I find it very annoying how games like FoY or The Apprentice get so much publicity (even during the production phase); and games equally as good, if not better, like Legend Of The Lost Lagoon or Chronicles Of The Red Knight are only read about on the AGS site. I don't think it's because of the developer publicizing it, because the games are mostly picked up by magazines and the like; but certain are so hyped up and they don't turn out nearly as good as planned (I know the backgrounds, sprites, and music in FoY were great, but quite a few people, including myself, found it really glitchy; and we waited years for the demo). It seems like almost any game made by the South African AGS gamers (who are some of the best), buloght, Mordalles, and Afflict, aren't even reviewed on sites like Adventure Gamers. And it's not just because they're from an obscure location, there are famous AGSers from all over the place.
On the other hand, sorry for sounding so harsh about FoY, but I think that these other developers need some publicity too. I'm not saying that FoY is entirely bad, but we have some other good developers who are releasing games faster than Screen 7. I'm done telling my opinion, now I want to know what you guys think about this issue...
Very few AGSers have bothered with promoting their games, and most games go unnoticed by many external reviewers, so if you're concerned about it try telling them about the games. FoY gets a lot of promotion because people remember the Indy games fondly, and it's a well made fan game. The Ben Jordan games, and the Apprentice games, or anything Yahtzee releases have their followings, so they usually get noticed too now.
I must admit I haven't seen the games you mentioned, I don't know how worthy of attention they are, but if you consider them very good and want to share them about then maybe send a link to some review sites.
Personally I wouldn't bother because I don't care enough about gaining a large audience, probably a lot of AGSers feel the same way, and that's why we don't do promotion.
I'm not overly concerned about getting the less famous games promoted, I just think that they should get as much attention as the other guys' (and girls') games. Also, I don't see why a game like Spooks gets more attention from external sources than a huge epic game like Mordy 2. Most AGS games aren't really promoted too much, unless it's a commercial game like The Shivah.
Actually, with Spooks, acting as the game's publisher, I sent emails to various adventure game sites telling them about the game in hopes that they would post a news post or a review about the game. Did Mordalles try the same things with Mordy 2?
We're a small niche community. Not a whole lot of people outside of our community are interested in what we do here, or it at least takes some convincing to make them interested. If you want more publicity for a certain game, then publicize it. Complaining about it in this forum isn't going to do much good.
I have 3 short games, I don't think they are worth promotion. I know mordalles doesn't really like promoting his games too. We don't want to be dragged into this (but thanks anyway yoda :) ).
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 07/01/2007 00:48:41
I find it very annoying how games like FoY or The Apprentice get so much publicity (even during the production phase)
First of all, thanks for your support! It's great how AGSers support their fellow community members.
Okay, I just couldn't resist that. I'm sorry you feel that way about Apprentice. We spent a lot of work on those games and released them for free, so it's kinda disappointing to hear a response like that. And by the way, we spent hardly any time publicizing Apprentice. We announced it on AGS forums, and that was about as far as our publicity efforts went. I guess the games caught on because people enjoyed them, and our whole mission was to bring some fun to people.
FoY is a long-term project which, even though it's taking a long time to complete and release, still maintains interest because in my opinion it represents that nostalgia we have for those old Lucasarts Indiana Jones games. When the game is released it'll be cool because we can relive some of that same feeling from Fate of Atlantis and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
I'm really looking forward to Legend Of The Lost Lagoon, and if it's as good a game as I think it's going to be, I'm sure it's going to get all sorts of publicity and praise.
Well if there are games just as good as those that are going to get finished faster, in my opinion, they should be more public. Don't get me wrong, I really like The Apprentice, but I'm tired of having so many reviews and stuff online for it yet nothing for this treasure trove of great games which, apparently, no one outside the AGS community knows about.
EDIT:
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 07/01/2007 00:48:41
I find it very annoying how games like FoY or The Apprentice get so much publicity (even during the production phase)
Allow me to rephrase that: I find it annoying how games like FoY and The Apprentice get so much hype. It's like Tom Cruise. The media gets hysterical if he even blinks. Who cares?
I don't see the point in comparing games that exist, such as Apprentice or the FoY demo, with games that do not, such as Legend of the Lost Lagoon and Chronicles of the Red Knight. Given the large proportion of announced AGS projects that are never completed, it would be ridiculous if these games received as much attention as games that are out there for people to play. How much press did FOY get outside the AGS community before the demo? Not much.
Given the level of hype in its GIP thread, I'm sure that if and when LOTLL is released, it will not be overlooked, either.
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 07/01/2007 05:39:50
Well if there are games just as good as those that are going to get finished faster, in my opinion, they should be more public. Don't get me wrong, I really like The Apprentice, but I'm tired of having so many reviews and stuff online for it yet nothing for this treasure trove of great games which, apparently, no one outside the AGS community knows about.
EDIT:
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 07/01/2007 00:48:41
I find it very annoying how games like FoY or The Apprentice get so much publicity (even during the production phase)
Allow me to rephrase that: I find it annoying how games like FoY and The Apprentice get so much hype. It's like Tom Cruise. The media gets hysterical if he even blinks. Who cares?
Keep in mind that the first Apprentice has been out for over four years, and therefore I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of reviews out there on the game. As Snarky said, there's a big difference in how much publicity a game gets depending on whether it has been released or is still in production. And as our fans well know, we keep our upcoming games pretty secretive, so there's really not much publicity at all before the release.
And you know what, I'm really sure great games in production such as LOTLL aren't being overlooked--people are just anticipating its release. In fact, the thread for it in GiP has 30263 views at the moment I'm posting this. Sounds like a lot of people know about the game to me.
QuoteHow much press did FOY get outside the AGS community before the demo? Not much.
Very true. Anyone has the same amount of chance getting good publicity. You just have to make something that will appeal greatly to the public eye. FoA2 has had several PC magazine articles in the past, double-spreads in fact. Sorry that you feel this way Yodaman, but really, it is just you. You have to ask yourself, are you just looking for mass publicity? I'm certainly not. The fact that happens is a bonus but it's not like FoY is designed to get me, Screen 7 or the developers famous. We're doing it because we love FoA - which I've said millions of times. So, why do you need "so much" publicity? I remember the days when developers used to get emails from people saying how much they enjoyed playing their games and that was satisfying enough. Surely that is for anybody, I know it is for me. Also in our defence, have you played demo version 1.1 yet, or are you still ranting on about 1.0?
QuoteI don't think it's because of the developer publicizing it, because the games are mostly picked up by magazines and the like
Er, yes. You said it yourself. So why did you say all the rest? If your game falls into public eye then so be it, if not then so what? There are plenty of games here that have been played by thousands of people and been enjoyed. If anything, I detect jealousy.
You shouldn't expect your game to get loads of coverage - if you want press, then you'll have to pimp your game. We've been posting about The Forgotten Element absolutely everywhere (we posted on every adventure related forum we could find and because of this we're now on Strategy Informer, Adventure Lantern, and we have a banner and interview on www.gibbage.co.uk - and the game isn't even out yet) and we shall do another bout of shameless self-promotion when the prologue is released. Even in commercial games land, games do not self-promote unless you happen to be working on something controversial (controversial == cheap marketing).
The fact that games such as you mention (FoY, Apprentice, Spooks, etc) do get coverage is great (even if it would be nicer if more games got mentioned) because it helps spread the word of AGS and perhaps bring more people here - you shouldn't get annoyed that these same games are mentioned all the time, you should feel inspired to improve and promote your own work to get it recognised along with these titles.
Cap'n Binky
I'm not complaining that my game doesn't get promotion. I'm complaining that other games which are better than the hyped up games aren't getting promos.
So, you're basically moaning pointlessly. It's not something in our control, or yours. Captain Binky makes a good point.
Quoteyou shouldn't get annoyed that these same games are mentioned all the time, you should feel inspired to improve and promote your own work to get it recognised along with these titles.
Games being better are a matter of taste, and here it's obviously just yours and very few other peoples. Maybe there are more people that feel the same and they should come forward, but as they don't, I can only guess the rest have no problems with AGS games that get good coverage.
Any publicity is good publicity.
Yoda: Our games aren't that impressive, mordalles didn't even wanna release Duty and Beyond, he thought it was a bad game. Please don't mention our games as we do not think it requires any promotion or hype, there is a reason a games like FOY and Apprentice gets so far, they are professional quality, not just another average AGS games.
"Yislike"
I read this and went WOW, that these titles inspired someone so much that he took it to heart.
On this subject, I just want to say : Different strokes for different folks. Some like it hot... and there are probably a million ways to say it. People like different things and some things appeal more to them than others.
The same with the guys maybe looking for games they want to put in the magazine or site.
I personally haven't released anything yet, however the reason I do work on the art and the work i do is not for some game reviewer to go. "Well done Afflict here let me review your game and slander it all over the net" it's because I like the idea that somewhere I will make some people enjoy there day a little more, and maybe, just maybe get someone to take the next step in making there own art, work or even game!
In conclusion : m0ds has a good point, any publicity is good publicity, not just for the specific game, but for the community as a whole. AGS from CJ and every other game over released in AGS, noted on this website.
Afflict.
I promoted Heartland Deluxe on Adventure Gamers, as I already happened to be a forum member, but that's about the limit of any calculated promotion on my part. I submitted it to Adventure Developers when Erwin_br posted his thread here asking for any new games, if that counts as promotion.
Everything else just happened on its own (the Czech review on plnehry.idnes.cz, the walkthrough and database add to GameBoomers, coverage on a couple of indy game blogs, etc).
These things just happen. A few games do dominate the coverage of AGS in the mainstream gaming media, but they are popular games and they've had time to accumulate any following or cache they might hold within the indy game scene.
I don't really see a problem, but each to his own. :)
Quote from: buloght on Sun 07/01/2007 17:40:43
Yoda: Our games aren't that impressive, mordalles didn't even wanna release Duty and Beyond, he thought it was a bad game. Please don't mention our games as we do not think it requires any promotion or hype, there is a reason a games like FOY and Apprentice gets so far, they are professional quality, not just another average AGS games.
Well, theirs are more professional because the grammar and music in the games is better. Your graphics are just as good as theirs though. Look how many sprite jams you SA guys have won! That alone shows that you can release a game just as good as them.
No it doesnt.
Graphics don't make a game. I'd hope that someone with YOUR artisistic talent would know that, otherwise you should just give up now.
Story and music and accuracy all make a good game, not graphics.
I improved my art.
Yoda, everybody's on the same side here. We all want AGS games to get the attention they diserve. There isn't like some conspiracy in which some people's games are getting sidelined.
Don't complain here about it, take a proactive stance. Post in some other message boards about a game you like. Send an email to a website that might want to review it. The worst that could happen is that they could not respond. This thread isn't helping anyone.
Why are using the word them? I have allways seen the whole AGS community as a big family. And to me it seems like you dislike they who have got alot of puplicity. I think it is great that there is AGS games at all being "talked" about out there. This is just the beginning and i think only more and more games will get noticed as the time goes by. Also sometimes people have to work more to get puplicity. It does not allways promote itself. (phew. Getting tired writing all this on a mobile phone.)
That whole publicity thing is like Damokles' sword too, so I wouldn't be surprised if many people here aren't too eager to boost their works in progress because it can backfire. And hurt big.
Many games that are well known are team efforts. In a team, you can shift your resources much better. Making people outside the AGS forums know about your project puts a lot of pressure on a lone wolf or even a small team. Because suddenly people expect something, and all of a sudden you have to deal with that pressure, and you may well fear to release that heart-child of yours.
Apart from that, I too can't see SteelDrummer's point. There are many projects out here that are defenitely known- LOTLL is a great example; for quite a while there was intense discussion about it, the graphics were adored, and now, I think, people (including myself) just wait. That's just polite, isn't it- I don't yell "Publish it!". I wait in the happy knowledge that sometime I will get a cool game.
One thing about the Apprentice and the Herculean Brothers who are behind it: They are also working outside their own team, making things like the Blackwell Legace possible, so I wouldn't say a thing about them taking long time for their games. The Apprentice games are works of quality and very, very typical oldschool adventures. That's why people talk about them. There will always be anticipation for the sequel of a quality game, that's why Yathzee is so popular too IMO.
Just my two cents, and here's another dime: Just a few weeks ago, in a thread about "most anticipated games", I found my own project mentioned twice, and I've kept that without any WiP thread or further comment for almost two years. It was remembered though because some people enjoyed a small demo those days and kept it somewhere in the back of their minds. Talk about hypesÃ, ;)
you sure demolished my argument.
The point im making is that just because your art sucks, doesnt mean that the story and music arent good. Good art also doesnt mean an instantly great game. A well rounded game is what is needed for success. It seems most people who yu have used for example understand this, im not sure why you are struggling to.
i had fun with that little xmas mags game trying to make th xmas tree. the graphics were by no means perfect. but was still enjoyable to play. So in that i totally agree that graphics dont make the game. I guess you have two chances to get your game recognised. The 1st when its in production and you make that 1st post about your game and hope others will be anxious to play the final game. the 2nd time will be when its done and you post about it in the other section. Im glad to see the two posts that are going around. the 1st being "most anticipated games" and the other being "Unrated games in the archive" both threads designed to give some publicity to some games that kinda got forgotten or passed by. That whole thing about releaseing your heart child could easily go for the single programer as much as with the big team. I hope there is nervousness about how my game will be recieved when i finish it but then i just remind myself that "fun" is the major reason for me doing this. Its not something that will help my finances so i dont have a whole lot riding on it besides my artistic pride.
I'll just put in my lil two cents, here. If you want publicity, you have to go out and work for it. Finishing the game and putting it on the AGS forum isn't the end. That 15 minutes of fame is over VERY fast. To keep something out there, in the public eye, capturing peoples' interest, you have to get out there and promote.
The AGS community is like a big family, true, but this is primarily a community of game creators. Not players. While there are certainly a large number of players here, that's not the main purpose of this forum. If you want your game to reach the ears of game players, you have to go where the game players are.
A game can be great. It can be the best game ever. But if nobody actually hears about it, nobody will ever play it. Marketing and promoting is a necessary evil, I'm afraid.
While I agree that Graphics don't make the game, and a game can be horrible and have great graphics, and a game can be great with horrible graphics. However, in the context of actually publicity...great graphics pull more people into a game. It's one of the first things you see, and, consequently, one of the first things you judge a game on, before it even comes out.
AGS does have several hidden gems, and I wish that more people knew about them. But the publicity of any game is left to the designer/publisher and its fans. Games like Apprentice became well publicized because it had a fan base. Regardless of whether you like the games or not...other people liked them, and passed on the game to other people.
So as people have been saying, if you enjoy other games, it's up to you to generate buzz about it. And this is true of games outside of AGS...some games just don't generate the amount of publicity and sales that they deserve. It happens.
-MillsJROSS
Like Dave said, somewhere along the line you have to do a lot of work publicizing your games in order to build that fan base in the first place.
Making a game <> Marketing a game <> Promoting a game
Yoda, did the right thing in posting here, as this thread is promoting an interesting discussion. People who want to, but may not know how, should try harder to promote their games. There are tons of places to let the people know about your game. Forums, sites, magazines, friends, whatever...
I mean the "What Linus Bruckman Sees When his Eyes Are Closed" semi-adventure game got around 1000 downloads in a couple of days alone... (After that it went up to around 1500, and that's it :-/). It's not the most appealing game in the world, as it is quite weird, but as an example LOTS of musicians know about it through me. (SOL forums, CGEmpire forums, KVRaudio, Northernsounds, Young composers and the list goes on...). I mean these forums hold some times more than 100,000 members! So, why not?
(*ahem*... plus I never fail to mention a good game as I did know ;D... Only I'm too tired to link it to the actual link of the game) ;D ;D
I concur. WLBSWHEAC had a great soundtrack. Mostly people just go after a game for its graphics. Those kind of games get more publicity I think.
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 09/01/2007 15:42:06
People who want to, but may not know how, should try harder to promote their games.
But.... if they don't know how, wouldn't their efforts be ineffectual? "Try Harder" doesn't fix the problem -people have to be taught better practices (or be able to find resources where they can learn for themselves).
Perhaps someone who considers themselves a game promoter (I'd prefer AGS Impressario, but whatever) should write a tutorial on how to promote a game. This should include:
-a list of websites/forums with marketing potential along with their target market.
- possibly a list of reviewers, bloggers and postaholics (i.e. people who will spread the word if they
like your game) along with their contact info/websites.
-instructions on how to pitch your game to these people, or post a pitch to the masses for the DIYer.
-perhaps links to information about basic marketing and advertising strategies.
Frankly I'm surprised that in the "offer your services" thread no one has offered to be a game promoter (or "agent," since we consider ourselves to be game authors). I think if this thread has taught us anything it's that promotion is as important to game dissemination as art, music, plot, writing or scripting.
That was well said, Baron.
I had an idea as to what Dave was explaining, and I'm sure, if no one else, Dave knows what he's talking about - his games are out there. All I could think of for promoting would be to visit different adventure game forums posting a link with some information in it... Doesn't this end up pissing people off? I mean, if done right there shouldn't be a problem, but without the correct knowledge (like Baron was saying) you could very well just end up being a nuisance. Some one to write a tutorial of somesort on game promotion is a great idea. Surely it wouldn't go to waste, I know I, for one, could use something like that for some help when the time comes.
Quote...or post a pitch to the masses for the DIYer.
What exactly is DIY? Are they some sort of e-zine that keeps track of adventure games? Reason for asking is, about a year ago I think it was, I googled
Leitor's Edge to find my GiP thread (needed the new title screen - recent computer crashed, long story) and I found an artical (Topic: Leitor's Edge Canned?) on the DIY website about adventure games that are now known as
Could Have Been Greats and the main topic was
LE. I was astonished that
LE made it to this site, let alone had it's own artical. Eventhough it was telling everyone that it was possibly a dead project gave me outstanding motivation to work on it again... with increased
gusto ;) I would like to know how it got popular enough to make it on that site. Possibly from these forums? I know I had a few fans awaiting it's release, but how'd DIY find out about it?
I guess it's possible for your game to promote itself, but yeah, I'd love to read a tutorial on how to do it right, and successfully.
--Snake
At last I have used an acronym that confounds the internet -the tables have turned!
....but seriously, I appologize for not typing it out. DIY = Do It Yourself where I'm from (people even say DIY instead of saying the whole thing, so that's my defence :) ) A website based around people building their own adventure games would very appropriately be named DIY for this reason.
Oh, and thanks for the post promotion Snake!
Quote from: BaRoN on Thu 11/01/2007 01:28:46
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 09/01/2007 15:42:06
People who want to, but may not know how, should try harder to promote their games.
But.... if they don't know how, wouldn't their efforts be ineffectual? "Try Harder" doesn't fix the problem -people have to be taught better practices (or be able to find resources where they can learn for themselves).
I don't consider myself to be a good game promoter (although I can promote myself and my music pretty good :P)... But my post does include a minimum of advice, regarding different threads in different forums, and making sure that you do follow these threads... Games databases (not only the underdog, but "contemporary ones" as well, like strategy informer, of acid games, or gamasutra even! Why not?), and every other place a game can be named. Heck if the game IS doing well find people to send news to Yahoo, or google, or CNN, or whatever. Maybe through someone who knows them, maybe your self! Somethings,
sometimes appear further than they really are.
If you look at the amount of publicity The Shivah has got from its Jewish angle, I'd suggest joining a religion with a large untapped userbase and making a game about it ;)
I don't think anyone's made Zoroaster Quest yet...
Having a "hook" definitely helps, whether that's "first game ever to star a hard-boiled Rabbi", "sequel to Fate of Atlantis" or "main character has big breasts".
If your game is of special interest to some community outside of homebrew adventure game fans, you have a much greater chance of reaching the mainstream. For instance, I am occasionally toying with an idea for a game set at a university. I could make it some fictional school, or I could just use my alma mater. If I ever get around to actually making it and I set it in my real college, I will be able to promote it to students there, to alumni, and even to kids thinking of applying (what better way to get an idea of what it's like going there?). Student newspapers provide a perfect venue for reviews of the game.
That's just an example, but the point is that some games are easy to "sell", while others (although they may be just as good) are more difficult.
If you've already made your game, I think the most important, basic thing you should do is to post a nice, professional message to "Completed games". Include screenshots! Mention what it is that makes your game great! Your game may be the best ever, but if the only thing a prospective player sees is "I've finished CJ Quest. Download from http...", he or she will probably never know.
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 11/01/2007 15:58:58
"main character has big breasts".
This is my favourite kind of hook. :=
Seriously though, the reason these games get the publicity is down to a combination of three things.
1. The creators have taken the time to generate their own publicity.
2. The adventure game community, en masse, has generated positive
word-of-mouth regarding the game.
3. The game is of a standard that elevates it above just "another freeware adventure".
When these elements come together...BINGO!
The wild card is "Personal Taste". People may just dislike your game.
Apparently, having a really long title can be a hook. It got WLBSWHEAC mentioned on GameSetWatch (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006/11/_what_linus_bruckman_sees_when_1.php), which is pretty cool, at least to me...
Innovation is also a hook, apparently, because Linus just got mentioned for the second time on GameSetWatch (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/01/vince_twelve_gives_us_the_ol_a.php). Though this time it was largely because of my promoting the game on a smaller blog. I'm just happy someone took notice!