Musical question: is it OK to copy partially?

DutchMarco · Sat 25/08/2007 17:22:29

OK all, I am hearing this fantastic music right now, it would make a great sample if I could copy it and make a loop of a few seconds, looping it would last hours of course. Just what I need for my game.

But I might end up breaking a few copyright laws and I don't intend to do so (not publicly - i.e. including the song in my game - anyway). Does anyone know if it's OK to include only a sample from said song and looping it? So that's not the same as copying/distributing the entire song.

As an aside, I've stumbled upon interesting post on another website : Melo's Prog Bazaar

space boy · Sat 25/08/2007 18:23:07

It depends on the license of the song. Read the license that is attached to the song and if there is none you should assume that standard copyright law applies, in which case you can't use any part of the song without the copyright owners permission.(I'm not an expert on this, just telling what i know. correct me if I'm wrong)

Gregjazz · Sat 25/08/2007 19:16:27

Unless it's specifically free to use in your projects, I'd say probably not.

By the way, the rumor that it's okay to copy up to 4 bars of music under copyright law is entirely false.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Sat 25/08/2007 21:42:50

Well if it's a free game why not use the tune entirely? I suppose if you feel really bad about it you could contact whoever made the tune and ask if you can use it in a free game. As long as you don't take credit for the tune or try to sell a game with borrowed music it's probably nothing to worry about.

Gord10 · Sat 25/08/2007 23:21:52

I don't think it would cause problem, as well.
I had used the soundtracks of Silent Hill and some other games for my previous games, and I'm thinking of using two tracks by two famous bands for the deluxe version of my game (tracks by Rammstein and MoonSpell). I would suggest you to go on.

blueskirt · Sun 26/08/2007 01:40:56

With the number of amateur games that feature music from Final Fantasy or LucasArts games, or all these flash movies on Newgrounds that feature actual songs, I don't think one more would make a big difference. Even Dance 'Til You Drop and The Infinity String didn't feature original soundtracks and I think there couldn't have more fitting soundtracks for these games than the current ones.

If you sincerely feel that no other music could fit any better than this one, as long your game is free and as long you give credits where credits are due, I say go ahead.

ildu · Sun 26/08/2007 02:19:52

Ask Timbaland.

radiowaves · Sun 26/08/2007 21:33:54

If no-one notices or cares, you can do anything you want! So simple is that

Nikolas · Sun 26/08/2007 21:48:46

If the question is "is it ok/legal?" then no it's not legal. Recording, even a small part (not tiny though) is copyrighted, even for works which are public domain: Me recording a Beethoven sonata, is copyrighted BY ME!

If the question is "is it ok/moral?" then I do think so, as long as the game is free. It would be nice to ask, but depends on the band. some bands/artists have said yes (for example Shadowplay gave their single "alone" to be used in the game "prodigal". I assume that it was for free, but I KNOW that trisk asked for permission before using it). In the end sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask.

Tuomas · Mon 27/08/2007 00:11:11

Quote from: Gregjazz on Sat 25/08/2007 19:16:27
By the way, the rumor that it's okay to copy up to 4 bars of music under copyright law is entirely false.

Quite so, you're allowed to include a 4 bar line from a composition into yours and claim it is your own. If it goes above that, you can be accused of plagiarism.

Quote from: ildu on Sun 26/08/2007 02:19:52
Ask Timbaland.

TouchÃ©

DutchMarco · Tue 28/08/2007 11:55:08

Quote from: ildu on Sun 26/08/2007 02:19:52
Ask Timbaland.

I'm trying to, but I can't find user Timbaland. Is there anything you could tell me about this (this user / this issue) ?

Ashen · Tue 28/08/2007 12:17:59

I'd guess he's refering to this. Guy 'samples' song without permission, gets called on it, denies doing anything wrong.

Nikolas · Tue 28/08/2007 12:30:16

ashen: Bring back your old avatar please! And I'll do WHATEVER you want (as long as it's sexual nature of course

)

Anyways, Timberland is a F*cking case really, and there's been a huge discussion about the whole thing and poor Nelly, who started out SO nice, to turn out like thiss (USA seems to be doing that to decent artists, like Joss Stone maybe... :p).

anyways, before I get out of hand: If I, personally, steal a track by U2, or whatever group, TOTALLY, I can, at most, give them all my earnings. I can go bankrupt if they want, and I can sell my posetions. But guess what? I have nothing! So, unless they want to imprison me, which they won't, there's nothing to get from me.

Bottom line: With a freeware game NOBODY will mind. With a track that was sung by Nelly (poor Nelly she... whoops said that already), things change. Cause this is reverse. A nice Finnish guy, with little money and relatively unknown, and Timberland steals it. Bliah!

Thing is that:

take it like 95% sure
i. Chord progressions are NOT copyrighted. I can have a chord chart from "Let it be", make a song based to THAT chords, and nobody can touch me
ii. Sounds are NOT copyrighted. I use a synth, and so do 1000s of other people. Some companies, only some, allow solo use of their instruments. The "Lost" signal (those 5 secs with the Lost logo) are an example of that.

I can replicate that!
iii. Drum patterns, etc, are NOT copyrighted. I can copy the whole drum map from any song (but NOT the recording) and use it as fine...

With that said:

NONE of the above apply with RECORDINGS! Recordings are copyrighted themselves.

Example: Beethoven is dead for more than 200 years. ALL his works are public domain. Which means that I can make his 5th Symphony and pay NOTHING!

BUT BUT BUT

If I take a recording made in 1999 by... Karajan (who was dead at the time :p) and use that, I'm illegal!

In music there are 3 types of copyright:

1. The actual music. Phrases, etc. The melody is MINE! end of story!
2. The publication of score: Scores are worth a lot, no matter what people say. Do you know how much scores of Ligeti cost? I, as a composer, don't give the right to copy and use my music as you wish (never mind that I, personally, do). Why? Royalties! Everytime my music is heard I get paid! End of story! I want to control all that!
3. Recording. Any recording made is a FRESH copyright. If my work was composed in 1950, but I made a recording in 2007, the copyirght for the recording is valid for 70 years from 2007.

Copyight in most countries is 70 years actually!

Nikolas

PS. I'm sure that I've bored that thread to death now! I have a tendency to do that!

DutchMarco · Tue 28/08/2007 15:37:12

Thanks for the clarifications guys.

I guess I was wrong with my basic assumptions.

I've sent a mail to Spoon Records requesting permission to use (parts of) their recordings in my NON-COMMERCIAL, SUITABLE FOR ALL AGES game. I've been humble, hope it helps. Let's hope that I get a positive answer.

Steel Drummer · Wed 29/08/2007 01:46:23

Quote from: Ashen on Tue 28/08/2007 12:17:59
I'd guess he's refering to this. Guy 'samples' song without permission, gets called on it, denies doing anything wrong.

Well, it seems that most rappers/hip hop DJS and producers use 'samples' from songs without asking.

Gregjazz · Wed 29/08/2007 07:23:36

Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 27/08/2007 00:11:11
Quote from: Gregjazz on Sat 25/08/2007 19:16:27
By the way, the rumor that it's okay to copy up to 4 bars of music under copyright law is entirely false.

Quite so, you're allowed to include a 4 bar line from a composition into yours and claim it is your own. If it goes above that, you can be accused of plagiarism.

Actually I was saying that's actually illegal, contrary to the rumor, according to a fairly recent (2006) music law book.

It's best to get permission in any case.

Nikolas · Wed 29/08/2007 08:51:58

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Wed 29/08/2007 01:46:23
Quote from: Ashen on Tue 28/08/2007 12:17:59
I'd guess he's refering to this. Guy 'samples' song without permission, gets called on it, denies doing anything wrong.
Well, it seems that most rappers/hip hop DJS and producers use 'samples' from songs without asking.

Where did you get that exactly?

There are millions litteraly loops floating in the internet, ALL legal! Either royalty free, which you buy, either totally free, either whatever.

How many cases do you actually know that "most rappers/hip hop DJS and producers" use samples from songs?

Radiant · Wed 29/08/2007 10:02:21

Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 29/08/2007 08:51:58
How many cases do you actually know that "most rappers/hip hop DJS and producers" use samples from songs?

I don't know about "most", but there was a rather infamous case about fifteen years ago when a DJ encorporated samples by Pavarotti in his song...
Of course this was before the prevalence of the internet.

scotch · Wed 29/08/2007 19:22:55

The large majority of hip hop producers I can think of use samples from commercial records, or any other source of audio, only they're sensible enough to do it from either old, obscure releases that nobody cares about anymore, or have a bunch of lawyers to sort it out. Timbaland grabbed something off the internet, which was a bad idea because you really don't want to incite the wrath of the internet. Anything professional records he sampled on there were probably cleared by his lawyers, as with any other big label pop production.

Personally I'd be rather flattered, but legally, you can't reuse or base off any amount of any creative work safely, without permission.

Steel Drummer · Sat 01/09/2007 13:31:59

Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 28/08/2007 12:30:16
Thing is that:

take it like 95% sure
i. Chord progressions are NOT copyrighted. I can have a chord chart from "Let it be", make a song based to THAT chords, and nobody can touch me
ii. Sounds are NOT copyrighted. I use a synth, and so do 1000s of other people. Some companies, only some, allow solo use of their instruments. The "Lost" signal (those 5 secs with the Lost logo) are an example of that. I can replicate that!
iii. Drum patterns, etc, are NOT copyrighted. I can copy the whole drum map from any song (but NOT the recording) and use it as fine...

With that said:

NONE of the above apply with RECORDINGS! Recordings are copyrighted themselves.

Example: Beethoven is dead for more than 200 years. ALL his works are public domain. Which means that I can make his 5th Symphony and pay NOTHING!

BUT BUT BUT

If I take a recording made in 1999 by... Karajan (who was dead at the time :p) and use that, I'm illegal!

In music there are 3 types of copyright:

1. The actual music. Phrases, etc. The melody is MINE! end of story!
2. The publication of score: Scores are worth a lot, no matter what people say. Do you know how much scores of Ligeti cost? I, as a composer, don't give the right to copy and use my music as you wish (never mind that I, personally, do). Why? Royalties! Everytime my music is heard I get paid! End of story! I want to control all that!
3. Recording. Any recording made is a FRESH copyright. If my work was composed in 1950, but I made a recording in 2007, the copyirght for the recording is valid for 70 years from 2007.

Copyight in most countries is 70 years actually!

Nikolas

PS. I'm sure that I've bored that thread to death now! I have a tendency to do that!

Which brings to mind a question I had about copyright issues (and since this thread is all about that, I thought 'Hey, why bother starting a new thread'). Anyways, my question is this:
There's a game I'm working on, and for the credits theme, I want to do a song (very original, I know). However, instead of just doing a tinny MIDI-style song for the credits, I'm thinking about doing a regular song (possibly recorded with my band, or else I'll use my synthesizer/instruments I have) with vocals, etc. The guy who I'm working with for the game says he wants a reggae style theme for the credits, and rather than working on lyrics and everything, I think it would just be easier to do a cover of a reggae tune (or maybe even reggae-ize a classic rock tune). Is this legal to do? I know a lot of artists have covered each other, but do they have to pay royalties or anything? I wouldn't be using any samples from the song(s), just the same chord progressions and lyrics.