to accomplish such a task.Ã,  They'd see a rushed title, which they should avoid.

buloght: So in that case, the game simply suffers from awkward interface.Ã,  It was giving me conflicting feedback: The rudder was completed, but I needed to complete the rudder in order to continue.Ã,  And as I said in my description of the game, "I attribute this to an awkward interface, and possibly some pixel hunting."Ã,  In my original writeup, I considered the game to have "convoluted puzzles that defy logic", but later I toned it down, and instead of design I blamed only implementation.Ã,  And you may be assured that this won't hurt your future games too much: the majority of people who'd read my column (people outside the AGS community who already are in the loop) will be interested in games on their own merits, not because of who designed them.

[MrColossal]

"I'm sorry, I think you're being needlessly argumentative."

I'm not, Helm.

Again, he said he did exactly what people said to progress in the game. It didn't work. What is he supposed to think about the game? That he, after doing exactly what one is supposed to do to get pass that part in the game, is at fault and just gave up too early?

Afflict, I don't understand your point, the broken up quoting/sentence fragment style is confusing me.

Rubik's cube. If I show you step by step how to beat Rubik's cube and you follow each step and it still doesn't work then the Rubik's cube is more than likely at fault, yes?

[Afflict]

Just because someone tells me step by step how to solve the Rubik cube doesn't mean that I'll be able to solve it as I might not be understanding the way you are explaining it to me.

And as for breaking it up for you, heres a brief description, you said that discworld was personaly unplayble due to a puzzle and the walkthrough didnt help. In that regard anybody that you talk to / blog / any other way who holds your opinion in high regard will not even play discworld because its unplayble...  (you know people have selective hearing)
And they dont want to waste their time, which in which case they wont because discworld ROCKS!

And altough you might think that I am being needlessly argumentive, thats your opinion your entitled to it just like I thought saying a game is unplayble just because you couldnt solve a puzzle needlessly unaccurate.

But Buloght just nicely asked to change the review or remove it from the thread.. Simple.

[Snarky]

Look, here's the review in its entirety:

The Family Treasure. By all accounts, this is a very good game, if I am to paraphrase people on the AGS forums. Unfortunately, I was unable to move from the first screen, even after following the instructions of people who successfully finished the game. I attribute this to an awkward interface, and possibly some pixel hunting. The graphics and music are very good, but I personally found the game unplayable.

Now, whether or not you agree with the use of the word "unplayable," I don't see how anyone could misunderstand what it means in context. "I was unable to move from the first screen, even after following the instructions of people who successfully finished the game." That's the reason for calling it unplayable. It's not going to mislead anyone who reads it into thinking the game is unplayable for any other reason than the one given. And it clearly says that others were able to get past this one point, and thought it was "a very good game."

[MrColossal]

Afflict, that first quote was a quote from helm. Not directed at you.

And I'd say Buloght did everything but ask nicely.

"(you know people have selective hearing)"

If I told someone "I was unable to get past a certain point in DW:N and I don't know why, all walkthroughs on the internet told me to do something and it didn't work. There must be a hidden bug in the game and it is personally unplayable to me." and all they listen to is "UNPLAYABLE!" how is that my fault?

[DanClarke]

Is it possible that it could be edited to say something like...

'based on this encounter, i was unable to progress, and therefore the game was unplayable for me.'

[Afflict]

Or rather "I was unable to finish the game even after looking for help at the guys on AGS who already finished the game. " and also something about "This game won the MAGS award on the AGS forum" something like that.

Well whatever its really Jozefs blog and let him write it, I still stand with what I say and that having someone else give reviews too might be a good option.

Altough Buloght might of taken offence quickly he was fighting for something he has dedicated alot of time and effort into and he did win the MAGS too. So granted he did a very good job and I'll be dammed if he sat down and took a statement like that after all his time invested into making such a great title.

MrColossal its not your fault if someone doesnt play discworld, its their own. Regardless of how much you influenced them...

"Hey billy bob do you know grandma is leaving us a half a million dollars when she dies?" "Well no I dont but (cocks his shotgun) I am jsut going to hunt some squirels"

Now would billy bob have gone of and shot his grandma gee I dont know.

I am not argueing with anybody just stating my opinion and view point. And now I think ill leave this topic be cause really we all are of topic here.

[scourge]

Firstly I DONT'T consider my game one of the best at all, i agree it's an average AGS game, nothing special.

This is how I see it (have been from the start). Jozef has to play all the games to review it. So after playing ONLY one room (of at least 8 rooms) of my game and struggling to finish a puzzle he decided to just say it's unplayable excusing himself from playing further.

Firstly you have to complete a game to make a review, what he did was lazy and unfair and he shouldn't be making reviews CLEARLY.

And he clearly he is also lazy to correct his mistake.

And I cannot see how people disagree with me, he isn't very positive for independent gaming and he shouldn't be doing what he's doing. We are making adventure games, taking the effort to make them and not just throwing ill-sprouted opinions which in most cases are extremely wrong, especially on his artistic side. Most of the time he doesn't even know if a game is ripped, 3d or 2d. If he's gonna take the time to make reviews then his attitude should change completely.

I don't mind bad reviews, constructive criticism, whatever, but he shouldn't be aloud to say things are unplayable when it isn't. That's it, end of discussion, MrColossal.

[Mordalles]

1. I would like to direct their attention to the best games in the niche, in order to increase its credibility.Ã, 
2. who tries to describe the games to my peer group, and you'll see how consistent I am

1. well, i don't think you are doing that at all. i don't know if i understand the setup of your page, but you said you will list the best games first with a proper review, and then the "sub-par" games underneath that with a description. if that is the case, then you put cedric and the revolution, mind's eye and emily enough under the "sub-par" games, while they were all nominated for best game of the year. and some other really better games like silent knight 2, etc. and, correct me if i'm right, but soviet something was nominated for best story, yet it seems you found the story a disappointment, and mentions this.

2. sorry, i still don't see any consistency. Ã,  especially where you mention art or the difficulty of the game.

however, i respect your opinion, and rather enjoy reading it. so please continue. i think, games are very subjective, and you learn what games a certain reviewer likes, and how you aggree or disaggree with that reviewer.

but about the puzzle. it was really easy, and not akward at all? that is what baffles me. considering i'm really bad at adventure games myself. will there be an award for most talked about puzzle in an AGS game. since i think we have a winner.

[DonB]

Actually.. I do agree with Buloght a bit..
a reviewer should complete a game to review.. really!

But.. as said before by people.. i respect the reviewers opinion.. and like to read.. cause it is subjective..

tho.. in this case i would say it's bad publicity for buloght.. and we amateur game makers need all the good publicity we get.. if its bad publicity cause of negative comments on the game after its being played it's just too bad, but to be taken and to be respected!.. but in this case.. i would say get the review out of that page or first finish or even play the game..

But i cant make you, can I? 

And keep up the good work, looks fine for the rest Jozef!

[Snarky]

Dude, you are way out of line. You need to take a step back, because the only one you make look bad is yourself.

Firstly I DONT'T consider my game one of the best at all, i agree it's an average AGS game, nothing special.

This is how I see it (have been from the start). Jozef has to play all the games to review it. So after playing ONLY one room (of at least 8 rooms) of my game and struggling to finish a puzzle he decided to just say it's unplayable excusing himself from playing further.

Firstly you have to complete a game to make a review, what he did was lazy and unfair and he shouldn't be making reviews CLEARLY.

Some AGS games have fatal bugs that make them impossible to complete. Some are so fundamentally broken that asking a reviewer to complete them is cruel. It is therefore not reasonable to demand that a reviewer has to complete the games before reviewing them, as long as they make it clear what they based their review on. Jozef did.

Jozef couldn't make it past that point in the game even though he knew what to do, and even though he got instructions by people who had done it in the Hints/Tips forum. Wouldn't you think that there's a problem somewhere, not that you're just unable to solve a puzzle?

The review is not unfair, since he describes exactly what he experienced, and even mentions that others think it's a great game (indicating that it may very well be a problem only he is having).

And he clearly he is also lazy to correct his mistake.

If you think it's about laziness, you clearly don't understand a thing about what this debate is about.

Don't you see the ethical problem of removing or changing a review because of pressure from the person who made it?

And I cannot see how people disagree with me,

Your problem is that you can't see a thing beyond your own narrow point of view. At least try to understand the points others are making, instead of decreeing "end of discussion."

he isn't very positive for independent gaming and he shouldn't be doing what he's doing. We are making adventure games, taking the effort to make them and not just throwing ill-sprouted opinions which in most cases are extremely wrong, especially on his artistic side. Most of the time he doesn't even know if a game is ripped, 3d or 2d. If he's gonna take the time to make reviews then his attitude should change completely.

I have a hard time taking this as anything other than sour grapes. Jozef provides something really valuable to the community. A brief and relatively comprehensive guide to indie adventure games, he allows players (who don't all follow the Completed Games forum and all the MAGS, OROW, etc. threads) to know what's out there. And for creators, his capsule reviews may sometimes be the only piece of critical feedback they receive.

The reviews are certainly not perfect, but gee, do you really think all AGS games deserve the effort of a professional-quality review?

I don't mind bad reviews, constructive criticism, whatever, but he shouldn't be aloud to say things are unplayable when it isn't. That's it, end of discussion, MrColossal.

Actually, he should be allowed to say whatever he wants. As it happens, this was a fair and accurate review. You may quibble that the word "unplayable" is too negative, but it's used to describe an experience that he explains in detail, so there's no risk that it will be taken the wrong way.

Besides, you do seem to have a bit of a problem with criticism. You weren't too gracious about Farlander's comments in the "80s to 90s" sprite jam: "thanks for letting me know i'm such a bad artist."

[Squinky]

A person can write whatever they want, people keep saying he needs to change it or that he shouldn't be allowed to put things like this on his own blog. That is just dumb. He has every right to his opinion, and to make a website displaying it. You have the choice to accept that or not, and he has even extended an opportunity for you to post your concerns on his page, so people could read your side of the arguement. As far as I am concerned thats more than good enough. 

I can agree that a person really should play through an entire game before reviewing it, but Jozef has every right to do things his way.

I am more suprised by the wacky behaviour of Buloght, seems like there is a big huff every time you don't win a sprite jam or get a good review, and I'm not quite sure what that is about.

[Mordalles]

snarky, now i know why you're called the private insultant. Ã, 8)

[Pesty]

Here's my review of everyone in this thread: You're all stupid and your mothers are smelly. The end.

Now to sit back and await the end of the world that my review has caused!

[Squinky]

My....Mother....died last week...

[Ghormak]

This thread is unreadable!

[Pesty]

My....Mother....died last week...

Why do you think she's so smelly!!! HAHAHAHA.

[scourge]

I only said that about farlander since he said i didn't work long on the sprites when infact i did.

I have never complained not winning a sprite jam, i have only mentioned a dozen times how bad an artist i am.

I'm not bothered about the review just the comment and have explained that. So stop being stupid. You're just throwing the old-member against new-member mumno jumbo. Well you can have your exclusivity.

[scotch]

I think it's silly to bring any newbie vs oldbie slant into this, it's completely nonsensical... most of the people disagreeing with you are relatively new members, I would have no idea if you joined earlier than them or not, it's a non issue.  I'm glad you're not too bothered by the review now anyway, can we let the argument rest everyone?

[Helm]

A review is a buch of comments in the row. You're evading the argument by what you're saying. You object to a comment in a review. What makes you think the reviewer should change it because of this? It's one thing to discuss the validity of a comment or a full review (go post a comment in his blog if you like, as he said you could) and one thing to demand the comment to be taken out. Come on, now.

Who is being stupid? Do not insult people. Handle this calmly.