More Panel Ratings Discussion

[Dualnames]

Progress is important because it  turns the rating into something illogical. If the last game (CQ2) has 3 cups and the next game is better, the 2 cups rating isn't logic.

And well, for me the game is more enjoyable than the other Cosmos Quest. Ok, it's my opinion and the AGS reviewer has other opinion but with this system, the opinion of ONE person is more important than the opinion of a lot of people.

Why the user rating needs five votes to be showed? Why the AGS review is made for a one person and has more importance than the user ratings? That's the key, for me.

Kapputnik said that game reviews differ. For example DITR. It was reviewed to be 7/10 in some sites, and others 10/10. It depends on what YOU like on a game. And seriously people, if you judge games by screenshots/ratings/views/comments you're just getting a pic of the game, and doesn't mean you'll agree to that point. Hell, check the comments on this:

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=820

If it wasn't for either the rating or the panel's rating, people would consider this to be really great game. But it's not. If Harg values his effort, then he should remember that sometimes it's not the goal but the journey.

2 cup game means it's reasonable! For the love of god. It's not bad! Lots of good games are rated 2 cups.

[Helme]

Why the AGS review is made for a one person and has more importance than the user ratings?

For my decision if I want to give a game a try or not the user ratings are more important.
But I think this is a minority opinion.

@Dual
Wow! You created the "best AGS game ever" that's "not recommended to anyone" 

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Progress is important because it  turns the rating into something illogical. If the last game (CQ2) has 3 cups and the next game is better, the 2 cups rating isn't logic.

Whether or not the next game (or any game) is better is subjective and entirely dependent on an individual's response to the game.  The rating system is no different than a player rating in that respect; the only difference is that it's one 'critic' vs many.  ALL ratings like this are subjective opinions and should never ever be taken as a personal attack, nor should they be taken so seriously that you have a hissy fit and remove your games from the database.  If you don't like the rating then either ignore it or try to improve on some of the criticisms offered in the comment (both by the judge and by other players).  Some people are better equipped to deal with criticism than others.  It's clear that you are not one of these people, Harg, and therefore I wonder why you place your games where they are judged by anyone at all?  You could just as easily host them on your own webspace and offer a link in the Completed Games forum and no one suffers as a result.  When you open yourself up to criticism by placing a product out there in a place where it is compared and judged then you should be man or woman enough to handle the consequences, period.

As for Calin, indeed it's the only part of the panel I find unjust.

Fair, unfair is a matter of pure 100% opinion when it comes to game ratings.  The person who played the game and rated it had a very specific experience unique from your own or anyone elses and that's how it should be.  Please get over this whole 'it's unfair because I don't like the rating' rant, all of you.

That's all I have to say on this for now.

[Iliya]

When you open yourself up to criticism by placing a product out there in a place where it is compared and judged then you should be man or woman enough to handle the consequences, period.

ProgZmax, I was open to criticism - almost 4 or 5 years, but not anymore. I agreed with all critics about Cosmos Quest 1 and Cosmos Quest 2. I fixed everything for the Cosmos Quest 3 (1 style graphics, main character sprite was changed, and of course pixel hunt that you will never stop complaining).
For the pixel hunt:
- I tried to use bigger objects, hotspots and characters.
- I placed label (gui) when the mouse is over hotspot, character or object
- when the mouse is over exit of the current room - a mouse cursor is changing to "GO" and a label is appearing also to tell the player that there is a exit. Also the double click - so the player don't have to wait until the character reach the edge of the screen.

What do you want more to stop complain about pixel hunt? Do you want me to place an arrows in every room where the player can walk? NOW WAY. It's a game. It's a challenge! It's not a movie!

And all these pixel-hunt improvements were added/applied to the previous 2 games and I make special posts here on the forum. Of course there was no reaction for these improvements from AGS PANEL. Did someone remake the review after these improvements ? No. Why? Because no one told you? But when I deleted the games, you immediately came with the reaction.

I don't like the way you are treating the games. The games are the valuable content here in AGS website, not the reviews (if someone can call that a review - just a few lines). Support the game makers!

[Find Therma]

Now don't ge me wrong, anyone who puts stuff out there for other people to play/read etc, should be prepared to accept that not everyone is going to like their work. This is VERY important if you're going to release stuff to the public. However...

Fair, unfair is a matter of pure 100% opinion when it comes to game ratings.  The person who played the game and rated it had a very specific experience unique from your own or anyone elses and that's how it should be.

Exactly! So why should that person's opinion be displayed more prominently than the opinions of others? I can certainly see why people would be opposed to it. If it was a bunch of people who came to the same conclusion then that's different. Hence why the User Rating's system is far more informative and apropriate in my opinion.

Please get over this whole 'it's unfair because I don't like the rating' rant, all of you.

I was under the impression this was supposed to be a community...

[IndieBoy]

I would be most willing to discuss the topic, but not really in this thread.

Well I see you guys have been busy then 
To be honest I'm disappointed in the reason behind all of this game removal.
I think I'm going to start a little side project and give all you AGSers the glory cups you want, and you may deserve.
My view on the whole panel thing is clear. It's for the database, ie computing a subjective medium into a number or "score" so that it is easily organised and indexed. Not to be an official review of the game. Increasing the rating because they tried a little harder this time would corrupt the system and would in-turn affect the whole community. The comment is just to justify the rating, to avoid confrontation and suggest weaker areas to be improved.

Man. I wish space pirates got 2cups... before I turned it into a Demo of course 

As for Cosmos Quest, I'm sad I don't have the opportunity to play these games, and now I know I will definitely never play them.

[Dualnames]

ProgZ, big fail there with all the respect.

I think the community is friendly, though I find two things on this matter wrong.

1. Harg's decision to remove your games.

You could have pmed Andail and complain to him in private and not make this whole thing as public as you did. That shows you respect the community and the guys on the panel that are working hard, little.

2. Why do you care that one guy's opinion will make your game look bad?

What about the BAD comments you can't remove?
Also, I totally agree with IndieBoy.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Harg:

You point to having fixed many 'problems' that plagued your previous games, but I think you fail to see that bugs/gameplay issues are only a part of a game.  There's also whether or not a person enjoyed the visuals, the music, the game itself, and enjoyment is a big part of whether or not a person is going to like your game.  Sometimes really buggy games draw attention for just being fun while highly polished games with nothing interesting going on do not draw attention.  I'm not saying this applies to you as I have not played your latest game but it's something to consider.  I'm also not sure what you mean by games being 'valuable content' either, exactly.  They're only as valuable, as worthwhile as people find them to be, again a highly subjective thing.  One man's trash is another man's treasure.

And believe me, I do know what it's like to have a game you've spent considerable time on slapped around by people because their idea of what was good and fun differed from mine, but at the end of the day you have to let that go and realize that YOU, Harg, are not put on this Earth to please anyone.  If someone rates your game poorly or doesn't like it, who cares?  Just keep doing what you're doing if it makes you happy.

Exactly! So why should that person's opinion be displayed more prominently than the opinions of others?

Quick, go and email Gamepro and Gamespy and IGN and Gamespot and Adventuregamers and all the other sites that have single person ratings (oh and don't forget reviews!) for games that they have no place displaying them!  Back in the real world, though, sites do this sort of thing all the time and frankly I'm mystified why, when Chris Jones decides to implement a similar system on his own fucking website for games made with his own engine people are appalled?

I was under the impression this was supposed to be a community.

And I'm under the impression that there's an age limit for being part of this community along with an expected level of maturity that includes being able to take game ratings with a grain of salt, whether made by one person or 20.

ProgZ, big fail there with all the respect.

I really have no idea what you just typed.

[Iliya]

ProgZ, big fail there with all the respect.
I tt 1:hink the community is friendly, though I find two things on this matter wrong.
1. Harg's decision to remove your games.
You could have pmed Andail and complain to him in private and not make this whole thing as public as you did. That shows you respect the community and the guys on the panel that are working hard, little.
2. Why do you care that one guy's opinion will make your game look bad?
What about the BAD comments you can't remove?
Also, I totally agree with IndieBoy.

About 1: The decision to remove the games is not wrong. Actualy I thing its positive for the game and for the AGS website. After the removing the games I received many emails from other game developers that supports me (i'll keep theirs nicknames). Many of them gave very useful information about websites where I can publish the game. I'm telling you guys from AGS - I'm not the only one who's complaining from AGS PANEL.

About 2: Every AGS game developer cares about the AGS PANEL opinion. That's for sure!

[Dualnames]

1. I'm supportive enough if that's what you mean. I just suggested there was a better way to do this, than create a rant about it. You could actually replace the link here with the one of your site, without creating this off-topic.

We know. Perhaps if there are other complains it's up to the panel to decide it's actions.

2. To be honest, i'd love to take anyone's side on the matter, but I can't. I tried to stand up for the panel , but i see reasoning in your posts too.

[Calin Leafshade]

As someone who has dealt with a 2 cup panel rating I have one thing to say,

Get a grip.

What possible motive could you have for removing your game?

Its either protest or simply to avoid a bad review.
One of those is stupid and the other is dishonest.

If your game was given an undeserved 5 cups would you have removed it out of protest? I fail to see the difference.

Someone reviewed your game and gave it a less than favourable review and so you remove it.
That is essentially silencing the press.

[Khris]

It's not like the panel rating strives to be an objective, perfect rating. It's by one person and highly subjective. Therefore, it's perfectly fine to not give two shits about it, especially if it contradicts the consensus of the user ratings.

The only problem I see is that a casual player looking for recommended games might mistake the rating for an average of several judges or even all votes by a huge community. The explanatory text doesn't exactly convey the opposite either.

I didn't remove my short, crappy games although they got 1 and 2 cups, respectively. I'd feel more embarrassed if I did actually.

[Ryan Timothy B]

The more we heckle the panel, the less inclined they will be to rate games.  I do not want to see the rating panel disappearing, or them voting all under average games with 3 cups (even if they honestly felt it deserved a 1 or 2 cup).  I think they are doing a great job, let's not cease their involvement. 

The last thread about the rating system has already expressed everyone's feelings.

We should leave Harg with his decision to remove his games from the database, and he can sort it out with the panel via pm.

As far as I see it, unfortunately, this isn't a completed game thread anymore.  It should be locked.

[Find Therma]

And I'm under the impression that there's an age limit for being part of this community along with an expected level of maturity that includes being able to take game ratings with a grain of salt, whether made by one person or 20.

Yeah of course everyone should be mature - but your remark earlier stank of someone throwing his toys out of the pram...exactly what your accusing Harg of doing. So I'm sorry but if that's classed as being mature, then I'm Hulk Hogan (which I'm not by the way, in case anyone was perhaps unsure.) 

On a far more constructive note, would it perhaps be better to make it clear which member of the AGS Panel has reviewed each game? After all Progz, is is not true that all the publications you list give the name of the person judging a game? Makes it much clearer that it's just the opinion of one person...

If it's just an opinion (which it is) then why be so mysterious about whose opinion it is? To use myself as an example - if people find their opinions on games differ greatly from the views I express on my reviews blog, then they can choose not put any value in my thoughts. Knowing there opinions are often different from my own, they can choose to avoid my reviews if they wish.

The whole mysterious AGS Panel thing doesn't allow people to perhaps follow a certain critic whom they know has a similar taste to them.

I don't think it's a huge issue but it would be a shame to lose game developers because of such a problem.

[Dualnames]

The whole problem with this community is that some people go High-and-Mighty, and that's about as f4^^&$& as i can take. Can someone go rate Harg's game 5 cups? Please? And in fact go rate all under-average games with 4 cups at least?

Find Therma, that's wrong of you to ask. Imagine if I was rating games for instant and I rate a game unfairly according to its author, none would want me to rate games anymore, and Andail would have to either find another or assign games to some other guy. And if a guy overrated games, everyone would want him to rate their games.

So how about this? Rate your own games.
I'd hate to lose intergrity as a community, because somebody can't take life less seriously. You know what I've been making LC 3 for 2 years nearly. And although I improved everything and added voice acting it got rated the same cups. And you know why? Because the damn game wasn't one f^*(% enjoyable than LC 2 was. And two cups means: Worth a try! FFS it's not bad.

I'm in favor of the privacy.

Would you demand to get a lower rating if CQIII was given a 4 cup which it didn't deserve?

[ddq]

Don't complain because the panel has standards. If you want universal approval for your game, show it to your mother. Just don't be childish and remove your game out of spite.

[DrWhite]

Probably the amount of cups isn´t the problem here. My game got a 1-cup rating, but the  panel comment was really nice

"Great look and feel, and awesome music. Although the game is buggy and rather not clear. The game showed a lot of potential."

, so I didn´t care.

Probably Harg did feel more offended by the comment, than by the 2-cup rating itself.
That would be the only thing I´d like to see concerning the panel reviews: that they should be written in a nice way, as this would also fit the niceness of this community.

[Calin Leafshade]

Probably Harg did feel more offended by the comment, than by the 2-cup rating itself.
That would be the only thing I´d like to see concerning the panel reviews: that they should be written in a nice way, as this would also fit the niceness of this community.

No, that compromises the journalistic integrity of the panel.

Like any publication, the writers should be able to write what they like providing it is either true or opinion.

The only people who should have control are the panel leader (if one exists) and CJ since its his site.

[blueskirt]

The AGS panel rating is  is one of the most important elements for the majority of the people to select a game.

About 2: Every AGS game developer cares about the AGS PANEL opinion. That's for sure!

But not every players do.

Players care for screenshots, hooking story synopsis, the game's features, the way the game is presented, the persons who made the game, the gameplay, the price tags... The panel's opinion is just one variable that will be ignored everytime the screenshots or plot overview or every other variables will have the players say "Man, this game looks great, I'll give it a try!". I've played poorly rated games that were a whole lot of fun and critically acclaimed games that bored the crap out of me.

So, if you want my opinion, take the panel's opinion with a grain of salt, put the games back for download/in the database/on the forum, take into account the constructive criticism and ignore the unconstructive one, keep on making games and never forget that it's impossible to please everyone and just like there will be people who won't like your games, there will be people who will like them, who will want to play more of your games, and stopping to submit your games here or in the database will only make it harder for them to find and play your latest games.

It's your call, buddy. What do you honestly think will hurt your games more? A panel review a lot of people don't give a shit about, or that from now on your current and future games will be even harder to find?

[Le Woltaire]

The AGS panel rating is  is one of the most important elements for the majority of the people to select a game.

No... really not.
Most people that come from outside don't even know what a blue cup is.
I've never seen one in real life.
And I don't know what a blue cup has to do with point and click adventures...

Maybe this is going to be the reason why other engines will beat AGS in the future?
Shouldn't we change the logo?
Bad marketing concept to use an insider object as front page sign...