I feel bad to ask such kind of question but :
Is AGS dying the same way adventure games did?
(the community, the production and even maybe the engine)
1- Is Expectations and enthousiasms for higher resolutions, higher quality graphics and also voice acting make almost impossible the realisation of amateur games by a small unpaid team?
Look at : GiP Threads sorted by #of Replies (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?board=8.0;sort=replies;desc)
EDIT :
It's been a while since games looking like Larry Vales and Rob Blanc were produced. Is this a manifestation of this phenomenon?
2-Is the AGS population growing old?
I understand what bring you here if you're 25. But the others? Do the younger agsers have more modern-stardard expectations? Humanly impossible to fullfill if you're not Interplay, Bethesda or Dave Gilbert. I'd like to hear you on that.
3 - How time-consuming the new editor functionalities are to scripts and maintain?
I don't know all the reasons why CJ is moving out. But let's say that it's not the good old display functions and others basics player.say who are the most time-consumming either : it's all the new 3d / sprite handlings /extenders functions and other wonderful stuff who may are useful but not mandatory in adventure games.
Discuss.
2.
I might not be that much younger then the rest of you, as I am 20. But I did not grow up with these kinds of adventure games. I grew up with games like Fallout and half-life. But I find that the point and click adventure game have a special charm to them.
I came here cause I thought "This seems easy enough, I can do it too." Then I found out it wasn't easy at all. But I have stayed because of the community, which is awesome.
And I think this is what makes the younger people stay, the community.
If you can lure them in, they'll probably stay.
Many AGS games going commercial, being finalists of biggest indie games festivals and regularly making it into top freeware games lists are actually very positive signs I think.
Confession time: I was never interested in Larry Vales or Rob Blanc despite being aware of their existence for years. Some classic recommended AGS titles I tried then also didn't meet my expectations for amateur games - the only one I enjoyed was "Keptosh I: The Search for junc", but it was very short, simple and just not enough.
Things changed in 2008. The games that made me permanently interested in the AGS scene were games like Nelly Cootalot, Infinity String, A Second Face and Winter Rose - all of them really long and rather insanely well-made in every aspect, I agree. But that's a reason to be proud of them!
The graphics were always there to impress the public, and there's indeed a huge amount good-looking free games too choose from by now stealing attention from the rougher looking ones (that's not that cool). But adventures with truly great stories and puzzles are still a rare breed, so new games' creators shouldn't feel dwarfed by the quality of everything so far at all.
QuoteIt's been a while since games looking like Larry Vales and Rob Blanc were produced. Is this a manifestation of this phenomenon?
People simply keep improving themselves, we've got the tools, we've got tutorials, skilled artists are spending time on the C&C forum telling people what to do and giving them advices to improve their craft instead of keeping to their own, even kids nowadays, I mean, the old fogies responsible for Rob Blanc and Larry Vales grew up on MS Paint, kids nowadays grow up on photoshop and flash and can draw much better stuff than I could at their age with the tools I had. There are plenty of recent AGS games who would looks like Larry Vales if they were made with the same tools we had 10 years ago.
Duals, is it too late to send you a PM or email regarding 2d graphics artists for your new MI game?
Hmm, i'll admit popularity does seem to be declining a little.
If you look at the forum stats the numbers have been going down fairly steadily for the past few years.
But there are still some very exciting commercial AGS projects in the pipeline. Resonance, Blackwell, Gemini Rue etc.
And there are still some ambitious freeware projects too.. TLG for instance.
I think perhaps the quality is just going up which means projects take longer.
..I forgot what my point was.
Quote from: CalinLamperheadHmm, i'll admit popularity does seem to be declining a little.
Maybe the key is to pull out the sex card in advertising and show the blue cup crammed in between two luscious boobies.
Quote from: Snake on Tue 02/11/2010 18:19:23
Quote from: CalinLamperheadHmm, i'll admit popularity does seem to be declining a little.
Maybe the key is to pull out the sex card in advertising and show the blue cup crammed in between two luscious boobies.
That's why I'm soooo sad Lemmy and Binky never finished
The Forgotten Element. ;)
Quote from: LUniqueDan on Tue 02/11/2010 18:31:45
Quote from: Snake on Tue 02/11/2010 18:19:23
Quote from: CalinLamperheadHmm, i'll admit popularity does seem to be declining a little.
Maybe the key is to pull out the sex card in advertising and show the blue cup crammed in between two luscious boobies.
That's why I'm soooo sad Lemmy and Binky never finished The Forgotten Element. ;)
Kinky Island seems to be still going ahead though.
Guys,
Everything in this world is going down... Let's not count the users. I'm always saying that I'm happy to create a games. The only problem that I see is the updating the AGS for the newest Windows platforms. And I really don't care how much younger users will join AGS community. As long as I'm happy to create, everything is fine.
Did adventure gaming die? What about Telltale?
Telltale brought it back from the dead... Actually maybe AGS brought it back from dead - who knows?
Quote from: Ascovel on Tue 02/11/2010 20:45:43
Telltale brought it back from dead... Actually maybe AGS brought it back from dead - who knows?
Both of then Singlehandedly Revived The Genre, did they not? :D
Quote from: Radiant on Tue 02/11/2010 20:51:37
Quote from: Ascovel on Tue 02/11/2010 20:45:43
Telltale brought it back from dead... Actually maybe AGS brought it back from dead - who knows?
Both of then Singlehandedly Revived The Genre, did they not? :D
Yes.
The adventure genre has been declared dead several times starting even before 2000 when we had the displeasure of seeing the abominations that were the first 3D adventures.
It's far from dead though, as is AGS.
The way I see it, this is just the annual "the forums/AGS are going downhill" thread; we've had these for several years, too; too lazy to search them though.
QuoteThe way I see it, this is just the annual "the forums/AGS are going downhill" thread; we've had these for several years, too; too lazy to search them though.
Yeah I had those in mind while posting.
My question is more in the long run. Maybe the 2-screenies-rule hide a new phenomenon : "Look at my Sam-And-Max style game I'm about to do in 3 weeks."
I won't start bitching on Radiant's negationnism about the massacre Adventure games had in the past (even if I agree I forgot the actual production of Teltate and The Adventure Compagny). But my question is still the same : Is higher expectations, maybe from younger ones, and the older ones facing life issues, are going to kill AGS - let's say just for feasability reasons?
I dunno. That's why I'm asking.
What about Wintermute - is it dying? I think only about 1-2 games made with it are released each year.
Quote from: LUniqueDan on Tue 02/11/2010 21:39:15But my question is still the same : Is higher expectations, maybe from younger ones, and the older ones facing life issues, are going to kill AGS - let's say just for feasability reasons?
I don't think so. The Pixelart community is thriving, mobile games are in big demand and many people realize that hires 3D graphics don't automatically make good game design obsolete (as some developers seem to think).
Related forums (ours included) seem to continuously gain new members in the lower twenties.
I believe that okay looking 3D graphics are still much harder to do than okay looking 2D graphics, and that this isn't going to change anytime in the next ten years or so, and that's why people who want to make their own game will still use tools like AGS.
Growing up with a Playstation 2 (as opposed to an NES) doesn't automatically preclude you from enjoying good older games; of course there will always be people who won't give a game with distinguishable pixels another look, but they have been around for some time now and didn't manage to make old school gaming die so far.
I don't think AGS will die anytime soon. Actually I've been looking around for other engine because I had some coding troubles and thought itm ight be easier with another one like Gamemaker or Construct (wow this one is pretty coo I have to admit).
BUT there's one reason to stay with AGS and thats community. Yeah I know this might sound cheesy but the AGS community has so much knowledge and talent to offer that I really don't want to give up on that. It's really an inspiration.
Also when playing games like Eternally Us or the recent Technobabylon I see that AGS has something to offer which many games lack: Depth and quality.
whenever there is a interesting story to be told and whenever there are games to be made which cross the line between art and games. adventures won't be far - ags won't be far.
...In which form whatsoever
Personally I miss some forumites a lot. But really, let's take my approach to gaming. I started doing comedy games. That all of them sucked. Then I decided to take a different approach.
That's how all AGS members more or so do. Some release their attempts, some don't. But we're all changing style into game-making. We're evolving into something great. We're increasing into quality and exposure. And that has a drawback on the forums.
I recall when Radiant made Tales of Two Kingdoms. There was nothing like it. Nothing felt so professional back then. Same I suppose went with Yahtzee's games. Lots of AGS people get different kind of exposure. Look at Trapezoid.
AGS games became what we thought was not possible. Dominant. Look at how many AGS games of last year were featured in magazines. I'm personally a little sad for the forums, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing.
Lots of oldies are also experimenting with different engines part from AGS. I'm glad I've been part of this in a small way, and I'm glad I helped or saw others rise in glory. We should all be happy than nostalgic. We've been part of this damnit. Even if it was by inspiring others, or pushing others to the end, it doesn't matter.
Quote from: Snake on Tue 02/11/2010 18:09:56
Duals, is it too late to send you a PM or email regarding 2d graphics artists for your new MI game?
I LOLED SO BAD I THINK I ALMOST DIED.
.. I've been playing a lot of Sims 3 these past few days, and the way the Sims explore dungeons and what not in the expansion "global explorers" is pretty much a 3D adventure game.
Point, click, do something, proceed to next room.
I feel like 3D games are going to continue to incline...
Thankfully smartphones and other handheld devices handle 2D games better for now... but if they catch up to be able to display 3D better in the future, who knows what will happen to 2D games.
I, for one, love the nostalgic, familiar feel of two dimensional games, especially when they're almost picturebook-esque, but I imagine that my type of gamers (casual female gamer?) are not going to increase significantly enough to manipulate the trend of the gaming world.
Rumours of the death of adventure games have been greatly exaggerated. And I find the quality of playable AGS games released recently is higher than it was when I joined in 2003.
There are peaks and troughs of course, but if we're going to fret about that we should be more worried about the world's economy.
Quote from: Ascovel on Tue 02/11/2010 18:37:11
Kinky Island seems to be still going ahead though.
Walter Koch! :P And the all new animations are utterly neglected, it's sad... But the adventure game scene is thriving, and AGS has been one of the major forefronts of that - which makes me, and a lot of people I know, proud of that. Few game design systems get four page tutorials in magazines.
AGS, and what it can do, is an art form. Thankfully enough people realise there is something unique in hand drawn art and storytelling, it's almost as basic and a necessity in the computerised world as books are in our facebook age. You wouldn't see books burnt or dismissed. People will never see the point and click art form dismissed. If anything AGS is currently what LucasArts and Sierra once were, with Wadjet Eye Games, TellTale and Ben There Dan That Inc coming up the (your) rear.
But you're right, til the day AGS forums accept the UK spelling of realize there is simply no hope.
I remember sitting at the ECTS thing with Marek when Charles Cecil said point and clicks were dead. I always thought that was incorrect. There is a place for the 3D adventuring market certainly, but AGS is helping p&c's thrive.
As for ever died? I'd say no, strictly no. Every year for the past 20 you've been able to buy a point and click. It's just no-one expected them to be 3D. Consoles pissed on the mouse and PC games became centrally keyboard operated. I think the "dead" part of the adventure scene comes from a lack of understanding of the change that came about in the early nineties from mouses to consoles and certain graphic advancements. Like when you were a kid and books were awesome and then you used a Gameboy. You forgot about books but it's not like they ever became un-powerful because of that.
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:01:00
I remember sitting at the ECTS thing with Marek when Charles Cecil said point and clicks were dead.
To be honest when I played his Broken Sword 3 and then read its reviews I truly believed Cecil that he managed to kill the point and clicks - crashed them with one big, heavy crate after having been pushing it for 2 hours first.
That's why I like to see the current state of adventure games as a resurrection after death in the early 2000s.
Hahaha! Yes, oh, the damnation he got for crate pushing! But they were still perfectly alive during BS3 days. They were just trying something new. Even Cryo were alive during BS3, just? What crate pushing was in 2003 is what barrels in the middle of nowhere in space town are in 2009. And that's nothing more than a minor glitch.
Someone started the "dead" rumour, nothing more to it than that. In the early 00's every sucked internet fad d**k, and "point and clicks are dead" somehow got involved. Reputedly, AGS has been the forefront of point and click development since the turn of the millennium, some lack seeing/accepting that. Maybe that's me sucking some **** ;)
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:34:35
Someone started the "dead" rumour, nothing more to it than that. In the early 00's every sucked internet fad d**k, and "point and clicks are dead" somehow got involved. Reputedly, AGS has been the forefront of point and click development since the turn of the millennium, some lack seeing/accepting that. Maybe that's me sucking some **** ;)
Oh, there was a bit more than that to the "dead" rumour - mainly Sierra (then LucasArts) changing management, getting into serious financial trouble and saying they won't release any more adventure games because it's not profitable. That was already quite a killing blow - all publishers turned away from the genre. Only from 2005 or so there was again a larger number of new releases that you could choose from and the digital distribution getting popular proved to be the best remedy.
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:34:35
is what barrels in the middle of nowhere in space town are in 2009.
Haha. I need to play his new demo and see if I can spot any easter egg barrels.
Nah, I kid. ;D
Prince said the internet is overrated. Well, f*** him. John Romero said Daikatana would blow our minds off. Well, f*** him. Dave Gilbert once said (don't make me link, cause I have it bookmarked) he's going off AGS. Well f*** him.
AGS isn't going to go down and take some with it. AGS won't go down b****!
Yeah, gansta!
Quote from: Ascovel on Wed 03/11/2010 00:56:23
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:34:35
Someone started the "dead" rumour, nothing more to it than that. In the early 00's every sucked internet fad d**k, and "point and clicks are dead" somehow got involved. Reputedly, AGS has been the forefront of point and click development since the turn of the millennium, some lack seeing/accepting that. Maybe that's me sucking some **** ;)
Oh, there was a bit more than that to the "dead" rumour - mainly Sierra (then LucasArts) changing management, getting into serious financial trouble and saying they won't release any more adventure games because it's not profitable. That was already quite a killing blow - all publishers turned away from the genre. Only from 2005 or so there was again a larger number of new releases that you could choose from and the digital distribution getting popular proved to be the best remedy.
That to me is assuming it was all about those two companies, and to me it wasn't. They were the biggest non 3D publishers of the time but in all fairness adventure games have been better suited to independent publishing, publishing by the game studio. I caught the back end of LEC and Sierra, DOTT I played around the time it was famous, but a lot of their stuff not until the late 90's. And around the time of that and Grim Fandango, there was still quite a few other titles on the shelves. I could still almost buy Under a killing Moon in shops around the turn of the millennium. I dunno, I think it's psychological. I don't think it died, I think many - myself included - got too wound up in thinking LEC and Sierra were the only ones that could pull this stuff off. The 00's proved otherwise.
Not sure if I'm correct or not. But isn't AGS looked down upon indie developers usually?
Back in 2001 I feared adventure games was a dying breed. I felt like I was the only one in the world that actually enjoyed them, but that was before I discovered the AGS community. When I did, it was mainly because of the large number of free and decent (before that I used to play flash adventures at newgrounds) adventures ready to download and play. Then I thought: this is how it will be in the future; individual developers making games, telling their own story.
Then there was Telltale. :) It is not the end off the genre, it is the end of the first generation, in 2008 we welcomed the second generation and it is juvenile and vibrant ready to kick butt. That's how I see it. 8)
The nostalgia for old-school point & click adventures when they were no longer being made by big studios demonstrates an enduring market for story-based and puzzle-based adventures. People -not all people, of course, but many - LIKE this genre. So long as there are fans, the genre will never die, and I don't see the fans all dying off. Sure, the demographics will change over time, but it's reasonable to conclude that adventure gamers will be around for a long, long time.
Economics change, however. When point & click was cutting edge c.1990 people might pay $90 for a "top of the line" adventure game. A large part of that cut went to retail distributors (50% ?), and then there was the price of printing everything, publishing disks, and shipping and labour that all came off the top before profit. But by 2000 the novelty had worn off -no sane consumer would pay that kind of money for an adventure game. But without those big price tags, big studios just couldn't make their business model work and so were shut down.
But another change is happening in the background around 2000. Nostalgia was kicking in, creating demand for adventures, and with ever more powerful personal computers and internet penetration it suddenly became feasible for amateurs to design and distribute their own games. This is a second golden age for the genre!
Now to 2010 -these small studios and many talented developers that have cut their teeth on freeware games are hitting a wall. The genre has plateaued, and they want to "take it to the next level". Their time is limited, but their ambitions heightened by ever more powerful tools at their disposal. The logical solution is to go commercial, try to get paid for your work and satisfy your artistic drive. That's the dream anyway, and I for one applaud (and support by purchases) the folks around here that have been daring enough to make the jump. The economics are different -distribution costs have plummeted compared to 1990, but so has the price-point the gaming public will accept. I'd be surprised if even a posh professional looking title can ask more than $30 and make any kind of serious volume. But the point is this is where the genre is heading, and it's creating changes in the AGS forums as a result.
So finally to the forums. This place was an exciting frontier in the second golden age of 2000-2005, and I regret getting into it as late as I did. There are still occasional bursts of the same raw enthusiasm, but now it is more likely to be tempered by experience and the discipline required to make a "respectable" game. The bar has been set higher, and I can see how this would be discouraging to newbies from the get-go. The loss of the point & click script editor as of version... 2.7? By 3.0 for sure -definitely made amateur game making less accessible than it had been previously. All of this makes for fewer willful but modestly entertaining development trolls, but also fewer whimsical newbie projects, while the rest of us plug away at increasingly ambitious projects that take us away from squandering time on the forums. Finally, as the core of the community ages it is natural for the zeal of youth to slowly fade into the staid composure of wisdom, which has its own benefits but doesn't always make for the most entertaining forum posts. Thus there have been no spectacularly public departures of prominent community members lately, and the moderators are less inclined to let immaturity have free reign in threads. As we get older and wiser we see the consequences of these things, and so try to nip them in the bud. Expectations change and the community modifies its behaviour as a consequence. All of this is natural and by no means indicative of a less vigorous community or genre; we're just slowly changing.
It'll only die if you let it. Just keep making games 'til the cows come home.
No matter how hard we try, things won't stay the same. AGS and the Adventure genre will change. I love the way games used to be, but instead of trying to hold on to that glorious past, I'd like to make a new era of nostalgia. Make things change for the better so that in another ten years, gamers will remember our time and smile.
Any community goes through ups and downs. Personally, I think AGS is in the middle of a very exciting time. Going (semi) open source may bring back the old editor, which may help bring more newbies into our world. Also, we have Oceanspirit Dennis now. And any community that has OSD is obviously an awesome online community!
As far a the lower output of games goes, I think that may just be a reflection of the times. I know that I used to have a lot more time to work on Barn Runner games a few years ago. But the economy isn't what it used to be. I'm putting in a lot more hours than I used to at work. That doesn't leave a lot of time for AGSing. I suspect this may be true of others as well.
All in all, I don't think the big blue cup community has anything to worry about. And with Tell Tale games holding the banner and other outfits like Zombie Cow on Steam, I don't think adventure gaming is in any danger either.
Just my two cents, anyway.
@Baron
Speaking as a fairly new member (...at least as registered member) of this community, I can only say Baron's observation concerning Newbies in reference to the forum and AGS itself is really spot-on. That is exactly the predicament for most newcomers! I mean not everyone has icy's happy-go-lucky, maybe partly insane attitude and plunges right in (which takes a lot of courage nevertheless (seriously :D!)). Personally I'm sure I'll grow into AGS in time by helping out here and there and working with you guys.
All I can contribute to this discussion is that by playing the games AGS members have produce over the last couple of years I can see a more open minded approach towards the definition of what adventure games are and a tendency to experiment with AGS, try out new stuff and so on. AGS is a powerful tool, a lot of your games have shown me just how powerful, and I couldn't care less if they're 2-D, 3-D, whatever-D, if they're adventures or hybrids, if narrative or experimental, as long as they rock! (And while hanging around here, I hope to learn how to make 'em that way!)
As Ponch and ddq mentioned before me, I reckon open mindedness is a key element in pretty much everything and will prevent AGS from stagnating and let's face it: there'll ALWAYS be one of you freaks who wants to create insane games with AGS - it might even be me some day... :P
I do feel slightly that the accessibility side of AGS went a little down hill after the 2.72 days. The interactions menu opened the system up to me massively, and gently guided me down the path of scripting without holding my head under water. It would be nice to see a push back in that direction, which I think was hugely beneficial to newcomers.
Baron pointed out "The bar has been set higher, and I can see how this would be discouraging to newbies from the get-go. The loss of the point & click script editor as of version... 2.7? By 3.0 for sure -definitely made amateur game making less accessible than it had been previously. All of this makes for fewer willful but modestly entertaining development trolls, but also fewer whimsical newbie projects, while the rest of us plug away at increasingly ambitious projects that take us away from squandering time on the forums."
But still, I think if an unofficial poll was carried out, asking how many people were working away on games quietly in the background, we'd find a massive number of games we didn't even know about. Adventure games aren't going anywhere any time soon. Personally, I still work with 2.72. I may be missing out on a load of features, but at least I can use the damn thing.
Quote from: Cirius on Wed 03/11/2010 08:22:24Personally, I still work with 2.72.
Me too, albeit not for the interaction editor. I simply find the interface more accessible, plus it has better Linux support.
Anyway, in reaction to the OP, note that
text adventures still have a thriving community, so I see no reason why graphical ones would die.
Resident Evil, Billy Mays, Adventure Games and Vinyl Records. Why do I love things that are dead?
Well, Duals, it looks like it's up to you and I to revive adventure games with your MI game. We could even throw in Troica and Leitor's Edge as bonus features. On the first of April. It'll work.
Is this a joke I've missed, is Duals actually working on a MI game?
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Wed 03/11/2010 22:56:20
Is this a joke I've missed, is Duals actually working on a MI game?
I'm not working on a MI game, this is just a joke referring to my great newbie-post-attack-of-the-forums era.
Quote
My first adventure was Escape from Mi
So i downloaded the other 2 and bought Curse
I loved all of them but one is a personal favourite
is MI2
Ok they were all perfect
It's my favourite game
but when i played 2 i was stunned
Great music
One hell of an Ending
many laughs
(i like it when he jumps with the crossbar and he hear the Indy theme0
Plus very strange
ex: when he opens the door and you see Mi 1
My best
post
ever.
It's just so
great
that even
iceygames
can't beat that kind
of style
I don't think AGS is going downhill at all. If anything, more and more professional-looking games are being made with it. Every year an AGS game is showcased at the IGF (last year there were two), and not every game made with AGS is made by a member of the forum. The whole "indie game movement" of the last few years has made old-school genres of all types popular again, including adventures. The fact that AGS makes those adventure games possible is bound to have an impact.
Quote from: Dualnames on Wed 03/11/2010 01:13:36
Dave Gilbert once said (don't make me link, cause I have it bookmarked) he's going off AGS. Well f*** him.
Um, could you elaborate? I'm in the midst of making three games with it, so I don't see where this is coming from.
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 04/11/2010 12:33:15Quote from: Dualnames on Wed 03/11/2010 01:13:36
Dave Gilbert once said (don't make me link, cause I have it bookmarked) he's going off AGS. Well f*** him.
Um, could you elaborate? I'm in the midst of making three games with it, so I don't see where this is coming from.
Looking at the rest of the post in question, and subsequent posts, I think you've missed the humour.
Poor Dave, you just don't remember.
http://web.archive.org/web/20031206022330/pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsfrm4.showMessage?topicID=2739.topic
I do. ;)
I was just joking about that. I'm glad that the person that wrote this topic and the person I value most on this forum is the same person.
I know you're working on three games and generally are constantly busy with AGS and occasionally non-AGS related projects. My post referred to your past, so I apologize if my petty attempt at humour, became an insult. That wasn't my intention. I hope you're not offended.
Woah. Holy 2002, Batman. Yeah, I did give up on AGS for awhile to deal with some personal stuff. I'd almost forgotten all about that. No worries, Dual. I get the joke now. :)
Quote from: Radiant on Wed 03/11/2010 17:22:16
Quote from: Cirius on Wed 03/11/2010 08:22:24Personally, I still work with 2.72.
Me too, albeit not for the interaction editor. I simply find the interface more accessible, plus it has better Linux support.
Hmmm, for me it was the other way around. I vaguely remember trying an old AGS version and not liking the interface at all... But then, I saw version 3.0 and the interface looked much more familiar to me, so I could instantly get the hang of it.
Quote
Dave Gilbert once said (don't make me link, cause I have it bookmarked) he's going off AGS.
Wait a minute there duals, do you go around regularly and bookmark some incriminating evidence about agsers, for future reference?
Respect!
I wonder what else you have bookmarked...
Yeah, he does. He's got a huge collection.
Dave: I love Eric's responce in the thread, "i'm sure you'll be back. i mean, you HAVE to come back to play my RON game... RIIIIIIIGHT?"
YOU MEAN THE ONE YOU NEVER FINISHED, ERIC??@?!1
Here's my favorite Bookmark.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020703020003/pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsfrm4.showMessage?topicID=3014.topic
Snaakke with love. ;)
EDIT: As for 2.72 I recall several me saying that 3.0 felt so foreign for me, and so unfriendly. Now I'm 3.1.2, guys you're fucking missing out. No excuse, nothing. You're missing out.
Quote from: Dualnames on Thu 04/11/2010 13:56:18
EDIT: As for 2.72 I recall several me saying that 3.0 felt so foreign for me, and so unfriendly. Now I'm 3.1.2, guys you're fucking missing out. No excuse, nothing. You're missing out.
Yeah, I agree. I'm always about moving forward to what is bigger and better, even if it takes a little adjustment. Except for the new windows Paint, it's bloody useless with all those vector graphics always getting in my way. Good thing I only used it for rough sketches and such if I needed to visually explain something to someone in person.
AGS 2.72 was so damn fiddly it annoyed me. I agree that 3.x is as well with the events pane but not nearly as bad.
Hahaha, DGMacphee's old toilet avatar. Damn I miss that guy. He got married and responsible and all that...
so did Dave, but he is still here.
Quote from: Layabout on Mon 08/11/2010 15:12:15
Hahaha, DGMacphee's old toilet avatar. Damn I miss that guy. He got married and responsible and all that...
so did Dave, but he is still here.
Married, yes. Responsible... :-\
I always find these types of threads strange because I don't think adventure games have died yet. Dying a slow death? Maybe. But while the number of adventure games produced over the years has declined sharply it's never ceased entirely; Telltale is cranking out a steady (and profitable, presumably) stream of adventure games; the Adventure Company continues raping Conan Doyle and Agatha Christie's corpses for a Sherlock Holmes/Poirot game every year, and their next game is an adaptation of Treasure Island with traditional point and click controls; you've got games like Professor Layton on the DS; a thriving indie sector with loads of freeware and more and more commercial games; and finally the emerging remake market like monkey island 1&2 and Broken Sword. That's an awful lot to overlook in order to say the genre is dead.
The same thing applies to AGS, really; can you say an engine is dying when the number of games (and their average quality) made with it seems to increase gradually each year?
Hey, whatever happened to the Mentor Program (http://web.archive.org/web/20020816112549/pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsfrm4.showMessage?topicID=2662.topic) from back on EZ Boards? Resurrecting that would bring all kinds of newbies into the fold. Think of all the CrAzY projects we can help jumpstart! (cap/miniscule alternating spelling for old time's sake).
EDIT: OMG we can call it the Padawan Program! This must happen.
Quote from: Baron on Tue 09/11/2010 01:57:51
Hey, whatever happened to the Mentor Program (http://web.archive.org/web/20020816112549/pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsfrm4.showMessage?topicID=2662.topic) from back on EZ Boards?[/url] Resurrecting that would bring all kinds of newbies into the fold. Think of all the CrAzY projects we can help jumpstart! (cap/miniscule alternating spelling for old time's sake).
EDIT: OMG we can call it the Padawan Program! This must happen.
Having seen those kind of threads and the [sarcasm]greatness of results.
[/sarcasm]
Baron are you serious? :D
If this is serious I pick Ben304. To be his mentor. The boy needs discipline!
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 09/11/2010 02:13:00
I pick Ben304. To be his mentor. The boy needs discipline!
Goodness, this thread is getting kinky! ;)
I have been playing adventure games since they first began. 54 years old.
First Sierra sold out and the new management dropped adventure games.
Than Lucas Arts decided to change to keyboard movement.
Than we had to wait for smaller companies infrequent releases. Thank God for The Longest Journey!
I like AGS and am using it for my game "Danse Macabre."
Quote from: dbuske on Tue 14/12/2010 15:04:00
Than Lucas Arts decided to change to keyboard movement.
I don't think it's keyboard movement that killed Lucasarts - It's the mass amount of Star Wars games they decided should take priority over adventure games.
That or just their vision to follow the 3D evolution. Up until GF, all it required was one CD, one install, one epic amount of point and clicking. Then GF not only meant keyboard control, but also 2 CD's and too much time waiting for the game to RUN off the CD. That killed it for me, I lost faith in them at that point. Don't get me wrong, GF was amazing, but the game running directly pretty much from CD, let alone the copy I had - brand new - barely worked, just sucked.
The art of 2D and storytelling never died. Too many players and developers trusted in what 3D "might" bring, and for many did. But AGS is only growing, along with the popularity of its games. People will never, ever put aside the beauty of 2D hand drawn art and storytelling, and that's something AGS will always be able to provide.
It's a bit like when Mr Revolution said the P&C is dead. It's still one of the most shocking statements I've ever heard in person. It just shows to me commercial companies lose touch with the real world. They live by sales.
Quote from: Mods on Wed 15/12/2010 00:04:50
It's a bit like when Mr Revolution said the P&C is dead. It's still one of the most shocking statements I've ever heard in person. It just shows to me commercial companies lose touch with the real world. They live by sales.
I's say, even worse than "lost touch with the real world" - in this day and age you can still make a lot of money just letting people P&C in 2D, right? Farmville, Broken Sword re-releases, remakes, ports, more remakes... So Revolution lost touch with its money-making brains too (for a while at least).
I don´t thing AGS (or adventure games for that matter) will die soon.
Adventures might not have a big place in the games world, but they are never going to die. And of course, AGS is not going to die either. As long as there is Internet, AGS will not die.
As an example, when Microsoft tried to kill old games creating Windows with no DOS, some people came out with DOSBox and ScummVM.
What I mean is, of course Call of Duty 5 is cool, but point n click games are special.
As Gilbert said: “I don't think AGS is going downhill at all. If anything, more and more professional-looking games are being made with it.â€
Just my two cents.
Quote from: Mods on Wed 15/12/2010 00:04:50
That or just their vision to follow the 3D evolution. Up until GF, all it required was one CD, one install, one epic amount of point and clicking. Then GF not only meant keyboard control, but also 2 CD's and too much time waiting for the game to RUN off the CD. That killed it for me, I lost faith in them at that point. Don't get me wrong, GF was amazing, but the game running directly pretty much from CD, let alone the copy I had - brand new - barely worked, just sucked.
My 2nd CD arrived broken. That sucked.
You know, I don't remember having trouble playing Grim Fandango when it came out. Now this might be because at the time I was primarily using my Amiga and didn't get Grim Fandango right away because it was pc only, but I'm pretty sure I played it the same year it was out. I remember because I used to have one of those slot-loader 2x cd-roms, the ones where you place a cd inside a container and insert it. I actually did (and still do) think games should just be distributed in those containers to avoid them being manhandled and scratched. It seemed like such a cool way to store them as well (you could write on the tops of the cases and stack them) and they were only about 2 bucks a piece when they came out. Another benefit was you didn't need a cd tray anymore so you didn't have to risk busting it, or in my case, having it stick 8/10 times.
I was on the AGI Studio (and earlier) scene back when I was 15. By the time I was 25, AGI was all but dead :(
I'm 30 now, and I hope AGS isn't dying, but sadly I think we've seen the best days gone by...
Quote from: cosmicr on Wed 15/12/2010 03:04:40
I'm 30 now, and I hope AGS isn't dying, but sadly I think we've seen the best days gone by...
So which were the best days and why?
Well, speaking with Chris Crawford, adventure games are basically puzzles rather than actual games. I might add my own definition of "non-time critical, yet time-based storytelling".
So they can not possibly have died, because every single game genre involves solving puzzles in one way or another. If it really matters if they are presented in a classical point&click fashion and look like a lost Lucas Arts classic, then you can probably say that "adventure game aesthetics as established by Sierra Online (TM) and Lucasfilm Games (TM) have died somewhere around the year 199x", but the concept of solving puzzles for entertainment in video games has spread so wide that most people don't even recognize it anymore.
About AGS dying a slow death: Just look at the amount of media coverage AGS games are getting by indie gaming blogs and review sites. AGS is an established and serious game engine with a community that is known as "helpful and enthusiastic", the number of releases is pretty high and their quality as well. And just look at the innovation potential compared to other game engines; the YoYo game maker community for example has an incredibly high output, but 95% of it is waste, and of the 5% of the games that are actually enjoyable, maybe 5% are in some way interesting or innovative.
About Gödel's liar paradox: It can not be fully understood without having a look at Tarski's undefinability theorem.
I would argue that there are various types of puzzles and only some qualify as adventure game puzzles. There are also all those adventure games where puzzle solutions are pretty much given right away or limited to talking to every character - I think those are the real death of the genre.
Quote from: kaputtnik on Wed 15/12/2010 08:32:24
About Gödel's liar paradox: It can not be fully understood without having a look at Tarski's undefinability theorem.
That got me really curious. What does Gödel have to do with AGS and adventure games?
I would argue that the adventuregameness of adventure games have nothing to do with puzzles at all. In fact, puzzles were probably the most frustrating part of adventure games of yore.
They can be, certainly.
But no, I see no reason to think that the adventure game genre, and with it AGS, are dying.
Basically, people will never abandon adventure games for two reasons: There is no other form of entertainment like them, and the kind of entertainment they provide is something people crave.
Quote from: Ascovel on Wed 15/12/2010 10:52:28
That got me really curious. What does Gödel have to do with AGS and adventure games?
Uhm, not much. If you try real hard, you could probably build a nice dialogue puzzle from his liar theories. I just thought a well-rounded speech should always make three important points.
Responding to the rest of your post, I would argue that there is no such thing as an "adventure game puzzle" and a "non-adventure game puzzle". There are genre stereotypes, but I can't see anything preventing me from adding any puzzle seen in an adventure game to a role playing game, a straightforward puzzle game, a story-driven car-stealing, racing and shooting game, a jump&run game or a good old first person shooter. If I implement it convincingly, of course.
Talking to somebody to get a certain piece of information which you then present somebody else is a puzzle. This is the most basic form of puzzle adventure games have to offer, and those are real puzzles. They present an obstacle and have to be overcome to advance the story, and in my opinion they are structurally equal to "activate switch" or "use red herring on chunky salsa". I fully agree with Babar that "puzzly" puzzles and the way they are presented in lots of adventure games detract from the gaming experience. But nevertheless, they are still an intrinsic element of adventure games when it comes to a definition of the genre, aren't they?
If there were no challenge and no puzzles at all, wouldn't adventure games just be some sort of interactive story? I love exploring and looking at all sorts of things and talking to NPCs in adventure games, but if I wouldn't meet a challenge anywhere in the game, I think I'd stop playing it pretty soon. Or is "open door" already a puzzle? If so, then adventure games consist of series of puzzles only, because they rarely contain areas where controlling skill, reaction or strategy are necessary. I thus conclude that adventures are a sort of playable comic books with added audiovisual atmosphere. (And not only aesthetically, but also structurally, if "turn page" in itself can be regarded as a challenge or a puzzle. It might be to the not-so-skilled reader!)
To make my point:
Please don't ever resort to the "use newspaper with door" and "use coathanger on keyhole" puzzle, ever, ever again.
To make another point:
The adventuregameness of adventure games depends on their adventurous value, as defined by Bruce D. Temkin in his landmark essay "The adventure gamer's experience value chain".
To conclude:
I should probably get back to work and let others decide if AGS is slowly dying or not, I think I just lost all credibilty on that subject.
Quote from: kaputtnik on Wed 15/12/2010 14:06:57
Responding to the rest of your post, I would argue that there is no such thing as an "adventure game puzzle" and a "non-adventure game puzzle". There are genre stereotypes, but I can't see anything preventing me from adding any puzzle seen in an adventure game to a role playing game, a straightforward puzzle game, a story-driven car-stealing, racing and shooting game, a jump&run game or a good old first person shooter. If I implement it convincingly, of course.
Oh, there is nothing to prevent mixing different genres and/or puzzle types, but that's besides the point as there still exist games with dominating gameplay elements that define what they are - including adventure games and puzzle games.
Of course most players will do just fine without trying to establish some more specific definition for the adventure game genre. However, personally I like having a more restrictive definition, and feel adventure games posses enough identity to e.g. make it possible they could die off one day.
And if they do, good riddance! Because then they can come back from the dead - again, and we can finally start making some serious money with them, with all the excitement that will surely ensue.
No, but seriously, they can't die. They are cheap to produce, easily made cross-platform, have a potentially much broader audience than "core" games...It's just that the full potential of platforms like the Nintendo DS hasn't been used for classical adventure games, but rather more "inventive" twists on the genre.
Mark my words, you'll be playing adventure games on your favourite social media (TM) platform with your favourite portable gaming and communication device (TM) pretty soon.
P.S.: When wrote "mark my words", I wanted the sentence to sound as if Charlton Heston had pronounced it. Please use your imagination.
Quote from: kaputtnik on Wed 15/12/2010 18:26:52
Mark my words, you'll be playing adventure games on your favourite social media (TM) platform with your favourite portable gaming and communication device (TM) pretty soon.
You can do it now:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=42343.0
Quote from: Babar on Wed 15/12/2010 11:22:57
I would argue that the adventuregameness of adventure games have nothing to do with puzzles at all. In fact, puzzles were probably the most frustrating part of adventure games of yore.
One could also argue that battles and platforming were the most frustrating part of Prince Of Persia Sands Of Time and that its narrative was what made that game truly memorable, does that mean combat, action and platforming should be entirely removed from the definition of what an action-adventure game is? Are action-adventure games just about exploration and narrative? Would it be feasible to create an action-adventure title that does not feature action or stealth or platforming or challenges or rules or decisions whatsoever? Would it be ok to label such thing an "action-adventure game" or even a "game"?
No, it would not. The narrative in action-adventure games or adventure games or any other games for that matter is a reward for overcoming the challenges present in the game, just like encountering a new type of enemy, or finding a new weapon, or a new ability, or an interesting character, or a joke, or entering a new world with different graphics. Yes it's often the part that we like the most, yes it's often the part that we remember the most, but genres are not defined by their rewards but by their challenges, rules, goals and decisions they asks us to take (which I'm now going to refer as gameplay).
If said gameplay is frustrating, it doesn't means it needs to be removed, it means it needs to be better designed, better implemented. Because the moment you changes the gameplay of a game, it switches genres, remove the running, gunning and theft out of GTA and it becomes a racing game, removes battle out of Prince Of Persia and it becomes a platformer, removes the platforming and it becomes an hack and slash. Remove all gameplay from a game and it stop being a game, it becomes an interactive movie where I must keep a finger on the "Play" button for the story to unfold.
And puzzles are part of the definition of adventure games. Changing them for mechanics and challenges that do not require reflection and creativity will result with a completely different genre, remove them entirely and you get interactive movies. If a puzzle is frustrating, it's the puzzle designer that is to blame not the puzzle itself. I believe creating interesting puzzles that are fun to solve and fit inside the narrative and the game world itself is a lost art, one very few could master, Tim Schafer being one of the rare person who could. And we certainly need this art to be found again, practiced, developed, because the more fun puzzles are going to be, the more compelling adventure games will be. And I take a MM, DOTT, MI1, Loom, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango or Time Gentlemen Please with puzzles over one without any day.
The escapist posted that article on the subject:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_284/8425-Give-Me-An-Axe-Ive-Had-Enough-Of-This-Puzzle
Quote from: kaputtnik on Wed 15/12/2010 18:26:52
No, but seriously, they can't die. They are cheap to produce, easily made cross-platform, have a potentially much broader audience than "core" games...It's just that the full potential of platforms like the Nintendo DS hasn't been used for classical adventure games, but rather more "inventive" twists on the genre.
Mark my words, you'll be playing adventure games on your favourite social media (TM) platform with your favourite portable gaming and communication device (TM) pretty soon.
I have laid awake some nights, conjuring wondrous images of making my own DS adventure games and rejoicing at the true wonder of the notion. Then becoming a bit sad because it's a difficult goal to realize.
[quote author = blueskirt]
The escapist posted that article on the subject:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_284/8425-Give-Me-An-Axe-Ive-Had-Enough-Of-This-Puzzle
[/quote]
Good read, that! (Except the Professor Layton games have made me love puzzle puzzles)
I think we've had this discussion before, blueskirt, and just as before, I think you've misunderstood one of my points. I'm not advocating the removal of gameplay from adventure games to make them into interactive movies or something.
Thing is, I don't consider puzzles to be an integral part of adventure games at all. There are several puzzle games that weren't really adventure games, and several adventure games that didn't use puzzles as their major gameplay mechanic. In this sense, I suppose my definition of "adventure game" is a bit broader than some.
That was a very interesting article, and I fully agree with the first part of it, but am somewhat ambivalent towards the 2nd part. Yeah, I MOST DEFINITELY, COMPLETELY ABHOR those sort of puzzles where (for example) you're faced with a set of levers, and a (very obvious, but still irritating) clue etched into a wall nearby like "1 is 3, but 5 is 2. I am 9, so what are you?".
[Next bit contains a few spoilers for those weird people who've never played the major adventure games]
Thing is, for me, most puzzles (or even "obstacles" as that article calls them) are completely idiotic and unfitting.
Take the Fate of Atlantis, for example. A great game. I enjoyed it a lot. It still was full of very puzzles, some of which were by necessity (of being puzzles) very idiotic, not in the least because they were so patently absurd. Like finding the name of the Lost Dialogue from the parrot to be able to pass the "dialogue obstacle" imposed by the Tikal guy, to be able get into the temple. Or that silly exchange between the grocer and Omar in Algiers.
The puzzles that I DID enjoy were usually "gimmicks". Stuff that was solvable even after you had solved them. Like the insult swordfighting in Monkey Island- you knew exactly what you had to do, but I still had immense fun everytime a new insult was thrown at me, or a response was thrown at me. Then a new kind of fun when I had to figure out the responses to the sword master.
Or the time travelling stuff in DotT. The basic concept was fairly simple, but the combinations of things you could think of involving "okay, send this to the past, past will 'plant' it somehow, and then the older version of it will be available in the future".
Problem is, there are only so many gimmicks before people start just copying the base idea and flipping around the names.
Another kind that I liked (and I don't see a lot of these days) is ACTUAL detective work games. One example I've played of this is that FMV Sherlock Holmes game- it didn't have a set of waypoints for the plotline to follow, you had to use your brain, find connections, make notes, and then finally accuse the bad guy in court. Then again, I'd not be 100% whether to call that an adventure game.
Thus if a puzzle is so obvious that one does it automatically (using a key on a door to open it), it isn't really a puzzle.
And if a puzzle is so idiotic that it makes no sense, even if it may make sense (pouring wax on the butt-print of a guard who was sitting on a chair -which you had placed there after switching out the hard-backed chair that was there originally- so as to get an imprint of a key, which you then get made, and thus open the door), especially in a game where such absurdness is completely out of place...well then, that puzzle really shouldn't be there, at least according to me.
So yeah, I fully advocate mixing it up a bit- perhaps some action, perhaps some other gameplay element, and tossing out the puzzles. Because honestly, very, very, very few games I've played had good ones.
QuoteIt still was full of very puzzles, some of which were by necessity (of being puzzles) very idiotic, not in the least because they were so patently absurd.
What do you mean exactly? Why do you consider puzzles to be idiotic by nature? Is this some kind of puzzle? ;)
I personally think are a lot of undiscovered "gimmicks" left out there, as long as one is willing to look for them. But I don't really consider this sort of thing to be a gimmick, just creative puzzle design. Insult Sword Fighting was basically a creative twist on a standard dialogue puzzle, and the wondrous time stuff in DotT was a very clever twist on item combining (combine inventory x with time = inventory y). Provided we, as designers, are willing to search for new creative twists like these, I don't doubt that new, more creative forms of puzzle design will occur. I still design around inventory items, but every now and then I try not to and see where it leads me.
Meta-game puzzles are quite interesting to me - take for example the cursor puzzle at the beginning of Frantic Franko.
To play and finish an adventure game with easy (or without) puzzles is like to tell your friends that you are sleeping with your wife :)
Are you telling me your wife doesn't make you complete three quests before sex? Am I wasting my time looking for the crystals of power?
Quote from: Ali on Thu 16/12/2010 13:01:20
Are you telling me your wife doesn't make you complete three quests before sex? Am I wasting my time looking for the crystals of power?
Ali, I really don't understand what you are trying to tell. Or maybe you like to answer to a post that have "sex" and "wife" in it. What I mean is that is pointless to play an adventure game with easy (or without) puzzles.
Why people like to play easy adventure games? A book or a movie is a good alternative.
I am killing AGS... just like I killed adventure games.
WITH A POINTY STICK!
...
*poke*
Quote from: Harg on Thu 16/12/2010 13:16:22
Quote from: Ali on Thu 16/12/2010 13:01:20
Are you telling me your wife doesn't make you complete three quests before sex? Am I wasting my time looking for the crystals of power?
Ali, I really don't understand what you are trying to tell. Or maybe you like to answer to a post that have "sex" and "wife" in it. What I mean is that is pointless to play an adventure game with easy (or without) puzzles.
Why people like to play easy adventure games? A book or a movie is a good alternative.
It seems that I intentionally misunderstood your point. I just found it gratuitous for you to chose marital intercourse as an example of something so unchallenging as to be pointless.
And Calin, where were you when Camilla Parker Bowles was POKED WITH A STICK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11978954)? Hmm?
Quote from: Ali on Thu 16/12/2010 14:32:39
It seems that I intentionally misunderstood your point. I just found it gratuitous for you to chose marital intercourse as an example of something so unchallenging as to be pointless.
No, Ali. It's not pointless to have sex with your wife! It's pointless to make a story of it. I tried to be funny...
Are you both using some sort of parabol to say that we should marry AGS and have sex with it to revive it?
Quote from: Ben304 on Thu 16/12/2010 08:07:06
Meta-game puzzles are quite interesting to me - take for example the cursor puzzle at the beginning of Frantic Franko.
Wait till you see the full game and its meta-meta-puzzles. ;)
Meta-meta?
I reserve judgement until I not only see but understand this concept.
Quote from: Ben304 on Thu 16/12/2010 16:40:36
Meta-meta?
I reserve judgement until I not only see but understand this concept.
That simply means one level higher than the meta level.
I hope it's not. I have only recently discovered AGS.
Quote from: Monsieur OUXX on Thu 16/12/2010 15:08:32
Are you both using some sort of parabol to say that we should marry AGS and have sex with it to revive it?
AGS is underage. We should instead have sex with that chiseled Hercules of a man, Chris Jones. Mwrrrow.
I hate puzzles and i suck at making them, so take this with a pinch of salt.
Why do we need to focus on god-damn retarded same old fashioned technique of making adventure games? You know why people speculate they're dead? Cause they stopped evolving!! Cause purists and hardcore fans that bragged about finding logic on a completely retarded puzzle, are considered as geniuses in the genre! So yeah, that's why. When I first played DoTT in 2008 or 2006, I was amazed like nothing. Not by the graphics, but by the puzzles, yes they were somewhat easy, but they were so rewarding! Stop being so close-minded people!
Because innovative puzzle design is a bitch. No, really, she is. She still hasn't returned that shirt she borrowed, and the cds you left at her place are now scratched beyond belief.
In order to innovate in a puzzle, you not only have to come up with a new way of presenting your gameplay, you also have to balance it and indicate it's presence and solution in a way that makes it not too obscure that you're never going to understand what the hell is going on, and not too obvious that it's not even really a puzzle anymore. With standard inventory related puzzles, we've got tons of examples of what not to do and what to do, it's easier to compare our efforts to a precedent.
Go and have another look at the Frantic Franko thread - there's a game packed full of so many twists on classic puzzle design that it's worth playing just to get a different perspective on the craft of building puzzles with unusual logic. My time spent playing the demo, however, was a blend of "This is creative stuff, there is some real potential here" and "Man, there's a lot to take in and none of it really works as I expect it to." This made it hard to get into the game; as much as I enjoyed seeing ever stranger and more unexpected twists of logic, I was held back from getting drawn in because I felt completely lost much of the time.
I think, then, that perhaps the ideal solution is not to create games absolutely *full* of totally new ideas, but to weave new ideas amongst familiar gameplay, and I think after reading the Franko thread again Igor would probably agree with me here (feel free not to). Snakes of Avalon, for example, saw a much more palatable blend of the unexpected with the familiar, and thus I enjoyed it much more, despite probably having less exciting concepts in it.
A great puzzle design example is Shifter's Box. Yeah I know. See it takes the Myst approach into a more compact and less tedious way. You visit unknown worlds and you solve puzzles.
I can see the reason people compare it to Myst, however games like Riven and Myst rely on quite a bit of exploration and walking around. I managed to somehow get away with making Shifter's Box extremely linear - whilst you could travel between places whenever you wished to, you only actually needed to go backwards once in the entire game.
While this works for a short game, I think it would stick out quite noticeably in a fuller length game. I've some ideas to try at some point in the future which could be comparable to the design in !, in which I tried to give you access to a number of areas at once without the tedious walking around that bores the hell out of me in adventure games. For me, cutting down this tedious walking around time is very desirable - if only it can be done well! If we all focus on eliminating the parts of adventure games we don't like in this manner, we're bound to come up with some cool new ideas at some point.
QuoteYou know why people speculate their dead? Cause they stop evolving!! Cause purists and hardcore fans that bragged about finding logic on a completely retarded puzzle are considered as geniuses in the genres!
It was more complicated than that. The death of adventure game coincided with plenty of factors: A complete change in PC owner demographic, the rise of the internet and multiplayer games, the arrival of 3D, the golden age of many, many other genres (FPS, RPG, Stealth, RTS, Turn Based Strategy, Sim games)... it's all of these factors happening at the same time that killed adventure gaming back then.
I second what you said about DOTT. That game had the best puzzles I ever seen. The only game that came close that DOTT when it comes to fun, witty and original puzzles was Time Gentlemen Please.
And I don't consider myself a purist. I am a purist in the sense that I want puzzles in my adventure games, I want adventure games that require me to turn on my brain and creativity to overcome challenges, but I don't care much if said challenges are classic items on items puzzles or new gimmicks. Go ahead and invent new gimmicks or rip off existing ones I don't really care, as long my brain is still required to progress in the game I'm fine with gimmicks, I'd even like to see more if they make new types of puzzles and stories possible.
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:01:00
I remember sitting at the ECTS thing with Marek when Charles Cecil said point and clicks were dead. I always thought that was incorrect. There is a place for the 3D adventuring market certainly, but AGS is helping p&c's thrive.
m0ds, this one is for you! Charles Cecil eats his words! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1Ba_rdPHI
Interesting video, thanks :)
Quote from: Ascovel on Mon 30/05/2011 18:22:07
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:01:00
I remember sitting at the ECTS thing with Marek when Charles Cecil said point and clicks were dead. I always thought that was incorrect. There is a place for the 3D adventuring market certainly, but AGS is helping p&c's thrive.
m0ds, this one is for you! Charles Cecil eats his words! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1Ba_rdPHI
It happens around 5:00. IN YOUR FACE M********* !! ^__^
Excellent! That really made my day :D
that was an interesting little clip. Thanks for posting igor.
I wonder if people who bought the bass remake actually played it, or if it was purchased on a sheer brand recognition impulse and then simply tucked away and forgotten about (I'm asking the same about the MI remakes too). Boy, he's sitting on a couple of heavy weight brands there. I'm guessing he'll be able to sell any shite now as long as he slaps the revolution logo on top of it. That must be very tempting. Hope they don't let their fans down.
Quote from: Ascovel on Mon 30/05/2011 18:22:07
Quote from: Mods on Wed 03/11/2010 00:01:00
I remember sitting at the ECTS thing with Marek when Charles Cecil said point and clicks were dead. I always thought that was incorrect. There is a place for the 3D adventuring market certainly, but AGS is helping p&c's thrive.
m0ds, this one is for you! Charles Cecil eats his words! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1Ba_rdPHI
Haha, bloody brilliant! Thanks! That made my day also :) Really glad those words were eaten 8 years later!! Nom
And the future of Revolution sounds appealing. You can send me money personally for making Cecil think twice. By Wikipedia he actually means the long forgotten AGDzine... :P Oh - Is that Erin at 33 seconds? Or just a good lookalike? ;D
Good interview.
(http://screen7.adventuredevelopers.com/agdzine/images/comic_vb02.gif/bmi_orig_img/comic_vb02.gif)
(http://www.freewebs.com/spentertainment/WAGD.png)