I looked at Sam and Max 2 website and realized that adventure games are becoming modern.
Just wanted to ask, is it possible, some day or way, that we will see AGS 3D? Lucasarts is implementing their Grim Fandango engine and Larry 8 will be in 3D, too.
But 3D-characters in adventure games have existed since inventing of that technology (like in Alone in the dark series, for example)
Alone in the dark was an adventure? :o
well, wasn't it? Maybe too much Tomb-Raidery, but still, inventory items, a story/plot, adventure-gamey look and so on.
I'd just call it "an adventure game with endless arcade parts"... heh ;)
i did like grim fandango, but i still prefer the good old point & click.
and 3D games would be all harder
I've been looking high and low for a 3d adventure game engine, or a 3d engine I could convert to be an adventure game engine (with my extremely limted programming ability) 3D adventures wouldn't have to be harder to make really.. animation becomes easier I think. Graphically I'd find it about the same amount of work personally.
As for AGS, I don't think it could easily make a transition to 3d.. a whole new engine would probably be the same amount of work I would imagine.
I'd love to make an adventure that pushed the lmits of graphics ahrdware, because since scenes in adventures are so controlled you can increase detail and effects to higher levels than you could in any other game genre.. that's why historically adventures have often looked prettier than other games of their time I suppose.
I may sound a bit conservative but I don't like 3D adventuregames because:
A) 3D offers less or no atmosfere/livelyness to the game
B) 3D doesn't offer better features (if it would offer any other features it wouldn't be a point 'n click adventure)
But maybe I would accept 3D adventures if the characters had maybe cell shading to look cartoonish and the textures in the backgrounds would be hand painted (like disney).
Keep AGS 2D! (But don't listen to me, I'm just a 2D freak hehe)
3D requires much more technical knowledge.
The good thing about AGS is that anybody can make an adventure. All you need is a good story. Mock up some simple screens in MSPaint, bish bash bosh, you have an adventure. Also, the community has accepted that good graphics not a good adventure make and are willing to see beyond that.
3D however, when it's bad, it's not just ugly, it's technically unworkable.
I can see it now, cuboid objects with 2000 polys, texture sizes off the charts. Minimum requirements: a Pentium 500.
Art-wise it is MUCH more work than 2D. You have to model and bone a character animate it (which is much harder in 3D!), texture it properly, which goes for the environments as well, and everything has to be lit properly. All within probably strict technical boundries.
So I think a 3D AGS is a bad idea. If you want to make amateur 3D games, try Shockwave 3D first. You'll see it's no cakewalk!
Sorry, wrong answer.
The reason this will never happen.
FILE SIZE.
Plain and simple. These games are distributed over the internet. Any large 3D game of any 'real' quality would have to be a good 100MB, and I think that is being generous.
You could make a 100MB game with AGS fairly easily. Plugins, cut scene movies, stereo sound...
It's just not practical.
This thread could probably be in Adventure Chat. Not really a technical issue.
Not to mention, what you are proposing, 3D AGS, wouldn't be AGS anymore. Chris would have to rewrite everything I'm sure. If Chris is still doing this ten years from now, maybe. But I kind of doubt it.
Besides, if I'm not beating up hookers or blowing away aliens, I don't want 3D. ;D
later,
-junc
I download 100Mb files all the time.
So really, I don't think that's the issue.
I agree with the Belgian. Creating that amount of content is difficult and time consuming - plugins don't take much space and pre-rendered cutscenes are hard to make. Maybe music... but then there's mp3.
[Another reason is simply that Chris and us users want AGS to make games like the oldies. We don't want no stinking 3d.]
Heh...
I don't like 3d adventure games that much... I mean, I love nice smooth 3d graphics, but when it comes to adventure games, I really prefer 2d (and I am talking about 3rd person 2d, because I prefer 3d than 1st person 2d :P).
I mean, look at the S&M screenshots from the lucas arts site and then look at the concept art images... Which ones do u prefer? I prefer the concept art ones.
The same applied to MI3 and 4. While the gfx of MI4 were still beautiful, I prefered the gfx of MI3.
Anyway, this could be done using plug ins. It would be hard work, but still very possible. I mean, take GM for example. It is a proggy that is supposed to do any kind of 2d games only (but when it comes to adventure games, AGS is better). Then there was another guy who made a dll which holds functions like render, create cube, load 3d models etc, making 3d games very possible (and easy).
In case some veteran programmer is interested, I'll tell you how such a dll would work. The dll would allow the 2d game to be run in the background, exactly the same way it would run without it. The dll just renders the scene over the window of the 2d game. That's all. You could then use the functions to draw models where the characters/objects are located and stuff like that. Still, it's hard work but a possible solution.
All in all, if you really want to make a 3d adventure game (which is something I do not recommend) then AGS is not for you. You better try Blitz3d (nice) or DarkBasic (yuck), which are both easy for their capabilities.
Quote from: Privateer Puddin' on Sat 13/12/2003 20:13:13
Alone in the dark was an adventure? :o
I think it is. To me it's more adventure (not quest or action only) than any other, as it does contain not only quest puzzles but also a lot of action elements and that is the game where you can choose how to proceed ethier solve a puzzle or rush to attack. :P
*Scorpiorus remembers how he passed the worm directly knowing nothing about a secret passage in the Jeremy's Study. ;D
That is also why I like the QFG series.
As about 3d in AGS it depends on how much 3d you mean. Of course a whole 3d world would requre building the engine from scratch. On the other hand adding of 3d characters/objects, similar to how Guybrush suggests, seems possible to me. Plugins system should be able to handle this. So, we can have a prerendered background while the plugin renders the character on the fly replacing his view frames with those rendered bitmaps. Some sort of an Alone in the dark - style. Well, that method will lack for precious collision detection(baselines instead). Also diffiiculties related with camera (each room has it's own camera) directions may occur, i.e. if we have two cameras overlapping the same area, we should see both rooms with their objects and characters.
~Cheers
AGS will never become a full first-person 3D system. It is possible that 3D characters could make an appearance at some point (a-la Bioforge), but the engine just isn't designed for or suitable for a fully 3D environment.
Dang, Chris beat me to a comment.
I was gonna say that it might only be possible for the moment to have 3D characters and objects in an adventure game with AGS.
And prolly the next best thing to try and make AGS 3D like would be that you have the ability to save different images to be different room angles. EG: One would be facing the right wall, the other image would be you facing the left wall etc... But the only thing you could do is really change the bitmap of that scene. I know what I just said might not make sense, but thats becouse I just explain things badly.
But yeah, you would be limited in what you could do in 3d in ags.
Plus how many people really do program in 3d here? I use poser to make my characters, but does anyone else really do this type of stuff other than Danny and Terranrich?
Just my two blue cups.
Just thought of something stupid...
Since most users here are Windows users, maybe someone could create a 3D plugin for 3D NPC characters, and objects.
Thats one way of implementing 3D in AGS.
Although I cant see how with a plugin though you could make the playing character 3D.
JD
It's theoretically possible that a plugin could do it, though it might need a few extra API hooks into the AGS engine. Depends if there's anyone willing to take up the challenge, really ;)
Anyway, I keep on making a game with 3d-rendered backgrounds and 2d craracters. Just thought it could be much easier vice versa.
Yeah I think it is easier to do 3D Characters.
If someone does create a plugin for this, I will e-mail them my poser 2 3D character.
JD
Quote from: Joseph DiPerla on Sun 14/12/2003 22:56:43
If someone does create a plugin for this, I will e-mail them my poser 2 3D character.
This is what I meant: from what I can remember, Poser creates fairly hi-poly models that would require some substantial clean-up (by someone who understands 3D!!) before they will run smoothly and/or effeciently without the neeed for a super high spec PC.
My honest opinion would be, like others have said, that AGS is an oldie-adventure games creator, for those games we all love(d) so much. A plugin would be cool, but I don't think the core of AGS should be altered (just refined).
Also bear in mind Chris is making AGS for free and I think it is ridiculous to ask someone working on a free system to produce a 3d environment game creation system for us and still have a normal life. Introducing 3d would open a whole new can of worms into an already great system.
There are many 3d systems out there (blitzbasic, darkbasic, 3dgame maker... etc) that are already available. They have outdorr and indoor map maker progs/plugins available too. If 3d is that important to you (this is to no one in particular), I humbly suggest trying one of those systems. (I saw darkbasic for $20 USD - that's right)
QuoteI download 100Mb files all the time.
So really, I don't think that's the issue.
Sheit. Not everybody does. I get scared to download anything over a megabyte and a half.
And on topic about AGS 3D:
F*ck 3D.
--Snake
Quote from: Snake on Mon 15/12/2003 04:26:09
F*ck 3D.
;D Good point well made! ;D
3D has done more to make the gameplay experience mediocre than a handful of nepotistically employed publishers ever could!
"We need a better plot?"
"No way, just add a few thousand polys to the main character and add 'amazing 3D graphics with new tesselation technology' on the back of the box."
"Our last game sold terribly!"
"Really, we'd better rewrite the 3D engine then and make the sequel prettier."
Bah humbug!
James Kay touched on it earlier, AGS takes us back to the golden age of adventure gaming - when it was most popular, when the current technology suited it best, and simply, when the best games were made.
Whilst the '3D era' has seen a few decent adventures (I'd argue that out of the 3D adventure games, only Grim Fandango is a truly great game), we're never going to look back on the past 5 years and say it was a great time for adventure games. Not like we look back on the early 90s and try to recreate the feel and quality of those games, in 2D, the best format for adventure games.
AGS started as a nostalgia trip for me, but I think the era we look back on fondly to isn't go to change as time goes on. The heydey was then and probably will always be.
Then there's the simple fact that not as many people played adventure games (of which there were far less anyway) in recent times, so there's less people who are going to be looking back and saying 'those were great games, I want to make one like that', than there are people looking back on the 'golden age' I'm talking about.
Some people want to make 3D games yes, but AGS looks unlikely to be the engine that will suit them by any stretch of the imagination, IMO.
This thread has gone somewhat off-topic already, so I hope I'm not upsetting anyone by posting some non-AGS related thoughts on 3D.
I'm not as nostalgic about early point-n-click adventures as most others in the forum. Maybe because I'm nostalgic about the late text parser games from Sierra, like Colonel's Bequest, Police Quest 2 and Conquest of Camelot. And nobody really does that style anymore. So it's not as if I have much of a choice.
With the risk of starting a huge debate, I must say that I actually like 3D when it's done properly. But I'm not sure that's been done in true adventure games yet. I think Grim Fandango, while a great game, could easily have worked with drawn or possibly pre-rendered characters. The main difference, the controls, have nothing to do with 3D as such. In my book, GK3 is pretty much the only "true" 3D game, which was still a pure adventure (there might have been others, but less succesful).
The main feature added by 3D graphics with a movable camera (whether 1st person, 3rd person over-the-shoulder or 3rd person character-independent camera) is exploration. You can walk around objects, look under them, behind them, on top of them. As a designer you can actually hide things in the environment, and still expect them to be found without pixel hunting. Under a Killing Moon and its sequels did this very well, but the gameplay was hurt by the bad resolution of early 3D technology.
Whenever I play 3D shooters, it disappoints me that you have all these beautifully modelled surroundings and characters and all you do is put bullet holes in them. It's such a waste. In my mind, the perfect neo-adventure game would be a third-person game with a Max Payne-style over-the-shoulder view semi-attached to the character (similar to the first Hitman game, where you could move the camera in a half circle around the character without changing the way he was facing). And just like the Hitman games, you would have a cursor that would highlight whenever you moved it over interactable objects. When you clicked on them, you would have some sort of verb-coin or tlj-like interface. Character movement with keys, cursor movement with mouse.
Broken Sword 3 nearly did it right, except it removed mouse control and it added too many non-adventure obstacles (boxes, nuff said). As soon as some designer realizes that action-adventure graphics doesn't necessarily mean action-adventure gameplay, I think a lot of you are in for a pleasant surprise.
Well I'd definitely like to think that someone can do a really great adventure game in 3D. So far they've been mostly quite flawed I must say. I don't know if Sam And Max 2 will be true 3D but the look of the trailer is spot-on, it suits the style down to the ground - so if the game's going to look like that, it has a lot going for it.
Ultimately though, everything so far has led me to think 2D (point 'n' click) is the ideal format for the adventure. I like 3D in action-adventures, RPGs etc, but adventures seem to grate with it a little.
You're right about true 3D not being Grim-style, but with movable camera etc. - but AGS accomodating that is even more hard to imagine, as even less adventure games have done that. GK3 is the only one that immediately springs to mind.
QuoteWhenever I play 3D shooters, it disappoints me that you have all these beautifully modelled surroundings and characters and all you do is put bullet holes in them. It's such a waste. In my mind, the perfect neo-adventure game would be a third-person game with a Max Payne-style over-the-shoulder view semi-attached to the character (similar to the first Hitman game, where you could move the camera in a half circle around the character without changing the way he was facing). And just like the Hitman games, you would have a cursor that would highlight whenever you moved it over interactable objects. When you clicked on them, you would have some sort of verb-coin or tlj-like interface. Character movement with keys, cursor movement with mouse.
Broken Sword 3 nearly did it right, except it removed mouse control and it added too many non-adventure obstacles (boxes, nuff said). As soon as some designer realizes that action-adventure graphics doesn't necessarily mean action-adventure gameplay, I think a lot of you are in for a pleasant surprise.
Whoa, you took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't agree more.
If only Hitman 3 turned out like the original (and by that I mean that shooting your way through is near impossible, unlike the far too easy Hitman 2) I'd definitely consider that an adventure. The Thief games are also a couple of gems I'd like to think of as adventures. Not adventure games, but adventures. And they're damn close to being what I would think of as the perfect game.
I think AGS should remain as a point and click engine. 3D may be the way to go but I don't persnonally believe its the way AGS should go.
IMHO :p
Did 3D come first, or lense flare?
Why hop from foot to foot over the desire for 3D when there's so many stages in between to look for... I'd like to see layered backgrounds that scroll at different speeds, and I'd like to see the lighting feature developed further.
I can't see any reason why an engine specfically designed for retro-style game creation needs to try and compete with such things as the appauling Monkey Island 4 and friends...
Forget about 3d, CJ needs to work on getting that "Make my game" option working properly
Personally, I agree that 3D is not needed in AGS at the moment.
I think it has still some minor things to create like Sub-Rooms for lockers and stuff.
I even think that it should implement all the features, or most of the features that the plugins have.
But I think we could all hold off on the 3D. Especially like I said before, we dont have a lot of 3D designers here.
Dont get me wrong. I dont doubt the power of 3D. And I think if something was well thought out, a 3D adventure game could be made.
I think if anyone wants 3D, make a plugin. Its the only good thing to do at this point.
JD
If you want to build a 3D game, there's the 3D Adventure Studio (http://3das.noeska.com/).
(The link was on the AGS links page ;D)
These people are working on building a 3D adventure game engine. It's just in alpha right now though.
Thanks for the link, Dragonrose. That engine looks very interesting. It definitely has potential.
Quote from: James Kay on Mon 15/12/2003 06:54:06
Quote from: Snake on Mon 15/12/2003 04:26:09
F*ck 3D.
;D Good point well made! ;D
3D has done more to make the gameplay experience mediocre than a handful of nepotistically employed publishers ever could!
"We need a better plot?"
"No way, just add a few thousand polys to the main character and add 'amazing 3D graphics with new tesselation technology' on the back of the box."
"Our last game sold terribly!"
"Really, we'd better rewrite the 3D engine then and make the sequel prettier."
Bah humbug!
This is really not a very solid point. The first thing that comes to mind is the fairly mediocre Runaway, and to me it seems as if the developers said:
"We need a better plot?"
"No way, just add 2D 1024x768 resolution support and put 'Highest resolution ever used in an adventure game!' on the back of the box." (by the way, it DOES say that on the box)
3D has allowed many games to provide unprecented immersian and non-linearity that is simply not possible in a 2d environment. Now, the type of games one strives to make in AGS do not require this, as their strengths lie elsewhere. I'm not arguing for inclusion of a 3d engine in AGS, but mindless 3d-bashing (of all the things to bash, geez...) is pointless to begin with.
I cant see why we always have to change the old stuff.. all the time there come new stuff and the old stuff go away.. like , i collect the old Sega Master System.. and i yust love to play it.. I actually starting to get sick of the new grapich,, and now its only shoot and kill games (almost,its also sportsgames.) and when monkey island was made there was also humor.. and i think thats important in a game.. Maybe the new sam and max and Larry games have humor, thay actually should have humor, if not i wouldent even try the demo, since i think that if a Sam and Max game or a Larry game dont have humor, then its not a S&M game or a Larry game.. and yust think about the grapich on the monkey island game.. the characters looks so good, and i think that wasent easy to make them, at least not for a normal guy without no skills in drawing (animation), for example me.. I dont know but theres something special with the old games, maybe because i grew up with them..