Propose some fan-made adventures to cover in The Inventory

[GarageGothic]

Nellie beat me to posting what I actually meant to say.

But hats off to The Inventory if they bring some attention to all the great - not to mention finished! - amateur adventure games out there, rather than uncritically praising games in production, just because they share the name of a once-succesful game series.

Not that I mind reading about these titles (in fact, I've read the KQIX preview four times or so, and the FOY interview was great) but to be honest, that SQ7 preview read like a press release. And as somebody else pointed out, few of the technical details on pre-rendered backgrounds and characters and comparisons with EFMI made much sense.
I respect that the person who wrote the article didn't have a lot of insight into the technical side of things. But maybe someone like m0ds, who actually KNOWS how games are made, would be better suited for the job. Or at least having someone like that proofread the articles. Otherwise you'll become a publicity tool for the game designers.

I LOVE The Inventory. I've read the back issues countless times and I'm always looking forward to the next. Just beware of mindlessly quoting other people's self-praise.

[remixor]

I don't have much to add that hasn't been said, but I'd just like to express my displeasure with the usage of graphics as some sort of quality filter.  Anyone familiar with enough AGS games should know that's an absurd criteria, even when only a partial one.

[Quintaros]

I think graphics have to be at least partially considered when rating a game.  Saying that graphics don't matter in games is like saying cinematography doesn't matter in films.  Of course graphics matter, but great graphics won't make a bad game good and terrible graphics don't make an otherwise great game bad.

Ultimately I think the inventory should review games regardless of graphics but still consider the graphics when assigning an overall rating.

[DGMacphee]

Quintaros, I disgaree with your comparison between graphics in games and cinematography in films.

Cinematography can be utilised to establish a mise-en-scene to symbolically create meaning (And for a brilliant example, see Conrad L. Hall's cinematorgraphy in Richard Brooks' In Cold Blood, especially the final scene with Robert Blake at the window.)

Graphics in adventures, on the other hand, are purely cosmetic, as I have yet to see an adventure game that creates a mise-en-scene with it's graphics.

Grim Fandango came close, utilising a mise-en-scene to satirise certain famous scenes in noir and classic films (e.g. Touch of Evil, Casablanca).

But that's a very rare example.

[remixor]

Besides DG's rather specific (yet valid) point, I would like to point out that amateur games must be put on an entirely different scale than commercial games, and cannot be considered analagous to movies.  Even independent movies have relative budgets that far exceed those of amateur games--and I'm sure that in 99.99% of the cases amateur games don't have any budget at all.  There is simply no comparison.

[Quintaros]

I haven't seen In Cold Blood but I gather you're referring to the scene where raindrops on a window appear like tears on the face looking out?

Yeah maybe few games attempt such symbolism but it is a visual medium so the potential for symbolism is at least there.  Maybe I'm missing the point as I'm not precisely sure of the meaning of mise-en-scene.

My comparison between films and games was only to say that they were both made up of many elements, visual included.

Yes most films have a higher budget than amateur games but amateur games don't need a budget.  I'd love to be an amateur filmmaker but it requires a lot of money and help from others.  Making games is virtually free it just requires time and patience.  Therefore anything is possible in games in my mind so why shouldn't we push the envelope a little.

[MrColossal]

i'm realllly sorry to interrupt but i just had to say...


In Cold Blood the movie sucked hardcore... compared to the book it was just a bunch of random things thrown together to get the story across..

blarg blarg...

but anway
END

[Quintaros]

Maybe it sucked as a whole but had really good cinematography.

[DGMacphee]

Mise-en-scene is the composition and framing of scenes in films.

You are right to suggest that both films and games use visual elements -- However, both mediums utilise them in different ways, as I stated.

And yes, the potential is there, except very few games have done so.

Let me put it this way: If Hitchcock or Kubrick were still alive and made a game, imagine what it'd look like.


Eric: I thought In Cold Blood was great -- not sensational but it was great.

But as Quintaros said, it does have first-class cinematography done by a master of his industry (and it's a pity he died last year).


On a related note, Conrad L hall repeated his raindrops on window motif in Road to Perdition -- you'll see it in the scene after the first shooting where Tom Hanks is alone in the car with his son.

The cinematography in that film was also first-rate and practically summed up Hall's career, in my own opinion.

[Quintaros]

Okay I don't really think we're even disagreeing that much here.

Suggesting that Kubrick or Hitchcock could make a very different looking game kind of supports what I'm saying about games having the potential to be as visually evocative as films.  I don't think only filmmakers are capable of doing this but anyone with a strong visual sense.  I see a lot of people like that in this community and I think its selling their efforts short to say graphics have no impact on overall game quality.

Personally I put a great deal of effort into finding the right compostion and framing of the backgrounds for my game.  If that's all that mise-en-scene is then I'd say games are capable of it.

[remixor]

The cinematography in that film was also first-rate and practically summed up Hall's career, in my own opinion.

Not to mention, in my opinion, it turned that movie from a good one into a great one.  Visually, it was absolutely stunning.  Hall really was a genius of his craft.

[Migs]

What about the game Apprentice?  It may be a short game, but it's strikingly good.  http://www.sonic.net/~schlae/herculeaneffort/

This game hasn't been reviewed already, has it?

[DGMacphee]

Okay I don't really think we're even disagreeing that much here.

Suggesting that Kubrick or Hitchcock could make a very different looking game kind of supports what I'm saying about games having the potential to be as visually evocative as films.  I don't think only filmmakers are capable of doing this but anyone with a strong visual sense.  I see a lot of people like that in this community and I think its selling their efforts short to say graphics have no impact on overall game quality.

Personally I put a great deal of effort into finding the right compostion and framing of the backgrounds for my game.  If that's all that mise-en-scene is then I'd say games are capable of it.

But the thing is no one has really done it yet -- Most of the background I've seen are fairly plain when it comes to a meaningful composition.

Okay, let me throw you an example -- Ever see Psycho?

Remember the scene where Janet Leigh is eating bread with Anthony Perkins?

Have a good look at the background (if you haven't seen it) while you listen to their conversation.

I've never seen an adventure game that utilises backgrounds to establish meaning in that way.

[Dave Gilbert]

Remember the scene where Janet Leigh is eating bread with Anthony Perkins?

Have a good look at the background (if you haven't seen it) while you listen to their conversation.

It's those stuffed and mounted birds!  They freaked me out, man!

[Quintaros]

Yeah I know Psycho pretty well.  But I'm not entirely certain of what you trying to illustrate with this example.  Do you mean the quiet creepiness of the mounted birds or the foreshadowing of the nature of mother?

Quote: "I've never seen an adventure game that utilises backgrounds to establish meaning in that way."

That may be true.  I've probably played fewer adventure games than most of the community here.  It's clear that you really appreciate the visual storytelling of films so why would you not support more visual meaning in games?  If few games are achieving it than there's all the more reason to promote it.

[DGMacphee from work]

Because visuals are the main focus of films, while interactivity is the main focus of adventure games.

Since interactivity and narrative rely upon each other (i.e. the narrative advances with interactions), an adventure game can exist without graphics (i.e. text adventures).

My main point here is not to suggest graphics don't and can't contribute (obviously they do) -- However, my point is to suggest that graphics are not necessary to make a great game.

Visuals, on the other hand, are necessary to make a film.

[DGMacphee from work]

As for Psycho, I mean both and more -- The scene's composition creates a creepy atmosphere, foreshadows the mother, and symbolises the relationship between Leigh and Perkins (i.e. at one point Perkins even comments that Leigh "eats like a bird" and then comments the phrase "eat like a bird" is a myth as birds eat rather ravenously)

[Quintaros]

Because visuals are the main focus of films, while interactivity is the main focus of adventure games.

I think storytelling is the main focus of films and visuals merely play a role.  Interactivity is the main focus of games and again visuals play a role.  

[DGMacphee from work]

Okay then, you have a story for a film and take away the visuals as a role -- what do you have?

Nothing but a story -- The visuals are needed for a film.

However, you have a story for a game and you take away the visuals -- what do you have?

A text adventure -- graphics aren't needed to relay the story.

The role of cinematography is VITAL to cinema -- That is the whole basis of cinema.

Without the visuals, you can't tell your story as a film.

Whereas, the role of graphics in an adventure is minor to the point of unnecessary.

With an adventure game, you can simply use text, and as long as it remains interactive and contains a narrative, you'll have an adventure.

[Quintaros]

Well I can't argue with that.  You take away the visuals to a film and you got a radio play; you take away the visuals to an adventure game and you've got a text adventure.    But we're not making text adventures here (at least I don't think anybody is but I could be wrong about a few).  If we're going to make graphical point and click adventure games than some emphasis should be put on the graphics.