I'm writing up all the puzzles and the plot for my new game, and In one scene, the protagonist is tied and locked in a room. I swore blind when starting this project there would not be a locked room scene, but what do you guys think? Too cliched? :-\
As long as it doesn't involve pushing the key out of the other side and sliding it under the door..
Yes, there's no problem with this if you make it original, I think.
Trance-Pacific has a locked-room puzzle at the start, but it has an original solution method. It also makes fun of the slide-paper-under-the-door-and-push-key-out-of-keyhole cliché.
I, personally, always enjoy a good trapped-in-a-room-with-a-locked-door puzzle...
Maybe it's because I'm lazy, and hate having to explore large areas multiple times just to find some little easy-to-miss item.
At least when you're trapped in a room, you know the answer's in sight, and not off somewhere it'll take you 15 minutes to get to (potentially).
Locked room scenes always struck me as funny...I mean, tied up, yes, that would work. But I know from my locksmith days that there are almost no doors in regular buildings, home or commercial, that aren't always designed to be opened from the inside. It's fire hazard law, people have to always be able to get out. So most of the scenes where the bad guys lock the hero up inside a hotel/motel/bar/meat freezer/whatever room, they must've taken time in advance to change out the fire-or-safety-hazard-friendly locks. :) Hooray for villains that think their plans through!
Having worked around them before, a lot of meat freezers have safety pins you can drive through the lock on the outside to secure it, and the door cannot be opened from the inside with the pin in. I believe that is what the bad guys do in Short Circuit 2 (and in The Shining?), though my memory could be wrong. What you are saying is logical, of course, but games very rarely operate off of real world logic.
Quote from: Strange Visitor on Fri 15/02/2008 20:33:32
Locked room scenes always struck me as funny...I mean, tied up, yes, that would work. But I know from my locksmith days that there are almost no doors in regular buildings, home or commercial, that aren't always designed to be opened from the inside.
What exactly do you mean by that? You mean they're easier to kick down from the inside?
No, I mean locks are by default designed to always let people out of rooms easily, even when they're locked from the outside. (With the exception of, say, a deadbolt with a key lock on both sides, instead of a key for the outside and a thumbturn on the inside.) If you think about it, there's almost never a reason why a person would need to be locked in a room with no way to open the door themselves, so all locks are designed with safety in mind. (Like, do you want a complicated lock to undo when you're panicking during a fire?)
For instance, the lever-handle locks you find in a lot of commercial buildings...even when they're locked, you can always still turn the handle inside the door, for safety reasons. I've got a cool thin metal rod tool that's shaped like a long bracket [ with a cord coming off one end, for opening locked lever handle doors from the outside. You slide it under the door, tilt it up against the door, move the top end of the [ over the handle, and pull down with the cord, manipulating the handle and opening the door. We had a lot of fun with it at my last Lockpicking Club meeting. :) It even works on those $300 electronic pushbutton Trilogy locks, as long as there's a crack under the door. :)
Huttah! http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/UnderTool.png
Gosh, mister. I never knew there was so much I never knew about locks...
I dunno, maybe my house is kind of old-fashioned, but every single door has a corresponding key which locks or unlocks it. If someone has the key, and locks it from the outside, there's no real release. Which also struck me as odd... but if I'm ever in the situation where I have to lock a psycho killer into a room, I'll be laughing...
I always wanted to try lockpicking, but I'm just not patient enough, really...
Also, it seems like it would be illegal. Or at least get you on some sort of watch list...
(Sorry if this thread is starting to go off topic a bit, but... :) )
I'm not really sure about the international laws regarding the possession of lock bypass tools, but I do know some of the biggest locksports groups in the world are from the UK and countries surrounding. I've got a ton of tools designed just for bypassing, picking or otherwise breaking locks and security devices, but they're all perfectly legal to own (even the lockpicks, at least in my state) as long as I'm not caught with them while committing a burglary or something. I think everyone should learn lockpicking...it's actually very easy once you get the knack, and would you rather fork over $100 to a locksmith just because you lost your keys in the middle of the night?
I would *love* to see a game that had completely, 100% accurate lockpicking or B&E for once...I even thought about making one as a huge tutorial for B&E techniques, where the player gets to learn exactly what the burglar is doing as he goes through the game. But I know that without previous knowledge of the techniques, most players would be completely stuck until after they saw how each one was done.
The pushing-the-key-out-onto-a-newspaper thing is so old, because those types of keyholes and keys aren't used anywhere anymore, and what villain would honestly forget his keys anyways? :)
To get back towards the topic, locked room scenarios can be done in new and original ways...like, most bad guys might never think that while they locked the door up tight, the hero could just pull the pins out of the hinges and open the door on the hinge side. If you've got a soda can and a pair of scissors, you can make a little shim that'll open almost any padlock in America in seconds. Most office buildings have false acoustic tile ceilings, and heroes could just crawl up into the ceiling and out of the locked room. Or if a door is locked entirely with deadbolts and latches, maybe an inflatable raft or inflatable clown punching bag or something could be worked into the crack between the door and the frame, and when it's inflated it'll spread the door so far from the frame that the bolts will just pop out of their holes.
Anyways, sorry, I just get caught up in this subject. :) It's a passion.
I like locked room puzzles, sort of.
I find that I get extremely tired of wandering everywhere trying to find the item I have missed or dialogue option that I haven't explored just to get to the next stage in the game. It takes time, can't be skipped and is boring to watch the character walk everywhere. Locked room puzzles skip this annoying element.
Some games (Such as Simon the Sorceror) have maps that get rid of this problem, or at least help it.
I say go for the old locked room puzzle. The elements are generally right in front of your eyes, and there is plenty of room for creativity with the puzzle.
Oh, and Paolo - heh... Trance-Pacific is really just a series of locked room puzzles. But you already know that.
Quote from: Strange Visitor on Sat 16/02/2008 03:48:42
I would *love* to see a game that had completely, 100% accurate lockpicking or B&E for once...I even thought about making one as a huge tutorial for B&E techniques, where the player gets to learn exactly what the burglar is doing as he goes through the game. But I know that without previous knowledge of the techniques, most players would be completely stuck until after they saw how each one was done.
You could have little hints and instructions lying around.\
I think that would be a refreshingly interesting idea for a game - a master locksmith gets tired of his lazy apprentice, so he decides to lock him into a maze and release a starving wolf into it or something, so the apprentice needs to hastily get better at lockpicking if he wants to survive...
Quote from: Strange Visitor on Sat 16/02/2008 03:48:42
If you've got a soda can and a pair of scissors, you can make a little shim that'll open almost any padlock in America in seconds.
That sounds pretty interesting; a fun little puzzle. Could you give a sketch for that? (I promise I won't come and break into your home ;) )
Hey, I'll do ya one better: http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/189/48/
Step by step instructions! :) And yes, it's something I've done many times myself, so I know it works. It freaks people out when they realize how insecure their stuff is. Any type of padlock where the hasp is "locked" in place by a springloaded latch, this shim will work on it. I've got a bag full of washed-out empty soda cans in my fridge for exactly this purpose. ;D
And to preempt any potential worriers: yes, I understand knowledge like this can be dangerous in the wrong hands. But the lock companies have been lying *forever* about how safe their locks are. Kwikset and other companies' "99.9% pick resistant!" locks are complete BS...the manufacturing tolerances might be tighter, but 99.9% resistant is the same as 100% pickable. You see it on almost all their locks, no matter how cheap or insecure, as a kneejerk reaction to people re-discovering the art of "bumping" locks, which is pretty freaking sweet when you do it the first few times. :) I don't believe in the "security through obscurity" principle, meaning locks are only more secure because people don't know how to defeat them, so I educate wherever possible.
Ha...that locked in the maze with a wolf idea is hilarious. :) I had a boss during my apprenticeship that probably would've done it, too.
Oh, quick PS to the instructions link: They don't mention that every shim you make will be destroyed in the process of using it. Hey, it's cheap metal. They also don't explain that you should slide the pointy bit down into the *outside* edge of the hasp first, then use the little handles to turn it 180 degrees around (which slides it in under the springloaded latch, essentially covering the notch in the hasp stopping it from coming open) so that it ends up looking like it does in the final picture on the page. If you try to just stick it straight down on the inside edge of the hasp like they show, it'll probably just get stuck and blunted.
You can buy shims for about $20 per 20 shims, which is ridiculous when you can make a few of them from a 50 cent pop can.
Thanks; I can really see how this'll fit in a game.
I know it's off topic but last week I got some lockpicking tools from UKBumpkeys and I locked myself at home for about two hours!!!
Never try your skills on your own locks!!!
StrangeVisitor: ever unlocked a Mult-lock? (6pins and lockpicking, not bumping.)
cheers
I'm curious though... that pushing-the-key-out with a piece of paper under the door - has anyone ever done that in real life? I mean, does that even work, at all?
Well see, that would only work on one of those really old warded locks like you expect to see in murder mysteries...the round top, the triangular bottom, and you can see all the way through. Theoretically, if someone left their key sticking in the door on the other side, yes, you could push it out onto a paper or something, assuming it was turned straight so it could come out of the hole, and the crack under the door was high enough. But seriously, what person locking someone up would just leave the key sitting in the door?
(http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=2167&rendTypeId=4)
The way those old keys worked...there's a series of thin metal bars ("wards") inside the keyhole, and only if the key was cut with spaces that fit the bars, it could turn around and unlock the door. If the spaces were cut wrong, the key wouldn't turn. "Skeleton keys" were keys filed down so thin that they'd bypass the wards and unlock it anyways.
Those locks were such terribly poor security that they've been out of use for...gods, I don't even know how long. So maaaaybe if our hero was locked up in a seriously old mansion, and the locker-upper had alzheimer's and just forgot his keys in the lock a lot, it might be plausible. :)
Miguel: Congrats on your new tools...what'd you get? :) And did you mean a Mul-T-Lock?
Quote from: Radiant on Wed 20/02/2008 09:42:32
I'm curious though... that pushing-the-key-out with a piece of paper under the door - has anyone ever done that in real life? I mean, does that even work, at all?
I did it once, in a bathroom. Only I used a coat-hanger to grab the key (which I poked out of the lock with a cutip) instead of a newspaper.
Never realised my locks were so old...
Well, thats Irish contractors for ya...
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Locks like the one StrangeVisitor mentioned in the picture are very easy to unlock, all you need is a piece of metal that is hard enough to bend on the tip and not brake. That's a good solution for a locked door part of a game.
StrangeVIsitor: Yes I meant Mul-T-Lock, it's damn hard to pick and as I said, I messed with the pins and jammed them, the result was 2hours locked inside my house!!!!
I now bought a ABUS Cylinder D6 wich I haven't been able to unlock even watching all the videos from the guys at Bumpkeys!
I bought the Southord C2010 22pc set from them.
Cheers
Ahhh yes, MulTLock and ABUS...I thought you might live outside the US. :) No, I'm afraid I've never worked on either of those...if you go to www.lockpicking101.com, though, they have a forum there about opening international locks.
That's a pretty good set you got...I wish I had a wishbone tension wrench, no pun intended. Not that I need it that much, but it's good especially for double-pinned cylinders, or for raking the Club open. :) I can tell you right now a few of those picks are going to be totally redundant for you, like the extra ball picks and that super-long multiple-diamond rake that looks like a mountain range. I've never needed mine. :) I always try to teach newcomers the "If you can't do it with a single hook, diamond or rake, you're not going to be able to do it with twenty variations of each, so save your cash." principle, but no worries, you didn't go overboard, and those extra wrenches will all be useful at some point.
And just so we don't wander too far a-thread...one escape I would like to see in a game is someone locked inside a big standing floor safe. Theoretically, if they had a light source and a screwdriver, they could unscrew the back of the lock panel, and then just line up the wheels of the combination lock, retract the latch and open the door from the inside.
Though telling that here does kinda screw up the surprise for a game, I guess. :)
Quote from: Strange Visitor on Fri 22/02/2008 12:31:01
And just so we don't wander too far a-thread...one escape I would like to see in a game is someone locked inside a big standing floor safe. Theoretically, if they had a light source and a screwdriver, they could unscrew the back of the lock panel, and then just line up the wheels of the combination lock, retract the latch and open the door from the inside.
Doesn't he kind of do that in Grim Fandango? Except it's from the outside...
Huh, I had completely forgotten that...I haven't played the game in ten years. (Well, I just bought a copy, but it won't run on my computer. :) ) Well then! Scratch that idea.
Okaaay...our hero is trapped in a tall cage, with vertical bars all around him. He wets down a towel, loops it around the bars, wraps the other end around a short bar, or flashlight, or something that he can hold...and turns it over and over until the towel tightens up so much that it bends the bars together!
That was done in A-team. And a dozen other cheap action movies/stories.
Usually with a chain though, or something at least slightly more durable than a towel...
Jaysus...you mean to tell me I'm psychically tapping the minds of boring scriptwriters? I wait 28 years for my bloody superpowers to show up, and this is what I get? What a ripoff.
I guess you're right SVisitor, with this lock, I end up switching the tools around as if it would help me and knowing that I only need a rake and some tension! But, like you said, I didn't spend all that money.
A nice puzzle would be:
Hero wants to unlock electronic safe with digital numbers screen;
Hero has in his inventory a discman and his pocketknife that comes with a screwdriver and nothing else;
Hero finds some wire on the background;
He unscrews the screws from the logo of the safe and finds a hole (they actually come like that);
Takes a batery from the discman (you would need a more powerfull one but that would do);
Wires the batery into the safe slot and when the wire touches the wires inside the extra voltage opens the safe!
what do you think?
Quote from: miguel on Fri 22/02/2008 21:21:50
A nice puzzle would be:
I disagree that this would be a nice puzzle. Depending on the player's background, it is either way too difficult, or a cliche.
Accepted :), but here is my opinion:
a player's background has nothing to do with the reason people play adventure games, if one has a chance to be a thief and steal this incredible plan from a evil guy that wants to rule the world he will like to know how to open a safe ( more so if it is actually the way it's done, not with all safes, of course!);
the same is also true if you want to be a commander of a spaceship and be beamed-up and use laser guns (how cliche is that?) but people love it and like to play that kind of games.
the same with fighting orcs and use potions that grow plants! ;)
about beeing dificult, most adventure gamers will say first thing that the puzzles on game A or B were too easy and therefore too simple to complete the game.
cheers
That's the problem with most of the good ideas I can come up with for "technically accurate" lock puzzles...most of the techniques I know for b&e aren't known by most people outside the locksmith/burglary industries, so almost no one would have any idea that they could, say, open an electronic roll-up gate with only a screwdriver, or sometimes even a pair of thin nails, and everybody would hate the puzzle. Conversely, it's always driven me personally nuts every time I run into a lock or safe or something in a game and find out that the owner of that safe apparently keeps their most valuable possession protected by a slide-the-boxes-to-make-a-picture puzzle. :)
It especially drives me nuts in TV and movies when action heroes open locks with forks, or listen really hard to a safe as they turn the dial. There's a rule that real lockpicking can never be completely shown on TV in case the wrong person learns from it, so you always see them just inserting a pick and wiggling it around and magically opening the door in a few seconds, even though they never used a tension wrench on the cylinder. And listening for the gates inside a safe lock is so freaking old, it's not possible anymore. I loved "The Score", it's one of the most technically accurate safecracking movies I've ever seen.
Why make a lock-puzzle? Its old..
Why not make him invent a teleportation device. I see you want to be realistic, so make a realistic teleportation device that works, but make shure to patent it very quickly before military guys get you...