Maze Puzzle: Would this frustrate you?

[poc301]

Hello everyone,

I am hard at work on Murran Chronicles 3, and am scripting a puzzle in a cave-maze (cliche, I know).  The path of how to get through the maze is something you are able to find during the game, so it isn't a random blind maze type thing.  Although, if you miss it, there are no death-areas, so you can just roam around forever without any penalty in the game.

With that in mind, there is a puzzle to open a door which is blocking your path in the maze.  The way I am currently looking at it is that the player goes into the puzzle, and if they solve it, the door opens.  If they get it wrong, the puzzle teleports them to a random room in the maze.  Kind of a penalty..  The key to the puzzle is another thing that you are supposed to have gotten (or rather seen somewhere if you're observant), and the puzzle even has word clues on the puzzle itself on a plaque above it.  I am hoping it isn't too difficult.

Anyway, my point being, if you were playing the game, and you had to solve a puzzle, but if you got it wrong it teleports you to some random room in a cave and you had to roam around to find your way back, would it frustrate you?  Would it frustrate you enough not to finish the game?  Keep in mind, the puzzle is logical, and any of the rooms are within 4-5 of the puzzle room.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Bill

[Ghost]

It wouldn't frustrate me if a) it's really logical and b) I can figure out that logic after at least three false starts. The scenario you describe sounds totally sensible regarding size and "punishment", so yes, I might even enjoy it (I'm the sort of geek who still draws these little maps on squared paper )

But maze puzzle are the typical "breaking point" of anyone who didn't grow up with Infocom games, so you may want to make this skippable, or at least offer an alternative solution. If your puzzle is hard to figure out, I daresay it could be a fun killer.

Also, once the maze has been solved, give the player the option to skip it- if there's lots of backtracking in your game, navigating a maze several times even though one knows the solution is really not polite.

If you're going to put the puzzle into the game ANYWAY, you may want to make the maze a bit memorable; make some of the rooms stand out, add some background animations or other scenery porn. People tend to be a lot more forgiving when they are given eye candy... If you know the swamp maze puzzle from the original Monkey Island, you already know what I mean, all the little fireflies,different trees and generally cool nightly atmosphere added a lot of personality to a rather bland navigate-the-maze puzzle.

[poc301]

It is a onetime deal, so nobody will have to do the maze twice.

As for logic, here is the deal (if you plan on playing Murran 3 when done, forget this):

1) The game has a lot to do with Irish and Gaelic folklore.  The path to the maze is on the wall of the Gaelic novelty shop in the game.
2) The puzzle has 3 colored squares that you click on, each one cycling through 6-7 colors.
3) The plaque on the wall says that the player needs to prove themself as being a countryman and true of heart in order to proceed.
4) There are a few Irish flags on the wall of the Gaelic store, so the flag is there to see. 
5) If you roll through colors and make the left box Green, the middle box White and the rightmost box Orange, it looks like an Irish flag.

Thoughts? 

Thanks,

Bill

[Ghost]

Hmmm, now you got me hooked.
The hints provided sound sensible, the solution should be easy to figure out, and it's always nice to have puzzles rooted in folklore. Can't spot anything "vague" or "unfair" here.
Go for it, says I!

(And since I am now quite interested in playing M3, I shall forget this post and just look forward to the game  )

[LRH]

I always hate those kinds of puzzles, but that's just me. I know others appreciate them. I always grit my teeth and grit through them, seems like a silly reason to quit a game completely.

[Charity]

My first adventure games were King's Quest V and VI, which I played when I was 9 or 10 and no one had yet taught me that those two iconic mazes weren't fun.  They weren't.  But only because I was a skittish kid and was convinced that something would jump out at me at any moment, and I was quite horrified of the prospect.  Usually my brother or father would play those parts, while I darted in and our of the room, praying that nothing hideous would pop out and kill them while I was there, but too fascinated, enthralled to just leave until they finished.

I miss that kind of involvement.

At any rate, I've never felt like mazes were bad puzzle design when I've encountered them since.  Then again, I also enjoy sliding block puzzles, so my tastes are suspect.

[Snarky]

I really quite like mazes, as long as they're only one component of the game, and don't completely dominate it. It also helps if there are puzzles (e.g. inventory puzzles) spread around in the maze, rather than the whole thing being there just to slow you down before you can progress in the game. Among AGS games, I think Ben Jordan 6 and Limey Lizard are examples that make good use of mazes (though LL unfortunately lets you exit the maze before you complete one of the puzzles and then doesn't allow you to go back).

From what you describe, I'd almost be more concerned that it's too easy. Particularly showing players a map ahead of time; which will either render the "puzzle" trivial, or just be frustrating to players who didn't copy down the map.

I assume that each room in the maze looks (at least slightly) different? If you get teleported to some random room and there's no way to tell which one you're in without exploring, that might be a bit frustrating (but on the other hand might also be interesting). And is there an in-game rationale for the teleporting? (e.g. a trap door that drops you back down)?

BTW, just played Murran 2 for the AGS Awards, and thought it was an enjoyable BJ-esque game. I liked the snippets of background research you'd incorporated, e.g. about the Sioux/Dakota, and facts about pterosaurs etc. On the flipside, I thought the main weakness was the cases of "reality fail," like the FBI agents' sloppy crime scene protocols, tendency to split up, and lack of access to agency resources (e.g. relying on a child's fingerprinting toy set, or handing over key evidence to some random university prof. instead of sending it to an FBI lab). Oh, and the final puzzle (with going back from the Sioux town to the cryptozoological museum) seemed very random and unguessable, unless I missed a hint somewhere.

[Mr Flibble]

The only bit I'm worried about is how you reconcile teleportation with a realistic game world.

[GarageGothic]

Personally, something like the design you describe would make me restore a savegame from just before trying the code, and keep doing it until I succeed (what's the point of traversing a maze I've already figured out?). Also, something that is not clear from your description is whether or not the player will be able to backtrack to the Gaelic shop for clues. If so, not only must any player who hasn't noticed/don't remember the clues and get the puzzle wrong first get teleported to a random room, then find their way out the maze, return to the store (if they even realize that's where you get the clues), then go return through their maze to the puzzle.

I think it would improve the design if you also scatter clues to the puzzle around the maze (murals of the flags or whatever), then you would actually be giving the player a chance to pick up a hint by teleporting him elsewhere, so you're helping him instead of penalizing him.

[Mr Flibble]

Oh, I just remembered The Last Crusade. There was a similar puzzle, and if you got the combination wrong, a trapdoor opened beneath you depositing you into another room, rather than the door taking you to the wrong room until you get the puzzle right. That'd solve the teleportation issue.

[Anian]

General thoughts:
- as less backtracking as possible
- skip maze when it's solved (unless some exceptions make that difficult)
- no dead ends
- try to make it less obvious it is a maze as possible
- quicktimed puzzles are annoying, quicktimed puzzles in a maze are even more annoying

Now I must admit I didn't get how all this puzzle flag and maze map and the actual maze are going to be "realistic", but maybe the modern irish flag is too obvious/out of place, unless it's a newly placed lock/puzzle. Good luck.

Oh, I just remembered The Last Crusade. There was a similar puzzle, and if you got the combination wrong, a trapdoor opened beneath you depositing you into another room, rather than the door taking you to the wrong room until you get the puzzle right. That'd solve the teleportation issue.

Yeah, that might be something that can be modified to fit in.

[poc301]

Snarky:

The maze is just a small part of the game.  It is the "path" the player takes to find.. well.. I don't want to give it away  As for it being too easy, it isn't a map per se..  It is a diagram on a wall with some letters in red.  The only things you can actually read on the poster.  The letters are L, R, U, D for left, right, up and down.  And when asked, the shop owner says something about it being the way a folk-legend in Gaelic lore travelled to find.. well.. exactly what it is you're looking for in the game (again, not saying what since it'd ruin the game).  There is indeed a reason for teleporting.  The game is heavy in magic-lore.  Its magic!  The rooms are different, yes.  In fact, each of the 3 rooms you can be dumped in have different ways of entering/exiting them (directional, not puzzles).  Thanks for the comments on MC2.  I am taking all critiques to heart with MC3, and I have (I hope) corrected most if not all of what you've mentioned in this one.  For the end puzzle in MC2, I am not sure since its been so long, but I think there was something mentioned about going back for the final info..  Not sure though without looking.

Mr. Flibble

The game is about magic and ancient lore.  That is how the teleportation thing works

GarageGothic

 I wasn't planning on having the player return.  I guess they COULD..  I might just do that.  It could help someone who missed the solutions.  The idea about cave art drawings could work..  Thanks

Anian

There is no backtracking as of now.  The maze will only be traversed once, so no going back again.  There are no dead-ends (gameplay-wise... it IS a maze ).  I am trying to have a creepy ambiance in it, not a "walk the maze" feel.  There are no timers at all in the maze, puzzle-wise or else.  The whole thing is magic..  It is kind of the entire feel of this portion of the game so I am not too worried about "real world" as far as this portion goes.  Once the player gets to this part of the game, the Gaelic and Irish lore is so drilled into them I am hoping they'd think of the flag colors.


Thanks all,

BIll

[Mr Flibble]

Magic away, in that case. 

[Snarky]

Also, something that is not clear from your description is whether or not the player will be able to backtrack to the Gaelic shop for clues. If so, not only must any player who hasn't noticed/don't remember the clues and get the puzzle wrong first get teleported to a random room, then find their way out the maze, return to the store (if they even realize that's where you get the clues), then go return through their maze to the puzzle.

I thought the clue in the Gaelic shop was for the maze itself, not the exit puzzle. So by the time they fail the puzzle, they'll already have explored the maze, and there won't be any point going back to the store. Right? (Actually, this argues that there's little point teleporting players around the maze at that point, since they'll already have solved it. It's just an inconvenience. It would make more sense - but be more annoying - if every time, the "exit" where you had to solve this puzzle moved to another place in the labyrinth so you'd have to search for it again.)

I'm personally not very keen on teleportation by magic. That reminds me more of Ben Jordan 4 (the infinite corridor thingy), which is probably my least favorite puzzle in the whole series. And as magic goes, teleporting is really unsubtle, but over short distances not a very effective protection/deterrent, so if you consider it realistically it comes across as a really powerful but at the same time pretty clumsy and pointless spell to cast. That's why the end-puzzle in MI2 is presented as a spell repeatedly misfiring: because deliberately teleporting you over to the next room as a form of punishment would be a silly thing to do.

[GarageGothic]

I thought the clue in the Gaelic shop was for the maze itself, not the exit puzzle.

4) There are a few Irish flags on the wall of the Gaelic store, so the flag is there to see.

[Snarky]

But surely that's just to make absolutely sure all players have the information they need to solve the puzzle. Really, who doesn't know what the Irish flag looks like? (According to Wikipedia it was created in 1848 but first came to be regarded as a national flag in 1916, BTW. Does that work with the chronology of the backstory?)

[GarageGothic]

True, most players probably do know what an Irish flag look like (though I'd probably make one wrong guess on the position of the green/orange sections). Still, if you don't know or don't remember from earlier in the game, there should be a hint in-game to avoid a walking dead (or searching the information outside the game, something which never should be necessary *curses the astrological puzzle in Black Mirror*).

[Mr Flibble]

I live in Northern Ireland and I wouldn't be able to say with 100% certainty whether green or gold came first in the Irish flag. 


Edit: Well actually as soon as I said "gold" instead of orange, I remembered "Green, white and gold", (the Irish eqivalent of "Red, white and blue") which handily informs the order of the colours.

[poc301]

The flag is the flag, so yes the chronology fits my game.  I am not having some kind of alternate timeline or anything, and it takes place in modern times (though some have commented on the screenshots looking kind of 1980s-ish).

Thanks everybody for the comments and thoughts on this puzzle.  I want to have something in there with the maze, since the thing you're searching for is mentioned several times in dialogs in the game, and how other people have done it in the past. 

I just need to make 100% sure I don't restrict someone in their ability to solve it.  Also, to clarify, the puzzle room itself takes place within the firist 5 screens of the maze, with a total of 9 rooms able to be walked to (including the teleportation dump-off rooms) at that point.  After solving the puzzle, there are 9 more rooms to go through on the 'correct path' and an additional 9 filler rooms.  The maze isn't huge, and at the puzzle point there isn't too terribly much to walk through.

Thanks!

-Bill

[Wesray]

I love maze puzzles for some odd reason, my own game will have one too. Your flag puzzle sounds interesting and the labyrinth doesn't seem too huge and intimidating, so IMHO you should definitely keep it. Actually the whole gaelic magic underground maze thing reminds me of a fantasy book I once read.