Interesting Action/Adventure I am playing - American McGee's Alice

[rodekill]

Might as well get it over with...

[Hollister Man]

While I think Migs was on a bit of a rant, but I agree.  I have had great fun playing it.  It is made such that even if her original adventure in Wonderland wasn't a dream (or nightmare), this Wonderland is inside her mind and a metaphor for her mind.  She is deeply troubled by her tragedy and needs to work out her guilt.

And yes, I felt that the original was opium induced, but not necessarily.  It was probably as innocent as the poppies and snow in the Wizard of Oz (Poppies being the source of opium/heroin, and snow being a name for said heroin).  It is hard for anyone to say now.

[Captain Mostly]

Oh migs. With your cunning de-construction of my comments, you've made me seem so stupid. I apologise completly, and take back everything I said, 100%
American McGee's take on the story is not derivative, OR based on a lack of understnading of the books which I now realise (after you helped me see the truth) I've never read, especially not studied the history of, and CERTAINLY not lived in a house named after an aspect of one of the poems contained within.
ALSO: I now see that "opium fuled" doesn't imply any idea that it was written under the influence of drugs, and I've never heard of ANYONE trying to make out it's a gothic pair of books before in my whole life.
You are a wonderful and brilliant person and I'd just LOVE to be as perceptive and clever as you are. It must be simply brilliant to have everything so clear to you, not to mention to always be right all the time!

[DGMacphee]

I'm divided about this issue.

Sometimes reinterpretations of certain media types enhance the overall story by adding a new perspective. For example, look at Kubrick's reinterpretation of the ending of A Clockwork Orange in comaparison to Anthony's Burgess' novel.

Hoever, sometimes a reinterpretation can contain little substance when compared to the original. I remember reading an article by Dan Knauf about his meeting with a producer who wanted to turn Twelve Angry Men into an action film starring Bruce Willis (I shit you not).

I tend to think American McGee's Alice belongs in the later category. Sure, it's fun. But will it be remembered as much as the novel? I doubt it.

[[Cameron]]

The Clockwork orange change was quite good. I beleive if Kubrick had used the books ending it would have had people in uproar complaining about such a let-down of an ending, while the way he chose o finish it was quite good.

[Migs]

Oh migs. With your cunning de-construction of my comments, you've made me seem so stupid. I apologise completly, and take back everything I said, 100%
American McGee's take on the story is not derivative, OR based on a lack of understnading of the books which I now realise (after you helped me see the truth) I've never read, especially not studied the history of, and CERTAINLY not lived in a house named after an aspect of one of the poems contained within.
ALSO: I now see that "opium fuled" doesn't imply any idea that it was written under the influence of drugs, and I've never heard of ANYONE trying to make out it's a gothic pair of books before in my whole life.
You are a wonderful and brilliant person and I'd just LOVE to be as perceptive and clever as you are. It must be simply brilliant to have everything so clear to you, not to mention to always be right all the time!

Sarcasm noted.  I also note you entirely ignored my point.

I'm divided about this issue.

Sometimes reinterpretations of certain media types enhance the overall story by adding a new perspective. For example, look at Kubrick's reinterpretation of the ending of A Clockwork Orange in comaparison to Anthony's Burgess' novel.

Hoever, sometimes a reinterpretation can contain little substance when compared to the original. I remember reading an article by Dan Knauf about his meeting with a producer who wanted to turn Twelve Angry Men into an action film starring Bruce Willis (I shit you not).

I tend to think American McGee's Alice belongs in the later category. Sure, it's fun. But will it be remembered as much as the novel? I doubt it.

If you don't think a reinterpretation is good, just reject it, but I think most attempts at reinterpreting classics are worthwhile endeavors.  I'm not sure I would really consider American McGee's Alice a reinterpretation, though.  It's more of a dark parody.  It's a unique story, and bears little semblance to the original except in theme.

[Captain Mostly]

I've not ignored it, but because I've aparently (according to you) not read the book I don't feel in a position to pass useful comment on it.
Since I'm clearly a jibbering idiot with no knowlage of the subject, I can't imagine why you'd want me to respond to whatever argument you're alluding to.

[Pesty]

I'm going to have to agree with Captain Mostly here. The books were NOT influenced by drugs (read any biography on Charles Dodgeson and you'll see) and they were actually very innocent stories. As a person who's had an obsession with the books for quite a few years now, I've studied quite a lot about the matter.

The reason I liked the game was because of how dark it was compared to the original stories. I felt like it was less of a "sequel" and more of a stand-alone story based on the stories.

[DGMacphee]

If you don't think a reinterpretation is good, just reject it, but I think most attempts at reinterpreting classics are worthwhile endeavors.Ã,  I'm not sure I would really consider American McGee's Alice a reinterpretation, though.Ã,  It's more of a dark parody.Ã,  It's a unique story, and bears little semblance to the original except in theme.

For a start, a parody is a reinterpretation. It's reinterpretating literary work for ridicule and mockery.

And secondly, while I agree the game is a parody, I don't think it's the best kind of parody. I say this because the ridicule is really one note: portray the world as a gothic nightmare. It doesn't really deconstruct the original material. And after you get over the original joke, the game just becomes an actioner.

I think a game like Duke Nukem 3D is a better action parody, because it is spoofing several things at once (films, games, etc). It's clever, while still being a playable game.

Not that that detracts from the playablity of Alice. I just feel that it falls into that "Twelve Angry Men" category I mentioned before. It's just doesn't transcend above the original in any way.

[Kinoko]

I haven't played the game so I can't comment on whether I think it's good or bad, but I gather the general concensus is that it's an alright game but nothing revolutionary.

I had to totally agree with CM on the point of people constantly doing things like this. When I was a kid, I saw a couple of gothic type versions of Alice in Wonderland and thought, "Ah yeah, cool". To this day, I've probably come across hundreds of stories/ short films/ artworks / etc that parody the original story putting a "dark" twist on it, and I'm just so utterly sick of it by now It's one of those things people think "Wow! I'm being sooooo original" with, and it just makes me groan and roll my eyes. If someone just wants to do something artsy with it, fair enough, but I just can't stand people thinking they're doing something original.

Also, like has been said, the original books weren't that weird (in a "dark" sense), and they were BORING. I remember reading them for the first time and just being so utterly disappointed. All the shows and movies I'd seen led me to believe that the books must be fantastical, well-written journeys... they were just so average. I give the guy kudos for the ideas in it, but the writing and execution just bores me to tears. (Unlike the Oz books, which are freaking unbelievably wonderful! ^_^).

I still want to have a go at the game at some point, but I'd just love to see someone do a nice, relatively innocent version of the books for a change, instead of being so "OMG im so dark & goth!!1" about it.

[Ryam BaCo]

alice is a nice game with excellent level-design but i somehow miss some kind of deeper story that i was expecting after the first hours. anyway, for me it was one of the best action-games because of the bunch of good ideas for instance implemented in the chess/gearwheel-levels

but carroll's original text of it is of course still better (and - if you have a look at the pictures - also somehow handling with a nightmare) than the game, which could have been better in several points.

[Snarky]

I can't say I've noticed Alice being all that much more prone to dark reimaginings than most other children's literature (Svankmajer's version was pretty disturbing, but the Disney version evens the scales). Nor have I ever heard it refered to as a gothic story.

However, I think a good argument can be made that Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass are nightmarish. They take place in worlds where rationality has broken down, and that is a scary thing to children of a certain age (in particular). If you read (or more likely were read) the books at the right age, they would probably frighten you. And that's not to mention menacing stuff like "Off with their heads!" In fact, if the stories are dreamlike, I'd argue that they resemble nightmares more than any other kind of dream.

Even if you disagree with this, I think it's inaccurate to say that McGee didn't "get it" for making the Alice game so dark. He didn't make it dark because he thought the original stories were dark. He made it dark because they were not. If you are trying to shock or disturb, violating something innocent is a simple but effective trick. (For another examle, just take Larry Flynt's pornographic cartoon featuring Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. Instant controversy!) Horror writers, of course, do this kind of thing all the time. In my opinion, it's a valid (though increasingly tired) device, and should be judged on the quality of the execution.

I've only played a couple of levels of Alice (I didn't care for the platform gameplay), but I've heard good things about the darker story McGee weaves around Wonderland elements. So while the twist may not be very original, it appears it is at least exectuted competently.

Finally, I'd just like to say that there is a weird kind of symmetry in creating darker versions of children's classics like Alice. After all, most children's fairy tales have been bowdlerized from original stories that were much more violent and sexually explicit. (Little Red Riding Hood is the classic example.) These overtones and psychological motifs, not fully supressed even in the nursery versions, are part of what gives the stories their eerie potency. I imagine a nimbus of adult versions of Alice floating around the original stories, and I think it can only increase their richness and strangeness.

[DGMacphee]

Even if you disagree with this, I think it's inaccurate to say that McGee didn't "get it" for making the Alice game so dark. He didn't make it dark because he thought the original stories were dark. He made it dark because they were not. If you are trying to shock or disturb, violating something innocent is a simple but effective trick. (For another examle, just take Larry Flynt's pornographic cartoon featuring Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. Instant controversy!) Horror writers, of course, do this kind of thing all the time. In my opinion, it's a valid (though increasingly tired) device, and should be judged on the quality of the execution.

I'm not saying that McGee didn't get it. I'm saying that it's a game of little substance compared to the original text. It's like taking A Streetcar Named Desire and remaking it as an action film. Sure, it's possible to make such a film and still "get it" through reinterpretation, but I doubt the concept would stand anywhere close to the original text due to lack of substance.

I also think you can't really compare Alice to your example of Flynt's Dorothy cartoon. Firstly, Flynt's cartoon was a single-shot comic, where a one-note joke (such as the corruption of innocence) is possible. For a whole game, you need more than something one-note.

And secondly, Flynt's cartoon was only controversial because it was released during a time of conflicting sexual attitudes. McGee's Alice isn't all that controversial. It's very tame compared to something like GTA 3 (which I classify a very controversial,  partially due to it's modern-day violence and partially due to it's satirical look at urban society).

Sure, I'm all for art that corrupts innocence to make a point. But for McGee's Alice, I don't think it does it very well. As you say it "should be judged on the quality of the execution". And I don't think its artistic value was executed well.

Not only that, it's hard to mix genres like that. Is it a parody? Is it horror? Is it an actioner? You see, it's hard to take seriously because it seems to cross between genres very rapidly, never knowing what it really is. A game like Grim Fandango can cross between noir and comical genres well because it does it in a more subtle way. That's why I think McGee's Alice doesn't work well as a "scary" game or a "parody" game.

But like I said, this doesn't detract from the gameplay. As said, it's got a good level design and it does keep you interested. But it's not a game of substance when compared to the original text.

[Snarky]

I'm not saying that McGee didn't get it.

No, but Captain Mostly did.

I'm saying that it's a game of little substance compared to the original text. It's like taking A Streetcar Named Desire and remaking it as an action film. Sure, it's possible to make such a film and still "get it" through reinterpretation, but I doubt the concept would stand anywhere close to the original text due to lack of substance.

I think it's pointless to compare the "substance" of a computer platform game with that of two books. Of course the game is not going to be as substantial!

Let me put it this way: I don't think the game would have been any more substantial if it had stuck more closely to Lewis Carroll's vision.

I also think you can't really compare Alice to your example of Flynt's Dorothy cartoon. Firstly, Flynt's cartoon was a single-shot comic, where a one-note joke (such as the corruption of innocence) is possible. For a whole game, you need more than something one-note.

It was just meant to show that the juxtaposition of something (seen as) innocent and something judged corrupt can have a strong effect. For an example where the effect is more sustained, take all the horror films with dolls/puppets.

As I mentioned, I haven't really played the game a lot, but from what I've read, the "dark Wonderland" is actually a fairly complex, multi-layered story. You start out thinking that it's just the game taking elements and characters from the Alice stories in an action game. The whole idea that Alice is growing up and that's why Wonderland is more "adult" quickly comes up. Then it is revealed that this dark world is the psychosis of a girl in a mental asylum, which raises questions about the original Wonderland as well. Then players have to uncover the hidden psychological meanings of the obstacles in the fantasy world, find out the truth about Alice's childhood, and (I assume) overcome her dementia.

If that description is broadly correct, I would say it's a remarkably thorough exploration of a multi-faceted idea, not a "one-joke" concept.

And secondly, Flynt's cartoon was only controversial because it was released during a time of conflicting sexual attitudes. McGee's Alice isn't all that controversial. It's very tame compared to something like GTA 3 (which I classify a very controversial,Ã,  partially due to it's modern-day violence and partially due to it's satirical look at urban society).

Sure, I'm all for art that corrupts innocence to make a point. But for McGee's Alice, I don't think it does it very well. As you say it "should be judged on the quality of the execution". And I don't think its artistic value was executed well.

That's you prerogative. I haven't played it enough to really tell, I'm mostly just going from reviews I've read. However, most of the discussion up until now has been about whether the concept of a "dark Alice" is worth doing or not, I haven't seen any arguments for why you think this game doesn't do it very well.

Not only that, it's hard to mix genres like that. Is it a parody? Is it horror? Is it an actioner? You see, it's hard to take seriously because it seems to cross between genres very rapidly, never knowing what it really is. A game like Grim Fandango can cross between noir and comical genres well because it does it in a more subtle way. That's why I think McGee's Alice doesn't work well as a "scary" game or a "parody" game.

In the bits I played, I didn't really notice any parody elements. (Having jokes does not make it a parody.)

But like I said, this doesn't detract from the gameplay. As said, it's got a good level design and it does keep you interested. But it's not a game of substance when compared to the original text.

[Hollister Man]

Everyone has pretty good points.  I was rather surprised by some of the insights, to tell the truth.  On the topic of nighmare-ish things, I used to be a very consistent lucid dreamer.  I often could tell I was dreaming, but it led to constant paranoia that I was still asleep. 

Anyway, I was watching an episode of Northern Exposure, (the one where the DJ starts losing the ability to speak properly,)  and he was dreaming of animals.  All of a sudden I realized that he was seeing animals that were missing something.  A giraffe without a neck/head, just a head running by...etc.  It was so startling and strange that I actually used my old check system for telling if I was awake.  I haven't done that in years, weird huh?

Back to the topic, I suppose...

[DGMacphee]

No, but Captain Mostly did.

My mistake, yes he did.

I think it's pointless to compare the "substance" of a computer platform game with that of two books. Of course the game is not going to be as substantial!

Let me put it this way: I don't think the game would have been any more substantial if it had stuck more closely to Lewis Carroll's vision.

I disagree. For example, I think LucasArts' Fate of Atlantis has as much substance as the Indy movies. And what about Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? Blade Runner too? Thus, I think it's fair to say you can make a computer game with as much substance as other media formats.

If that description is broadly correct, I would say it's a remarkably thorough exploration of a multi-faceted idea, not a "one-joke" concept.

But I think if that's the case, the game is trying too hard at being "deep". A game like Hitman or Deus Ex does this sort of multi-faceted exploration so much better (especially Hitman from a psychological standpoint).

That's you prerogative. I haven't played it enough to really tell, I'm mostly just going from reviews I've read. However, most of the discussion up until now has been about whether the concept of a "dark Alice" is worth doing or not, I haven't seen any arguments for why you think this game doesn't do it very well.

I'm not disputing dark Alice at all. I just don't think it was done very well and explained why.

In the bits I played, I didn't really notice any parody elements. (Having jokes does not make it a parody.)

Migs previously said it was a parody. I was responding to him. However, while it's true that it's not jokes that makes parody, it's the ridicule of certain elements that does make a parody. And McGee's Alice does ridicule, and as I've said I don't think it does it very well.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Quote
I think it's pointless to compare the "substance" of a computer platform game with that of two books. Of course the game is not going to be as substantial!

Let me put it this way: I don't think the game would have been any more substantial if it had stuck more closely to Lewis Carroll's vision.

I disagree. For example, I think LucasArts' Fate of Atlantis has as much substance as the Indy movies. And what about Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? Blade Runner too? Thus, I think it's fair to say you can make a computer game with as much substance as other media formats.

Not to mention Stephen King's The Mist, or The Dark Eye, based on Edgar Allan Poe's stories... and since the argument here brought up is more about the actual substance of the game, rather than the substance of a game which is inspired on something else, need I remind anyone of names such as Gabriel Knight, or Black Dahlia? Or, once again, Grim Fandango? The fact that they're games doesn't means they're less substancial, on the contrary, I'm here to tell you the Gabe Knight games are way better than the books (although the Beast Within novel is truly superb! Much better than the first one, and a fine achievement in itself).

[Moox]

is basically a sequel, if you will, to Alice in wonderland.Ã, 

There is a sequel, its called through the looking glass

[DGMacphee]

need I remind anyone of names such as Gabriel Knight, or Black Dahlia? Or, once again, Grim Fandango? The fact that they're games doesn't means they're less substancial, on the contrary, I'm here to tell you the Gabe Knight games are way better than the books (although the Beast Within novel is truly superb! Much better than the first one, and a fine achievement in itself).

I always thought that the books were based on the games.

And having said that, I feel the books seem to have less substance than the games (but I can't make a decent judgement because I haven't read the books, so I'm going on gut instinct here).

I also thought GF was an original game and wasn't based on a novel.

But Black Dahlia was based on the James Ellroy novel, yes.

[Hollister Man]

I know that LT, I said 'if you will,'  I have never read through "Through the Looking Glass" but did read a bit of the original.  As I have said, I am really surprised the life this thread has taken on.   I was writing it assuming that Alice was a pretty unknown game, and thought some of ya'll would like the tip.   

I happen to like the concept of the game a lot, although it would have made a better story, perhaps.  What really WOULD happen if the Queen went berserk?  If Wonderland really was simply part of Alice's subconcious, what kind of changes would there be if she went from a childlike innocence to self pity, fear, and anger that came after her parent's death?  Would Wonderland become the dark place McGee depicted?  Who knows.