Guys,
I thought you might find this very useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_and_video_game_clich%C3%A9s
Don't do any of these when you make a game...!
Interesting but it's quite difficult to avoid all of these. If you're making an rpg, for example and you don't have to save the world, or your other hald, or someone has killed your family, or burnt down your hometown, there's no reason really to go after thebad guy (who has to exist, generally speaking). If I was the main character I would just stay home, with my loving family...
Unless the main character is just a mazochist who loves, adventures... In which case, well, it sounds a bit silly to me. :)
I would argue that a game using all of the cliches would be quite enjoyable.
It would be an interesting challenge to come of with just such a scenario (the non-cliche RPG), though I envision I'd only end up with a rip-off of Don Quixote.
Cliches are part of the succes formula.
Look are music and you will see that pop music (about cliche lovesongs) dominate the charts.
The reasons why people use cliches is because they work.
Avoiding cliches will not make your game succesfull, just weird.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article255.asp
I think this link contains every motivation a character can have.
More weird games!
I agree. The mainstream bores the hell out of me. I never listen to the crap they play on the radio, as I have heard that song thousands of times before. The same with goes for games.
Clichés are for the fools who are not smart or experienced enough to figure them out.
Quote from: simulacra on Mon 12/09/2005 18:44:34
Clichés are for the fools who are not smart or experienced enough to figure them out.
i think that some of us could be offended by this quote.
Anyways, what would be really interesting and maybe it's allready happening to Hollywood, is to make a research on what makes a movie, game or song a succes and construct one according to the research.
For example, if the research shows that you need 12% nudity, 25% violence, 13% romance, 50% sponsorship, try that for an indie movie: Make 12 minutes of sex, 25 minutes of the guy kiling everything in his way, 13 minutes of him talking to her and the other way around and 50 minutes of ads. ;)
Those "video game cliches" are cliched for a reason-- they've worked out well for the games. Why do you think those phrases the word cliche originally describes are so tired out? They display exactly how people feel about something in a few easily understood words.
I feel many of those cliches are good to use, but you can't have them all at once. In the quest for glory games each "quest" had similar motivations behind them, "do it or it will destroy the world!". It worked out well, and didn't seem like a copy of some celtic/egyptian/african/german/greek rpg game that came before it. The whole reason so many games are great is because of the characters, plot, and puzzles.
But then again there are only two RPGs I ever played, as these cliches seem to best apply to a Role Playing Game, which were Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time and the QFG series. Zelda was as whitebread as adventure games could be, and Quest for Glory (as I know I've said before) was the greatest 5 games I have ever played.
Somehow it doesn't surprise me that it'd take a group of adventure game fans to defend clichés.
If you really sit down and think about it, there is so little to begin with:
In order to do something, and to have a game, the hero/heroine must have a motivation. Well what could drive a guy/gal go against the whole world? Love, Hate, Revenge! That's all. And then you can add anything you want to it.
After all one of the greatest book of Fantasy (Tolkien), was full of cliches (or maybe now it seems this way, after it's been copied so many times). And if you think about it all Mythologies, seem to have very much in common. The Earth, the Sun, The water, blah, blah, Vengful god puts rain on the earth. Only one will survive to save the earth (it is there with Noe, and in Greek Mythology and I think also in Indian). So really there is so little originality everywhere.
Can anybody tell me the most original game played? Is there a thread for that?
Eg. After Tetris there is the Chaos...
The same with Dungeon Master... etc.
One is definitely Executive Suite, another is The Incredible Machine. Not to mention Alter Ego, The Sims, Sim City, Civilization, Alpha Centauri, Populous, Noctis, Silent Hill 2, The Ring and Uplink.
http://www.the-underdogs.org/theme.php?id=27
Not exactly anti-cliché. Some of those games have something that puts them outside the world of cliché: Lack of plot (TIM, The Sims, Sim City). They do have definable goals that may buck the usual trends somewhat, but having no characters or not having to provide motivation for the player (other than passing a puzzle), isn't something easily implemented in an RPG or Adventure. Similarly, some FPS games could be said to avoid cliché (rarely), but it's usually the ones that more-or-less forego the plotline altogether.
The others have very clichéd motivations, even if the overall concept or development thereof is unique. You still have characters who are transported to a strange new world, whose world has gone askew, who have to fight an ancient evil, etc. If Silent Hill 2 counts as a non-clichéd game then a multitude of games are less restricted. While I haven't played 1/3 of the games on the list, I still think saying TIM is without trite elements is like saying the same for solitaire.
Quote from: simulacra on Mon 12/09/2005 18:44:34
I agree. The mainstream bores the hell out of me. I never listen to the crap they play on the radio, as I have heard that song thousands of times before. The same with goes for games.
Clichés are for the fools who are not smart or experienced enough to figure them out.
As said by Squidworth from the Spongebob movie: "You can't fool me! -I- listen to public radio."
I think the biggest cliche of all is people talking about how they don't listen to popular music, etc. There's nothing wrong with that, but if your motivation for that is because you want to appear outside the square, then I'd rather be a Britany Spears fan any day.
As has been said before, cliches are fine. That word gets banded about all over the place as the horror or all horrors, but it just means that something is used a lot. I'll occasionally say that something in a game is `SUCH a cliche` but when I say that, I mean that on top of being a cliche, it has nothing else to offer. Whereas 99% of other cliches used out there don't get a mention from me because they're used well.
My RPG is gonna have, yes, a cliches storyline. Saving the world. If people don't like it, that's fine. If they don't like it BECAUSE it's a cliche and for no other good reason, then I feel sorry that they're going to go through their life missing out on tonnes of great experiences for the fear of being seen as `mainstream`.
...and dare I point out the irony of these people that avoid popular music and instead favour, *ahem*, `alternative` music.
The bottom line is that it doesn't matter WHAT you like, as long as you like it because you like it, you enjoy it, it makes you happy, whatever.
There's a big difference between *having* a cliché and *being* cliché. If you're gonna avoid 'em, there's very little left to enjoy. There are also somethings that aren't cliché but thought of as such. For example, your character's parents die and he seeks vengeance. Neither parents dying nor wanting revenge are clichéd but extreme examples of real-life happenings and the reactions they cause. Using such an occurance as your only plot device of merit. . . that's cliché.
What matters is that the experience as a whole surpasses the limitations imposed by being common. DOTT is comprised primarily of them but the game is anything but.
Excuse my lack of accents over e's. I don't want to bother with ascii or the character map.
1. It is important to distinguish between cliche and trope.
It is possible, for example to have a story that is about a princess kidnapped by an evil dragon that is not cliche. It is not, however, possible to have a story about a helpless princess captured by an evil dragon saved by a handsome knight that is not to some degree cliche. Even Shrek, which bent the trope, still ended up feeling a little cliche.
2. Cliches are never good in good writing, unless occasionally when being parodied or commented upon. However, cliches are occasionally necessary. Trope are virtually unavoidable, and often desirable.
3. Popular does not = good, any more than it is equal to bad. They are two separate concepts. In adventure game language, we can agree that adventure games are currently fairly unpopular (at least compared, say, to FPS game), but that does not make them not good. Therefore, unpopular is not equal to bad. However, in its time, Monkey Island was relatively popular. Popular is not equal to bad. I don't want to get into popular but "bad" games, though I would argue there are many. I'm sure you can think of your own examples.
4. There is no reason to set your highest sights at the lowest art that exists. Your game could be the best in the world in some category. Unless you are Igor or Loominous or someone similar, you're unlikely to ever have the best graphics (in terms of generally appreciated artistic quality). As has been pointed out, few games have yet made the same level of artistry as the average film or published novel. Some games have, as I would argue say Grim Fandango (in style, if not substance), Final Fantasy VI (in emotional content if not characterization) and a few others. But all games are capable of being great expressions of "gameness" (like Tetris, pure beautiful gameplay, or Mario-Kart) or of art (say, for starters, at the 2001 A Space Odyssy level, or Homage to Catalonia, or Pride and Prejudice, or They Might Be Giant's "Flood" or whatever your favourite piece of art is).
5. It is therefore possible that a great RPG could be made that was not about saving the world (this is a trope [an archetype, actually, ed], not a cliche, in my view) and be great transcendent art. Terrinigma was one RPG that started to build against the more cliche aspects of saving the world. It is also possible to avoid many other well-tread realms of game making and create something new and truly "out-there"--Too many writers start from tropes or cliches and do very little to challenge or build on them. RL & BAT is a good example of "out there" -- though today it is buggy, a little rough (with some weak humour), and it is not everyone's cup of cocoa (here I twist an old cliche), the game pushed enough boundaries and questioned enough Adventure game tropes [archetype!] and cliches to be on my very small list of truly experimentally artistic games.
Myself, I would like to start from tropes [types, I think, possibly archetypes] and then dissolve them, corrupt them and wedge them apart until nothing is left but aspects under a magnifying glass, recursive reflections on a genre, a feedback loop that either must become parody or dark irony, though I have largely failed so far.
6. That prejudice towards unique art that stands apart from the mass, the culture melange does not exclude one from self-consciously making a genre piece. It just is meant as encouragement (and self-encouragement) to open up more creative avenues as well.
To sum up: Cliches almost always bad, tropes [archetypes/types] often unavoidable, but it is possible to collapse them, most easily from the inside than without.
----------------
How to Avoid Cliches
I just wanted to add this edit. It's a trick I learned in First or Second year creative writing at University, and I've adapted it a bit into a system. It's pertinent to this conversation so I thought I'd take a moment to share it.
First of all, there is also a distinction between cliche and hack. Hack (hackney), in my view, is closer to plagarism than cliche, which is closer than trope. If you have this feeling that something has been done before, it's probably hack. Hack is often unintended, but is harmful. If you write something that feels too wonderful to be your own first thought, ask yourself if you've heard of it before, and then ask your friends. Chances are you saw it somewhere obscure, but they stole it from the muppet show. Or something. If everybody's heard of it, then it's cliche.
Anyway, this technique fixes hack, cliche and reliance on tropes. Take something that could be cliche. Let's say Princess kidnapped by wily dragon, saved by prince. A trope with cliche aspects. Now break it down into its component parts. This is step one. You have a kidnapping, a dragon who kidnaps, a princess who is captured, and a rescuing prince. This next part is called "riffing" according to my prof. You take one aspect and "riff" off it until you have something relatively new. I could say shuffle the order and just make the dragon rescue the prince from the wily princess. But that's more of a simple twist, it could go further. Robert Munch would make the princess rescue herself from the stupid dragon and then from the stupid prince. Those Shrek guys would make the prince an ogre and the real prince a monster. But it could go farther. What if instead of a dragon, we have a garden gnome. That's parody. Okay, what about if we made it a snake. Say in a garden instead of a castle. Now that's leaning towards symbolism. What about if we set it in modern times.
The more you riff, the more you see what alternatives are out there. You can riff each aspect or the whole idea. Once you do your riffing, think, "could this work this way." If not, why not? Is it just because it's too weird or too original? Or does it break the tone you want? If none of those, maybe you're just getting too stuck in pre-concieved ideas. Really think about what it would mean if the prince was being rescued from a princess by another prince?
So isolate aspects, riff, consider and analyze, riff again. Decide whether you want something wholly distinct from the original cliche/hackneyed idea/trope, or whether you want something reminiscent. Once you have a jockey rescuing a german fishmonger and his daughter from their pathological fear of snakes in modern times, you're maybe losing the original idea, but possibly onto something new.
So that's how I was taught to break cliches (though I don't always do it-- because I'm lazy). Try this one: "Post-apocolyptic future in the desert with images of the "big brother" figure on the wall. An uprising starts from a dark, unwilling hero" -- what could change here and what would it mean?
Just trying to share! Sorry if this is too off-topic! :)
As always I couldn't read all the content of a thread, but it's quite interesting to me that this thread had become a GTD. :D
As point & click adventure games are outdated, they won't be any more cliched than any other surviving game genres like FPS, RTS, RPG, etc., not any more, at least... So you don't really care about this aspect if you're really brave enough to create an adventure game which is expected to be outdated, ancient and unpopular.
Just kidding, of course. :=
Nice! It was an interesting read, bspeers. But, could you clarify what trope and hack mean, as well as exactly what the distinction between them and cliche is? I've never ever heard of trope before.
I really liked your post bspeers. Great analysis!
I am sorry if I sounded a bit grumpy earlier in the thread. Clichés can be fine, but it depends on how they are used. The morfology of the narration remains the same (which can be said to be cliché), but as bspeers points out so nicely - it all depends on how it is constructed.
After having played many (or all) game genres there is, I have noticed that clichés have stopped working on me. Instead of being awed by the prospect that I need to save the world, I keep thinking "Why does it always have to be the whole world, why not just save the suburb I live in or that sad kid in school nobody cared for?" Though there still is the saving the ... goal, something more innovative would raise my interest in the game.
Now, have a look at this: http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
It applies to RPG clichés mainly, but is still applicaple to other games as well. Many of these clichés happen because of limitations in the medium. For example, when talking to the same character several times, you get the same replies. The character is supposed to be a human being but certainly does not act like one. When designing System Shock, Warren Spector said that "If we can't make them act like humans, we won't have them" (not the exact wording) and made a devoid space station with traces of humans to tell a story. He avoided a cliché by surpassing it.
Kinoko: I never said that I didn't like the mainstream because it was mainstream. I dislike it because it is so predictable. I realise that there are many people that like the comfort of predictability, but I get bored of it whether it is music or games. The french sociologist Pierre Bourdieu has written an interesting book: "On television", which has lots of thoughts on why mediums are locked into the mainstream. The main theory is that investors want to be sure that the product is received well to get revenue. I'd say the same goes for many indie designers - you want to make something that you are sure works, not spend your time on some strange experiment.
Hmm, it seems I have the wrong definition of "trope" at least in the classical usage (though I am using it how I have seen it among other writers).
Trope is actually any use of figeratives, metaphors, similie, synechtoche (my spelling may be off) that changes the meaning of the word, but that's not how I'm using it here. Perhaps, instead of "trope" I should have said "archetype" or "type".
Archetype you probably know, but just to be absolutely clear, here is a list from most general and widely used to most closely copied:
Archetype: Broad idea, the original concept from which copies are made. Joseph Campbell was always obsessed with these, saw them shared in all societies. I disupte his research methods, but it was in part his analysis of basic archetypes that led his friend George Lucas to create the film of archetypes, Star Wars. Basically everything that happens in episodes 4-6 is an archetype. The hero's journey is the most famous of these among filmmakers.
Type: A generally understood person, or event or whatnot. Like the older librarian. We know the type and little more has to be said to recognize them. So the forlorn prince is a type that may be in the archetype of the hero's journey against an evil foe.
Stock/Flat: An event or a person is one of these if they are basically just a mesh of types and stereotypes with little or no variation. The overweight schoolyard bully is a type and is often a stock character. He is flat if he never changes or breaks from the mold in any way. The quest to find one's father is a bit of a stock quest, and it would be flat if not twisted in some way.
The above are all borrowed, un-riffed ideas. As we move down the list, though, there are more clearly stolen ideas, if at first unintentional.
Cliche: In literary terms, this is usually something so overused that it has lost its original meaning. The stock character of the bully of course has a couple of goons who are afraid of him. And the hero says "You can't get away with this!" -- what does the villain say? It's so obvious it is beneath comment. A lot of sayings are cliche when used in art, such as "A penny saved is a penny earned" --but that is not a cliche in itself. It's just a saying. If, however, you used it as the moral of a story, or as a character's realization, it would be cliche (accent over e). For example. "It was that day [hackneyed] that David learned that a penny saved is a penny earned [cliche]." Or if you were to work one into a description, "Jennifer was as cold as ice [cliche], but Jeff played it cool as a cucumber [cliche]" or into a situation "In this puzzle the hero [archetype] must outsmart the stupid bully [stock] to save his girl [cliche]" -- these can all be okay if you're commenting on them--like to have a 50's character, he might actually say "Cool as a cucumber" -- but even then it might be worth riffing a bit.
Hack: Comes from hackney, which originally had something to do with horses, but now refers to something that is used, or over-used. You can spot a hack comedian or performer because everything they say is funny and none of it sounds like it came from their own experience--it all feels familiar. It's hack writing to say "The sun came up in a blaze of glory" --it's not quite cliche, but it is over-used. Hacks sometimes unintentionally use a common idea or theme that is just floating around, sometimes actually steal a line or an image or a way of doing something and then just change it slightly so it isn't plagarism.
Plagarism: One step down further from hack. You know what this means. Stolen material, uncredited. Usually fairly original material ripped off directly. This is different than a sample or sampling, which just takes a bit and re-contextualizes/decontextualizes it.
Even a plagarized idea can work--many great writers and artists admit to stealing an idea--but most who are truly better than hacks and thieves actually riff quite a bit to create something more original. They may not call it riffing though.
Now, here we have someone (bspeers), who has obviously tried really hard to avoid cliches. (like goefkhan??). But I feel that I need to add, just one little comment.
I'm giving here a definition (though maybe not correct), to have somewhere to stand on:
Originality is the opposite of cliche!
So, generally speaking it's always good to be original in your ideas. But the fact remains, that the more you know, about a subject (or an art, music, poetry, games, movies, all), the more you can avoid repeating something allready said.
Meaning: I have been studying music from the age of 5 (now 28). This gives me 23 years of experience in music. I have heard a lot of music. Well! And as a composer I give my best to being original (not allways, true...). But with all this knowledge of music comes the alteration of ourselves, without really knowing it. Ask yourselfes: What kind of a game, would someone make, if he had never played any adventure game before. Would his puzzles be original, crap?
All I'm really saying is that the influences we have are always strong. When they are too strong, or when we are part of an , then we have cliches. When we are an indie, small company that does what it does for the fun and not for money, then we get probably originality.
And one last thing: Since I've scratched it, what about sensorship? And self-sensorship? Do we make things in a different way than we would want to, just because we're afraid? I have to admit, that I do... :-\
Quote from: simulacra on Tue 13/09/2005 15:22:19
Kinoko: I never said that I didn't like the mainstream because it was mainstream. I dislike it because it is so predictable. I realise that there are many people that like the comfort of predictability, but I get bored of it whether it is music or games. The french sociologist Pierre Bourdieu has written an interesting book: "On television", which has lots of thoughts on why mediums are locked into the mainstream. The main theory is that investors want to be sure that the product is received well to get revenue. I'd say the same goes for many indie designers - you want to make something that you are sure works, not spend your time on some strange experiment.
Yeah, I know. I honestly wasn't having a go at you, it was just that what you -said- made me think of people who ARE like that, so I was having a go at them in general.
The idea of going with cliches is very tempting because we all like those games, but why not come up with original ideas? don't you want people to love your stuff? Or do you want people to love yours stuff because it's reminiscent of a classic game? I prefer coming up with my own thing.
Classic AGS clichés:
- The game takes place in space (or a Mandatory Space Quest Reference)
- There are pirates involved (or Mandatory Monkey Island Reference)
- You're a cop/detective of some sort
- It's a medieval fantasy world
- Fourth wall is broken
- Use key on door "puzzle"
- DOTT-like graphics
And not to be confused with cliches, but more like trademarks:
- Blecup is in the game
- the name Chris or Jones or Chris Jones is in the game
Don't forget two of the must-haves: Grave robbing and tombstones with funny/dirty limericks and rhymes.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Wed 14/09/2005 19:41:46
Don't forget two of the must-haves: Grave robbing and tombstones with funny/dirty limericks and rhymes.
How did I forget those? :'(
Quote from: Edmundo on Wed 14/09/2005 17:39:43
The idea of going with cliches is very tempting because we all like those games, but why not come up with original ideas? don't you want people to love your stuff? Or do you want people to love yours stuff because it's reminiscent of a classic game? I prefer coming up with my own thing.
Classic AGS clichés:
- The game takes place in space (or a Mandatory Space Quest Reference)
- There are pirates involved (or Mandatory Monkey Island Reference)
- You're a cop/detective of some sort
- It's a medieval fantasy world
- Fourth wall is broken
- Use key on door "puzzle"
- DOTT-like graphics
And not to be confused with cliches, but more like trademarks:
- Blecup is in the game
- the name Chris or Jones or Chris Jones is in the game
You're saying that space games, medival games and cop are automaticly clichés.
W-R-O-N-G!!!11!And there are a milion si-fi, fantasy and murder mistery books and writers who can prove you wrong.
If people would listen to you, then there wouldn't be ANY games made. Except for Dr. Mario, if he is a real doctor. Oh, wait. Using Mario is also a cliché.
As last: If I want to make a
bluecup reference or a use-key-on-door puzzle (read any yatzee articles or something?) then I'll do so, and nobody is going to tell me not to.
Quote from: jetxl on Wed 14/09/2005 20:07:28
You're saying that space games, medival games and cop are automaticly clichés.
W-R-O-N-G!!!11!
And there are a milion si-fi, fantasy and murder mistery books and writers who can prove you wrong.
He's talking about AGS clichés. And he hit the nail there. 90% of AGS games are either scifi, fantasy or detective stories. And thus, my current project is pretty cliché. But I've never been a really big Space Quest fan, so could we let it pass? ::)
Yeah, Jet, pay attention! And I was just admiring that you're out there making board games and other non-space/detective/medieval games with AGS...
And as I said about the trademarks, they're not clichés. In fact, there's a 99% chance that there'll be a bluecup in my game... it's like an unspoken rule. :P
Quote from: Lucky on Wed 14/09/2005 21:34:35
He's talking about AGS clichés. And he hit the nail there. 90% of AGS games are either scifi, fantasy or detective stories. And thus, my current project is pretty cliché. But I've never been a really big Space Quest fan, so could we let it pass? ::)
90% of ALL the games have a si-fi, fantasy or murder mystery setting. So claiming this is mearly an AGS cliché is also un-true.
I say that ags games are in general more original than commercial games.
How many space quest games and monkey island games have there been made in AGS? No more than 10 in total. How many football games has EA made?
Got my point?
Quote from: Edmundo on Wed 14/09/2005 22:49:24
And as I said about the trademarks, they're not clichés. In fact, there's a 99% chance that there'll be a bluecup in my game... it's like an unspoken rule. :P
So just because you happen to like a cliché, it's suddenly
not a cliché? How convenient. :=
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Wed 14/09/2005 23:22:40
Quote from: Edmundo on Wed 14/09/2005 22:49:24
And as I said about the trademarks, they're not clichés. In fact, there's a 99% chance that there'll be a bluecup in my game... it's like an unspoken rule. :P
So just because you happen to like a cliché, it's suddenly not a cliché? How convenient. :=
lol... yes :D
I don't know... I think of a cliché in terms of more like it's part of the setting, the story, or the challenge. bluecup is like our dirty little secret in-joke.
Jet, I was just pointing out some ags clichés just for fun. I wasn't necessarily criticizing or saying that it's bad. And I don't even want to get started with what the mainstream games industry does!
Quote from: jetxl on Wed 14/09/2005 23:00:2690% of ALL the games have a si-fi, fantasy or murder mystery setting. So claiming this is mearly an AGS cliché is also un-true.
Touché.
QuoteHow many space quest games and monkey island games have there been made in AGS?
I think he meant games that have obviously been influenced by those games. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, those are good games after all. But too many games have been influenced too much by them.
Commercial games have actual reasons to be unoriginal. AGS games shouldn't have those limitations.
Something said earlier here really rung true for me:
"I keep thinking "Why does it always have to be the whole world, why not just save the suburb I live in or that sad kid in school nobody cared for?"
There are some good reasons to have the player quest to save the world, or avenge his family/lover/friend/dog, but there are also a whole LOT of bad ones. How many games have heroes who fight to save a world that's so incredibly cardboard it would tip over in a strong wind? Or who seek to avenge family that we never really meet, and have no real reason to care about?
A game where you save one person whom you care about would be good. Not too many games have that, although the forced failure to save somebody that you care about is surprisingly common. Maybe computer game writers are worried that we'll get repulsed by sentimentality unless it's crushed at some point.
SPOILERS FOR CHRONO TRIGGER:
In the classic RPG Chrono Trigger, there's an overarching Save the World plot that manages to work. However, it's introduced well after the player has seen a bit of the world itself, and has gone on a few quests to help other characters. More importantly, the player sees what will happen to the world if it is not saved before even being told that the PC is going to save it.
In other words, there's emotional involvement here. But the overarching save the world plot is nonetheless the least interesting and entertaining thing in the game. Well, that, and Crono, the lead PC. More interesting is the sideplot where Crono dies, and the player can ressurect him, resulting in a blissful reunion with love-interest Marle and a sentimental music box theme song. It's heavy handed, but it WORKS. And it's not the death itself that makes the plot work. It's Marle's response. Without Marle, this wouldn't have been much of a plot twist. She isn't well-written, or deep, but she makes the emotional pull.
Likewise, without somebody who actually cares, and is worth caring about, the Save the World plot can't hold up. Computer and video game players are willing to invest a lot of imagination in the barest outlines of a character, but you have to give imagination if you want to get some back.
Apparently, saving the world is a considered a "teenage power fantasy", where usually young people want to do something that will change the whole world. As you grow older, the feeling starts to go away and you have other wishes in your mind... whatever they are because I'm young and I still want to save the world! :)
Monkey Island 1 was about saving the day, but Monkey Island 2 wasn't. I love Monkey Island 2 because it's not really about becoming a great (goofball) hero, but it's about saving your ass from being a complete failure because everything has gone down the drain... and that's what makes those games uniquely enjoyable since their themes are completely different. Final Fantasy is always about saving the world in every single game, no matter how much the plot and characters and graphics change.
Oh, and I forgot to mention the most annoying adventure game cliché puzzle ever.
I'll present it in step-by-step format. After I give each clue, try to guess the puzzle's resolution. Score yourself at the end.
Spoiler
1. There is a locked door in front of you.
Spoiler
2. It has the kind of keyhole you can look through normally...
Spoiler
3. But the keyhole is blocked by something on the other side.
Spoiler
4. There is a gap under the door.
Spoiler
5. You have a sheet of paper.
Spoiler
6. You have a thin, bladed instrument.
SOLUTION:
Spoiler
7. Slide the paper under the door. Poke the keyhole with the instrument, knocking the key onto the paper. Pull the paper and key back under the door. Use the key to open the door.
If you guessed:
Before clue 1: You are an experienced adventure gamer who apparently shares my opinion as to what the world's most overused puzzle is, and you don't need clues to guess it. Let us sulk in quiet bitterness together.
On the first clue: You saw the puzzle and the solution as soon as you saw the barest outline of the setup. There are only so many overused puzzles, after all.
On the second or third clue: Either you've seen this one before, and you know what that clue automatically means, or you're very good at working out puzzles.
On the fourth clue: You either have seen this puzzle, but the other clues didn't jog your memory, or else you are quite resourceful.
On the fifth or sixth clue: You're solving this for the first time. Prepare to solve it many more times if you play adventure games much.
Didn't solve it: Oh, come on. It wasn't that hard.
-
A few games that use this puzzle, named as I remember them:
Zork 2 (I believe it was 2)
Lost in Time (Clever but needlessly baroque variation on the theme)
Anchorhead
Zork: Grand Inquisitor
Broken Sword 3
Sherlock Holmes: Case of the Rose Tattoo (I found this by Googling some key phrases, so to speak, and getting the walkthrough)
Dark Fall
Midnight Nowhere (Found by Googling another phrase)
Hugo 2: Whodunnit
And SO MANY MORE.
That particular puzzle isn't just over-used, it's essentially useless; it's no longer a puzzle. They may as well avoid wasting your time and just let you push open the door.
I had an inkling as soon as you said cliché puzzle. I was 90% certain after the first, and would've bet my mother's organs after the second.
You keep referencing Chrono-Trigger. I can't help but agree, the game had a certain draw that the very similar FF games lacked. Thank goodness for emulators, otherwise I would've missed out.
There's another cliché plot device that I think relates to your "Forced" topic: Removing your inventory. Occasionally it serves as a quick way to clean your character's pockets of useless items, but it'd be better to lose them after they've lost their usefulness. It's similar to the death-of-a-loved-one device - after all, what are you more attached to in an adventure game than your inventory? I weep everytime I'm thrown in a dungeon without my items and have to resort to using a crust of bread from a prison meal to attract a mouse whom I then train to fetch me the keys (it's more frequent than common sense would have you believe).
* The sad thing about the door puzzle is that it was once a good one. Zork 2 used it well. In a fantasy environment where you might conceivably run into a door with that security weakness, it was actually a very nice puzzle. But I've spent YEARS looking for doors with that security hole, and I've only found a few, in very old buildings.
I believe that puzzle is like a secret handshake between game designers and adventure gamers. It's often underclued, as it was in Dark Fall, so you have to know it in advance to solve it in some cases.
* Another super-cliché puzzle involves a door with a handprint/fingerprint scanner.
I don't need to say anymore, do I? Is this even a puzzle anymore?
* Yet another is the "I don't have a flathead screwdriver. All I have is what's in my wallet" puzzle. I'm guilty of this one in the one full-length adventure game I've written. It's a filler puzzle. Nobody has to think about it - not the player, not the designer.
* Chandeliers exist to be swung upon and/or dropped.
* A person with no experience in these matters can quickly open a supposedly secure lock or set of handcuffs with a hairpin or a credit card. It's EASY! This is why the police always remove a woman's hairpins when they arrest her, just in case!
* Reflective objects always reflect spells.
* Any trap found in a tomb will be operational after thousands of years, even if it requires continual resetting or perpetual motion. Gabriel Knight 3 has an INCREDIBLY bad case of this when it suddenly goes brain-dead in the endgame. To quote the comic Absurd Notions, the ancients were very clever with counterweights.
* Also, the ancients were very clever with chessboards.
* If there's a conversation menu in the "Choose an attitude" format, choose very carefully, since you can make bad mistakes. If it's in the "Choose a sentence" format, this is less likely. If it's in the "Choose a subject to ask about" format, you are required by adventure game law not only to be reckless, but to ask about every single topic. It's practically noninteractive.
* By the way, the ancients were ALSO very clever with levers and runes and wheels.
* But they never invented the safety deposit box.
* Either you can't die, or death is frequent and maybe a bit unfair.
* Prison cells contain straw beds and whatever else you need to set a distracting fire.
* Secret passages are frequently connected to not-so-secret triggers, like a candle or a book. You know, things that anybody dusting the room might stumble on. That's what makes them SUPER SECRET.
* If it's guarding a door and can't be bribed, fooled by disguise, distracted, or killed, it will have a riddle for you.
* People always tear off the top sheet of a memo pad after writing something on it. However, in order to be fair to you, the player, they press really hard with the pencil, so you know what to do.
* Vines exist to be swung from, fashioned into crude ropes, or both.
* You're wandering around the big city, and you need a screwdriver. The man who could loan you a screwdriver says he wants a squid-and-pickle sandwich. You must therefore find a squid and a pickle and bread. You cannot go to the hardware store and buy a screwdriver, because there is no hardware store you can visit in the entire big city. Anyway, you don't have money, even though you know people you could conceivably borrow from.
But even if you did have money, and could go to the hardware store, you wouldn't.
Because that man wants a squid-and-pickle sandwich, gosh darn it, and you're gonna get it to him come fire or flood or killer squid that resent being made into sandwich filling.
Quote from: Wellington on Sun 18/09/2005 15:17:58
* Secret passages are frequently connected to not-so-secret triggers, like a candle or a book. You know, things that anybody dusting the room might stumble on. That's what makes them SUPER SECRET.
*lol* I've got a vision: "The coincidental adventure of Harriet, the cleaning lady"! ;D
Quote from: Wellington on Sun 18/09/2005 15:17:58
* Another super-cliché puzzle involves a door with a handprint/fingerprint scanner.
I don't need to say anymore, do I? Is this even a puzzle anymore?
I don't know, it can actually be interesting still depending upon the method. After all, there are several ways of getting past these things in real life. As a puzzle, there are 3 fairly different paths to choose.
Quote
* If there's a conversation menu in the "Choose an attitude" format, choose very carefully, since you can make bad mistakes. If it's in the "Choose a sentence" format, this is less likely. If it's in the "Choose a subject to ask about" format, you are required by adventure game law not only to be reckless, but to ask about every single topic. It's practically noninteractive.
This one's someone overused, the other half of the problem is laziness or lack of imagination. After all, who wants to come up with / type / script in dozens of dialogue choices when you only need to get one peice of information from somebody? (Lucasarts in many of there adventure games, and I still love 'em for it)
Quote* If it's guarding a door and can't be bribed, fooled by disguise, distracted, or killed, it will have a riddle for you.
If it's not liquid, solid or gas, it's probably plasma. Really, how many other options are there? I despise the riddle thing unless it doesn't take itself seriously (as in HQ/QFG), but there are only so many ways to bypass a guard. A better complaint of overuse would be the placing of the guard itself. If it's in a logical and believeable placement, fine. When it's guarding an arbitrary door that blocks a room containing a ball of yarn and a cat skeleton, it generates a needless puzzle.
Quote* People always tear off the top sheet of a memo pad after writing something on it. However, in order to be fair to you, the player, they press really hard with the pencil, so you know what to do.
While not a bad device since it works / is sometimes useful in the real world, it's very over-used. I don't know what special techniques PCs have, but I can never make out more than a vague guesstimate of the tablet's prior contents.
Now the screwdriver-type puzzle (hunts for miscellaneous objects in order to obtain an easily-attainable item) are over-used, annoying, and really remove the player from the game. The game creator felt that I should run these random errands for him? Great! If these things must be used, for god's sake make the attaining of said objects entertaining or interesting in and of themselves, and at least make it something somewhat plausible (like a star-head screwdriver, you might not be able to find a jewler's 6-point star screwdriver at your local hardware store. You probably could but ~maybe~ not).
It's bloody hard to come up with creative, imaginative, challenging puzzles by yourself. That's why a good assortment is more often found in a team-based developing environment. I think that in order to make a good game, people might have to rely less upon themselves and seek out at least a person or two to divulge their secrets to. Sure, it'll ruin a potentially great game for a player, but that player might help make a truely mind-stimulating adventure. Brainstorming often goes both ways, so what would be too coerced for one game, might make sense in another.
Three paths to the handprint/fingerprint puzzle?
I'm thinking of the most common one, which involves a dead guard, but there was one clever usage of a copied, fake handprint/fingerprint in a game I know of, and I suppose you could always go the Half-Life route and have somebody actually volunteer to open the door. But the common option is the cliché, and I probably should have been clearer about what I meant.
As for the ways to get past a guard? Sleeping gas in the vents hasn't been used too much, and it was handled nicely in a Star Trek game. Calling in on a guard's walkie-talkie or headset and pretending to be a superior is a nice one, though it might count as disguise. Turning yourself in, getting arrested and taken into the fortified location, and then escaping using a hidden gadget/trick/inside contact is my favorite, though.
Then there's something to be said for using stealth to avoid the guard altogether, in which case the guard becomes sort of a looming presence whom you don't deal with directly. And really, if I wanted to get into a building secretly, I would probably want to try every possible method that didn't show my face to the security personnel before approaching the guard. But no vents. Vents are overused. Wall-scaling and stealth are nicer, and King's Quest VI has a particularly neat variation on this in one of the two paths through its endgame.
I don't have anything against bribes, disguise, or distraction in general, but they're rarely pulled off really convincingly in games. The thrown rock style of distraction is incredibly risky and bribes are even riskier than rock throwing. Disguises are only good when the player isn't conveniently given a full uniform in his or her PC's clothing size by knocking out ANOTHER guard.
Most of those options fall under the major categories though.. I was just categorizing too broadly I think. If you make killing = incapacitating and the walkie-talkie = distraction, that only makes stealth and the last one different. Stealth is either no challenge to the player or can be quite frustrating. A blending of the two with some "*gasp* almost saw me!" moments might give it suspense without it being keyboard-bashing time. I really like your latter option and it's used so seldom. Seeing how it could work wonderfully with a dialogue from a previous encounter with an NPC/ally that gives you the information or promises to spring you is inspiring. Throw in one of the clichés - not meant to bypass the guards but to make it less obvious that you're trying to get arrested and that'd be a pretty convincing, well-designed puzzle.
Three paths for the handprint puzzle: Sorry, was counting in my head and might've shared how I was tallying. The first is usage of the actual person's hand (voluntarily or otherwise), the second is a facsimile, and the third was something I haven't seen in a game yet but works well for a single-user fingerprint ID for some brands of hardware: cup the peripheral in your hands and breathe out heavily into it, the water-vapor condenses around the previously-left oils and the device accepts it.
It's even worked on a couple devices that claimed not to be fooled by non-conductive materials (i.e. latex, silly putty, etc.). Put in a decent close-up animation so the player knows what's happening and give enough clues that it's not a try-everything puzzle and it'd work quite well.
The disguise option could be usable provided that the deus ex machina types that you've listed aren't there. It'd actually be quite cool to have the PC steal janitorial outfits, perhaps sizing up the cleaning staff for fit first, maybe being rejected by the guards for having an obviously wrong fit.
Bah, I think I'm nit-picking semantics really. Your last list was quite complimentary to the first and are valid analyses of overwrought puzzling.
Good tip there with the fingerprint device. It could prove useful in real life. :)
A really neat way to fool some fingerprint readers:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116573,pg,5,00.asp
Now, the trick would be cluing this. The print lifting wouldn't be too difficult to pull off - a discarded CD or something would do it. But getting the player to realize that melting candy will make a readable finger? That's tough.
Possibly a few decoy substances could be included, and attempts to use them would result in failure and a message suggesting that the player experiment with different materials...
Quote from: Wellington on Sun 18/09/2005 19:00:08
Now, the trick would be cluing this. The print lifting wouldn't be too difficult to pull off - a discarded CD or something would do it. But getting the player to realize that melting candy will make a readable finger? That's tough.
"Hmm.. now if only I could find something squishy and fleshy like that pudgy bastard's fingers"
Something like that?
Only more perfect that he's got an empty bag of Gummi Bears with one of the candies wedged in the keyboard.
Eeexcellent. This could be an incredible multi-stage puzzle. Could fill an entire chapter.
The player has to:
1) Get a photograph of the guy's fingerprints.
You have: Glass/CD/whatever with fingerprints. Mug. Digital microscopic camera. Superglue. Heat lamp used for lizard terrarium. Small aluminum/tin measuring cup. Cardboard box. Tape. A table near an electrical outlet.
You need to use the process of cyanoacrylate fuming, or "The Superglue Method," to make the prints clear enough to photograph.
[Source: http://onin.com/fp/cyanoho.html]
1. USE box on table. PC puts box on table, on its side, so that there's a work space.
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE lamp on box. Player positions lamp so that it is on the table, poking into the box, bulb facing upwards.
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE mug on sink to fill it with water.
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE mug in box. Player puts it in box. This is needed for humidity. (PC will not plug in the apparatus if this isn't done, and will say "I need a humidity source in there. It's too dry to fume well.")
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE cup on lamp. Player puts cup on lamp.
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE tape on CD, then USE CD on box to hang it in the chamber. Just using the CD directly gives the message: "I shouldn't just toss it in haphazardly. I need it to be better exposed."
2/3/4/5/6/7. USE superglue on cup. Note that we'll assume it doesn't dry, or, alternatively, set a time limit that forces to player to add more superglue if this takes too long.
8. HAND icon on box to close it around the lamp neck.
9. USE tape on box to seal it.
10. HAND on plug to plug in lamp. Time passes.
11. HAND on box to open it.
12. USE camera on now-fixed-and-easily-visible prints. Bingo.
I can't help it... that source page looks so much like an adventure game walkthrough...
How does the player figure all this out?
One possibility would be to have the player watch a forensic detective use a fume chamber earlier, and note down the steps in a handy pocket notebook. The fume chamber wouldn't run on over-the-counter superglue, but the principles would be explained. Also, there would be ample tips as to when the player was on the right track. Another possibility is that the player character is a detective, and says things like, "Okay, I need to build a fume chamber myself, then. Need cyanoacrylate, a humidity source, a fume container, and a heat source."
2) Make a mold.
You have: Computer with camera interface. Inkjet printer. Photo-etchable circuit board. UV light.
(Why would the player have photo-etchable circuit board? Well, you can get it from an electronics store, along with a strong UV source, and the electronics shop guy might actually be a good hint source here. "Is there anyway to print a solid object? I mean, to print something out in 3D?" the PC might ask. And the shop guy would tell you what you needed.
1. USE digital camera on computer. Player character uploads picture. Go to Photo Manipulation interface.
2. USE mirror flip option.
3. USE increase contrast option.
4. USE scale option.
5. USE print to Tray 2: Transparencies.
6. GET transparency.
7. USE transparency on circuit board.
8. USE circuit board on UV light.
9. Use tape on circuit board to make a little wall around the print.
Source: http://cryptome.org/gummy.htm
3) Make the fake finger:
1. Get the mug.
2. Use gummi bears on mug. The PC will remark that it's got white powder on it from the superglue, and automatically dump it out, put in the bears, and add a bit of water.
3. Use mug on microwave. "It takes you a few tries and a few more gummi bears, but you think you've got it to the right consistency now."
4. Use mug of goo on board.
Bingo!
I think we are going off-topic.
:)
Nuh-uh! That puzzle is SO going to be a cliché in five years.
"Dude. ANOTHER game with the gummi fingerprint puzzle and the superglue and circuit board? Man, this is even worse than the 'catching the key' thing!"
Yeah, stop interrupting. We're forumlating the next generation of clichés. This is important stuff.
Quote from: Wellington on Sun 18/09/2005 12:12:20
Oh, and I forgot to mention the most annoying adventure game cliché puzzle ever.
I can honestly say I've never EVER seen that puzzle in an adventure game. People claim it's overused, and I have no idea what they're talking about. (That and slider puzzles. I swear I've only seen, like, two slider puzzles in the 100+ adventure games I've played.) I think I saw this trick on some TV show when I was a kid, though.
QuoteA few games that use this puzzle, named as I remember them:
Zork 2 (I believe it was 2)
Lost in Time (Clever but needlessly baroque variation on the theme)
Anchorhead
Zork: Grand Inquisitor
Broken Sword 3
Sherlock Holmes: Case of the Rose Tattoo (I found this by Googling some key phrases, so to speak, and getting the walkthrough)
Dark Fall
Midnight Nowhere (Found by Googling another phrase)
Hugo 2: Whodunnit
And SO MANY MORE.
Yeah, never played any of those. OK, so a couple of those were fairly major titles, but could it be that this puzzle is something mainly found in obscure, low-budget titles?
I seem to recall it in one of the Tex Murphy games, I'm thinking UAKM or PD but it's been awhile so could've been Martian Memorandum.
It sounds familiar as an SQ or KQ puzzle as well, but the insidious obviousness of that puzzle has addled me. The classic version involves a key stuck in the door from the other side, a long, narrow object and a newspaper. Some game I played used a slice of bread instead of the paper, can't remember which one.
A few more that use it:
Post Mortem
Alone in the Dark 2
Mystery of Time and Space
Pharaoh's Curse
This would make a great MAGS topic - most clichéd game.
It's been featured in comics and movies as well.
Rather strange, still, since it's pretty illogical...I mean, if somebody locks you in a room, they're bound to bring the key with them. Even if they leave the key, you'd prolly have to turn it to push it out, which is hard to do with just a stick/pencil/hanger/whatever.
And lastly, few doors have so wide a crack underneath to allow a paper/slice of bread to slide through with a key on top of it.
IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!
If you want into a room you can bash in any wooden door with some dropkicks. Or smash in the window, go outside and smash in another window of the room you want into.
What does it matter if you have to save the world.
But you're not saving the world, you're playing an adventure game.
Quote from: Andail on Mon 19/09/2005 16:14:39
IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!
Why? I've used it in real life.
But I think that apart from having original puzzles, which is difficult, because you have limited inventory items you can use. You know there are items that you use all day, even in real life, and other items you use once a year (like a condom ;D). So limited items->limited puzzles. Makes sense...
I think even more difficult is to have original thinking regarding the characters motivation and of course regarding the GUI. I think that here in AGS we have at least a couple of examples that are great at these sectors. One is Mind's Eye and the other is with the blind guy. Insted of look, you have smell, touch, taste and stuff.
That's original!
As well as Mind's eye, (for what I've seen so far) to use as a command, your brain...
Brilliant..
Hmmm... I've played all the Tex Murphy games, but I don't recall any of them featuring this puzzle. Could perhaps be UAKM. It's been a long while since I played that. I haven't played any of the other games mentioned thus far (well, I've played some KQ games, but apparently not the one that featured this puzzle).
Andail, it really depends on the type of door. In most modern buildings there's no way this would work, but when I went to college in the UK, you could have done this practically everywhere. The doorways had no thresholds, so there was easily an inch's gap between the door and the floor, and the locks were extremely simple, so you could poke out the key with a pen if you wanted. People might not leave the key in the lock if they were keeping you imprisoned, but they might if it was just a door between two rooms, like a study and a library.
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Mon 19/09/2005 14:54:06
This would make a great MAGS topic - most clichéd game.
Or not.
Quote from: jetxl on Mon 19/09/2005 16:52:39
If you want into a room you can bash in any wooden door with some dropkicks. Or smash in the window, go outside and smash in another window of the room you want into.
What does it matter if you have to save the world.
But you're not saving the world, you're playing an adventure game.
The thought process that led to Full Throttle?
Quote from: YakSpit on Sun 18/09/2005 16:44:18
Quote from: Wellington on Sun 18/09/2005 15:17:58
Quote* People always tear off the top sheet of a memo pad after writing something on it. However, in order to be fair to you, the player, they press really hard with the pencil, so you know what to do.
While not a bad device since it works / is sometimes useful in the real world, it's very over-used. I don't know what special techniques PCs have, but I can never make out more than a vague guesstimate of the tablet's prior contents.
Quote
The best use of this is in The Big Lebowski, where it doesn't work at all. Well, it does *work* I suppose.
EDIT: Ooops, didn't notice the third page, so this comes waaay late in the conversation.
Spoiler
Always use extra letters in your words to come off as a true wordsmith and not a moron ;)
The most clichéd adventure game ever would likely be one of the King's Quest imitations that came out following their success.
But... in the interests of trying to top them.
The four most clichéd fantasy plots are Rescue the Princess, Find the Magic Artifact Pieces, Escape the Magical World You Have Been Teleported To, and Defeat the Evil Sorcerer.
The most clichéd horror setup is Trapped in a Haunted Mansion.
The most clichéd mystery plot is the Amnesia Plot.
The most clichéd science fiction plot in adventure games is, surprisingly, not the Alien Invasion (which is oddly not used all that often) but the Ancient Alien Ruins With Artifacts of Great Power Must Be Explored for Unclear Reasons plot.
So, how about a game where an amnesiac spaceman searching alien ruins is transported into a fantasy world via an ancient teleporter and finds that an evil sorcerer has stolen key parts of the artifact so that he can't go back home until he defeats the villain in his haunted mansion lair and rescues a princess in the process?
Actually, maybe I play too many of these things, but that's starting to sound kind of cool!
Quote from: Wellington on Tue 20/09/2005 10:12:08
So, how about a game where an amnesiac spaceman searching alien ruins is transported into a fantasy world via an ancient teleporter and finds that an evil sorcerer has stolen key parts of the artifactÃ, so that he can't go back home until he defeats the villain in his haunted mansion lair and rescues a princess in the process?
I think it does sound cool! AS long as it's humorous and not Hollywood style!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Wellington on Tue 20/09/2005 10:12:08
Actually, maybe I play too many of these things, but that's starting to sound kind of cool!
Maybe you have being playing too many of these things, but I guess you did it when you didin't answer to this thread. 9/12 posts are here. My god, you joined to answer this thread? ;D
Really though, you seem to have researched the cliche subject so... Ok. I salute you for that!
Just one question: I want to make a rpg with a female character. So I'm trying to figure out why should would go into a magical castle (with traps, moving doors, monsters and all). You see I don't see any reason, and I'd hate to put that she has to save the world or that kinda bullshit.
Motivation is what keeps any of us going. And I can't find hers...
What I'm saying is that it's difficult to come up with something original, especially considering the history of mankind. If you sit down and take a look at all the ancient Greek tragedies, it's all there. They're still playing them and it seems to me that Shakespear copied a lot of that stuff (ok... I know to much, but if you think about it, both of these kinds are like soap operas!!!!!!)
Simpsons are getting very very old (Viva El Farlander)
and most of us have the same idea about what colour is 4: red!
:DLook I just joined three threads into one! Good for me :D
And I'm not making fun! Really. Help me
Quote from: nikolasideris on Tue 20/09/2005 13:45:04
Just one question: I want to make a rpg with a female character. So I'm trying to figure out why should would go into a magical castle (with traps, moving doors, monsters and all). You see I don't see any reason, and I'd hate to put that she has to save the world or that kinda bullshit.
Motivation is what keeps any of us going. And I can't find hers...
Well, I think in first place you should develop her character, if you haven't done so already. Usually that should lead to a good motivation by itself.
Also, it's important whether this is the very premise of the story itself or just part of it...
Mh, some reason I could think of without knowing anything about her would be:
- She's a treasure hunter and heard of this nifty, valuable treasure hidden in the castle.
- Or she's some sort of ghost hunter and was hired to get rid of some sort of ghost that hid away in the castle.
- Maybe she's a mage and needs some ingredients that only grow in the castle's basement.
- Or she's looking for her pet/brother/sister/friend/granny, who got lost in the castle for some reason.
- She might be a traveller who accidentally found the castle when looking for shelter from the rain.
- Her courage is put to a test by the gang she'd love to join.
(Or a combination: Looking for a friend who took this courage test thingy)
- Or the other way around, she wants to prove to her gang how wrong they are about spouting such rumors about a "monster castle".
Most likely none of those options are that original. But then again, personally I think it's not necessarily the premise that makes a story original, but the way you tell it and put your own spin to it.
Well, hope this is of any help! ^^;
QuoteJust one question: I want to make a rpg with a female character. So I'm trying to figure out why should would go into a magical castle (with traps, moving doors, monsters and all). You see I don't see any reason, and I'd hate to put that she has to save the world or that kinda bullshit.
Put a loved one in peril. That always works - just watch "Beauty and the Beast" again. But you might want to put a twist on this. Remember "Labyrinth" where the girl wishes that her little brother would be taken by the goblin king, and exactly that happens?
Seriously though, you should first of all try to work out the theme of the story. What's the most valuable thing to the player character (family, freedom, friendship... or something else not starting with an "f"), and then put that at stake.
Edit: You might actually want to give the character a flaw, which ends her up in this situation. And if told within a traditional dramatic structure, her experiences in the castle will let her overcome this flaw. Maybe she's stubborn or greedy, or perhaps she's afraid of everything, fleeing into the castle only to find something much worse than what she was running from.
Traps and moving doors? I hope these aren't the slow-moving kind. Those are silly.
Well, I agree with the above advice about motivation. But there are a number of other neat reasons for somebody to go into that kind of castle that could lead to entire stories in themselves.
What if the princess owns the castle, and, in a twist on the amnesia plot, everybody has amnesia BUT her, and so she isn't recognized by the security, and has to figure out what happened?
What if the princess's father, the king, is a tyrant, and the princess wants to depose him - preferably bloodlessly - and put somebody else on the throne?
What if the princess is in exile for a wicked attempt to usurp the throne, and is trying again, and only the king's loyal but bumbling vizier and the palace guards can stop her? You don't get enough evil princesses and good viziers, you know.
What if she is on a diplomatic visit to a country, war is declared during her stay, and she ends up trying to do some impromptu spying and learn the enemy's battle plans?
I had a big-long post about storytelling styles, but it was messy and mostly pointless. My advice is to not have A reason to enter the game, but many. Start off with one perhaps, and then twist it a bit as you go along so as to not have the obvious "premise-game-return to premise for bosses" mode.
For example, if Susan's son is lost in the house, it makes sense for her to go in and solve a few puzzles/dodge things. But how long would she be in there before getting out, getting sensible and calling for some help? Now, a manipulative writer could just keep giving her glimpses of her son to go deeper into the maze, but there are more clever ways to twist the basic plot. What if she tries to get out but can't--then the mystery would change gears a bit. What if she finds her son/the treasure/Her father's will but the son came in for something even more important [or] now they can't get out again [or] the son has found a treasure map they can use together [or] there is a voicing calling from deeper in [or] the one item she wanted from the treasure is missing [or] her father has asked her to retrieve something from the top floor.
New twists can be added in at various points, perhaps calling into question the purpose of the whole quest, or pushing back the end-point or adding a new level of complexity. It's not necessarily very hard, and makes the plot less superficial.
bspeers has a point. And here's another adventure game cliché to avoid:
Everybody does what they do for only one reason, and one alone. Maaaybe two, if it's a particularly subtle game.
Nicked from Grumpy Gamer (http://www.grumpygamer.com/), this one is a list of console rpg clichés:
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
I think puzzles in a game, especially an adventure game, need to arise from character and plot, rather than your characters simply being rats in a maze of your design. As I said in another thread, a plot built to connect the dots between a series of tricky tasks isn't going to be as compelling as a plot, complete with fully-realised characters, which in turn give rise to obstacles that then must be solved. I don't think anyone necessarily resents being given a puzzle that they've seen before as long as the reason is good. If you really can't see past the 'cliche' of the puzzles, then you're either playing a game that has too thin a plot, or you're allowing your 'professional' critique of the game to override your suspension of disbelief and engagement with the story.
IMHO.
Graham Nelson said that an adventure game is a narrative at war with a crossword.
To be worth playing, an adventure needs to give the player the ability to meaningfully affect the story, explore a fascinating world, and/or solve really interesting puzzles. Not all of the above are necessary, but a game needs more than a compelling story with some overused puzzles layered on top.
Graphic adventure games have a very high busywork-to-fun ratio, in my experience. It's not as severe as that of some RPGs, but it's up there. Most of your time is spent walking around, scanning the screen for objects, and going through what are often very dull conversation trees. (Lucasarts has consistently avoided the third problem, but Grim Fandango had real issues with the first, especially in Rubacava.) Every so often, you get a bit of story, and you solve puzzles.
So, if the puzzles are not original, challenging, and clever, you end up with what amounts to a story that's been stretched as thin as possible and dispensed as a reward for walking around and doing trivial stuff. Cliché puzzles might convince the designer that the player is having fun, but they're really no better than another walk across the game map. Especially when they force the player to cross the map to solve them.
And, if you're going to watch a story, you might as well watch a movie or read a book, and get much more story and character development for your time and money. Gameplay has to be more than a set of roadblocks to the story.
I agree that making the puzzles arise naturally from the plot, characters, and setting is a good first step here - it keeps you honest, and prevents you from adding too much dull filler. But the most cliché puzzles DON'T arise naturally from these elements. Puzzles like bribing a guard aren't overused unless a game consists entirely of them. Puzzles like the horrible cliché discussed above are overused if the game even uses them once.
So, if I can't see past the cliché of the puzzles to the compelling story, it could be because I could be watching a movie, and not have to see past ANYTHING to get to the story. A game should not have to apologize for its puzzles.
Like mazes. When was the last time you saw a genuinely _plausible_ maze in a game? They make no sense as a security measure.
Or the ubiquitous puzzle mentioned earlier in the thread. How often do you see a place where it would actually work?
Or slider puzzles. They're a fixture of the Myst-clones, but they've made their way into traditional adventures, too. WHY?
We shouldn't settle for a good story and bad puzzles, or good puzzles and a lousy story.
Whenever I see a stick, some long spool of thread or wire and a magnet/hook/bendable piece of metal in my inventory box I exhibit a Pavlovian Response where I immediately try to create a fishing rod.
You know generally I believe that adventures and rpgs are a great way to tell a story. It is like reading a book, cause you do use your imagination to solve riddles. Now, usually there are puzzles to provide a somewhat more challenging way for the player to see the story, otherwise the player would choose to read a book. This is why I spend so much time trying to figure out why she would get into the castle.To make the book part of the game interesting, and after I'll make the puzzles hopefully interesting...
And thanks everybody :)
What about the cliché of the cliffhanger ending?Ã, Or is it really a cliché?Ã, They would probably be more effective in a series of games, like the ending of Quest for Glory 3.
So, would a cliffhanger ending make you feel cheated? Excited to see what happens next? Both?
This is purely theoretical of course...it's not like I'm going to have any cliffhanger endings in any of my games...no sir. Never.
;D
If there's a cliffhanger at the end of BJ5 you'd damn well better be in production of six IMMEDIATELY!
Quote from: Wellington on Sat 24/09/2005 23:07:21
Graham Nelson said that an adventure game is a narrative at war with a crossword.
For the game I've just finished, I more or less decided to skip the puzzle part and focus on the exploration/story part. I suspect that people will think that I "failed" to make puzzles, while I actually wanted to make more of a interactive graphical novel rather than a interactive graphical novel combined with minesweeper.