Hi there,
I just kinda can't get it with the music that is used in AGS games.
I see that many people create music themselves, so that the game is created only by one person. What I want to ask is: do you use also some commercial music (I mean, not the big hits, but let's say a track from totally infamous band played 10 years ago)? Is it legal?
How many of you guys are making music yourself? And sounds? Do you make sounds yourself? How many of you make only music to others' games and how many of you let someone else make music or sounds to your game?
I just kind of can't imagine how this is done, I can't imagine that I would be creating music, or sounds for my game...
I use sound effects from Half Life(so YahTzee).. I used random music generators and my skill on guitar to create some tracks as well. But I'm not the guy who really owns music.
Quote from: Oliwerko on Sun 27/01/2008 20:33:10
Is it legal?
Well, no, not without their permission. Whether anyone actually cares or not is another matter...
Personally I try not to use commercial stuff. If you look carefully there are a few good sites, for example http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/ (http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/), or sites using the Creative Commons licence. I've also got a couple of royalty free sound effects and midi music tracks lying around on my hard drive from other game makers which are useful. I'm not really sure of any specific sites for sound effects, but I'm sure they exist.
Getting fellow AGSers to help you out is also a good idea. Frankly I like boosting my credits with contributions from others, and I don't have any musical skill (or programs) myself.
I think it's been mentioned before that some people asked for permission to use existing songs, and succeeded.
Quote from: auriond on Sun 27/01/2008 22:38:44
I think it's been mentioned before that some people asked for permission to use existing songs, and succeeded.
Yes, I've done that succesfully in the past. Many musicians don't mind, as long as you're not making money off your project.
Aside from that, there are numerous musics (mostly MIDIs) on the internet that are in the public domain, which means you can use them at will (note that BOTH the original music AND the performance must be PD for this to work).
And, you can ask people to help. If you have a good game, you can find people to help you with music.
Using things without asking for them is just poor form.
QuoteUsing things without asking for them is just poor form.
This is cause for debate!! I can totally understand that it may seem harsh to use someone elses music but to me it boils down to one of those great, its really just based on "emotion" arguments. Every game I make personally I start with placeholder music, things from CD's mostly, which I've either bought or been sent. As a developer I'm blatently going to try the music that stirs me most against my scenes, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to be any different. I could also understand a developer who was simply unable to come away from their favourite tune, too. That's music :P tis too grand sometimes. MrPensi who only just found AGS yesterday and made the greatest game using copyrighted music tomorrow is still a good developer in my eyes.
The legality of this may not be questionable but for now, but it's still passable. I use music in YouTube videos and stuff that isn't mine, and quite clearly it's against the rules. But these people and huge corporations aren't going to make a fuss over little me and you, yet, at least. Legally, it's illegal to use any copyrighted material in your own things, you either need original content, or you personally need to perform the music, for instance, Queen's Bo-Rap, you perform it & record it and legally you can use it.
We have to remember that for personal use, anything is fine, because how would anyone ever know? Sure it could still fall against the rules, but it's that thing of how far personal privacy allows these days (and slowly day by day it gets closer to being lost :/) Again no-one would touch you for it, if they did you'd probably make more money out of The Sun for it than they would out of you for doing it in the first place ;)
But because a lot of us want to distribute stuff over the net, many people here will either compose the music themselves or find someone else to do it. All I can say is don't be shy. There's a
lot of musicians here and it's one of those areas you're unlikely to be turned down on, ever, unless the composer is simply too busy. And when it's original, its yours to do with whatever you want.
Freeware games are almost exempt from any trouble. It's a matter of your conscience I guess. I could easily upload a game with my favourite music by Silvestri & probably never hear anything of it.
That also raises a good issue, which takes me back to what Radiant says. It may be poor form, but to who? Every so often we hear of an artist who get really pissed off with people using their music, or ban fans from using their photos on websites and stuff like that, but I'd say the majority of artists still, in some way, feel quite honoured. We are not a mallicious community out to make money using their material, and everyone here is sensible enough to use their own original material when they do want to make money. Plus that's one of the great things here -- you know people will help you :) You know it will be more possible than ever to GET original content. And with games you have a LOT to get!! So YAY. "Real" music is often a powerful inspiration, and, well, we're a community who need to gobble up good music for things we also like to make....
As a composer myself I've always had a hard time understanding what I think about other people using my music, but everytime I end up realising it's great. I don't expect many others would feel the same :p but for me appreciation is very motivational, and people who've effectively done stuff I haven't warranted with my music have still made me feel good. Naturally it's nicer and more professional to be asked, but it's just not always going to happen that way. A simple credit is enough to show your work has been appreciated. Yes, if someone just used my tunes and made no reference anywhere I'd be annoyed :P And perhaps if I was making money from it I'd see it differently, but wouldn't that just make me greedy? hehe. Still, when I do it, I credit them wherever possible. It's the best I can do. I'd love to email Silvestri and get something human back but I never would. I'd never even get his email address. The fact it's so difficult like that makes me understand why its just not always possible to know about everything thats going on with your own stuff.
So it might sound like I'm saying go break the law but I'm not :P I'd encourage you and anyone else here to strive to make some contacts and get all the original content you need yourself. I can't imagine myself ever creating graphics myself, which is why I'm a blagging bastard half the time ::) People will go out of their way to help you. You might even find some crazy bugger willing to record sound effects for you, I tried it once, but it was lame :P But there ARE a lot of AGS games with original sound effects & music, as well as a few royalty free and a few not, I'm sure ;)
Good luck!
I honestly don't worry about this stuff with freeware games but I can understand if it makes some people nervous. When you try selling someone else's work or passing it off as your own it becomes a problem, though.
Now, that gets me out of my illusion. I originally thought that almost no one from you use copyrighted music.
From your posts I assume the best way for me, as no composer or sound effect maker, it is best to catch someone else to work on it for my game.
Anyway, what software do you use for composing? How hard is it to learn to compose?
There's a lot of software you can use to compose; freeware and non-freeware. I prefer the freeware because a lot of the non-freeware stuff is a hassle to get- either they don't sell most of it in stores, or else it's really hard to find in stores, and I don't like buying stuff online. The freeware programs are very competent though, and there are many different ones. If you're looking to make more modern sounds (new-school R&B, hip-hop, trance, house, rave, techno, etc) then any loop or DJ program will do. However, it might be hard to find a free program that can do the same quality of synthesized sound that someone like Nikolas or Geoffkhan uses. If you're looking to do MIDI, then I suggest JazzWare. It's simple, free, and it can do the same amount of stuff that the purchased programs can.
Renoise is my current program of choice, though I have used various trackers in the past (SKALE, Mad, Buzz,Milky, and FT2 to name a few). The nice thing about tracker software is that you can create relatively decent music just by ear as long as you have a good set of samples to work from. The only game I've made where I didn't make the music myself was Dance 'Til You Drop, and that was because I really wanted to bring in specific pop culture songs (and didn't see a point in remaking them myself). I don't think many people will fault you for using a few well-known tunes in your game provided they fit the atmosphere and aren't just there because you were being lazy.
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 28/01/2008 00:54:34
Every game I make personally I start with placeholder music, things from CD's mostly, which I've either bought or been sent. As a developer I'm blatently going to try the music that stirs me most against my scenes, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to be any different.
Personal use is, of course, different. What I was talking about is releasing a game with somebody's music, without asking. For releasing a game, I agree that many composers would be honored, but that's not a reason not to ask them. It's just common politeness, and it's not like it's hard to ask somebody.
Well to answer the initial question (although it's been discussed before in this thread) it is illegal to use tracks from other people (without permission that is). End of story?
Who on earth will bother if you decide to put Britney spears (god fobid that is) on your game? surely not her, or her company. Unless your downloads reach millions, which don't seem to be happening with AGS games... After all, as mentioned, you're not making money so... who cares really?
Now, on something that mOds mentioned: About other people using your music. I'm honestly having a bit of a hard time... First of all the contract I do have exclusive rights to the music I do (not copyright though), which basically means I have promised not to use the music I make for the games for a number of years. Someone using it, immediately breaks my contract with my employer. Again it's not a big deal but...
In addition to that, and I know that this won't sound too good really, I try my best to build my portfolio and knock on "better" doors every time and every chance I get. Having suddently some of my music in a poor game, might mean a little poor light on my music. People might form the wrong impression. Of course this does not apply to big names, but for someone tiny trying to go a bit higher, maybe it means something.
I don't feel wronged or anything, but somehow I do get a tiny bit bothered by the lack of effort involved (not even an e-mail to the composer in question?). I mean to the games I've worked for, I've had relationships built and talk with the developers, who have helped me along the way, etc, etc. why should someone take it for free without even asking?
I try to record as many sound effects as I can myself. This includes pretty much everything that can be recorded in the house without breaking anything. Other sounds I get from sites that offer sound effects for free. I also use the various sounds I have collected for unreal tournament over the years.
As for music. I tried to compose things myself a few times but I got easily fustrated because I had this tune in my head and I couldn't get it to work in the program I was using.
So for a while now I'm using files from Modarchive.org. There is some nice music there. I always give gredit to the author but never emailed him/her. To be honest I find emailing kinda silly in this matter because if it's on that site it's already free for use.
Oh, thanks for that Modarchive link, there are som really nice pieces there!
Also thank you others for all your advices. I assume that using copyrighted music is also a bit lame, of course if it isn't obviously necessary to use a melody like that in your game. Maybe it takes away a lot of originality from your game, when you do not use original music.
Steel Drummer - how big is the difference between MIDI creation and tracker software using? From your post, I assume that it is harder to create songs using classical instruments or other old ones, and easier to make modern electronic/rap/pop music. Am I right?
ProgZmax - thanks for info, that one looks somewhat complicated! Did you buy it?
In a word, yes- it's easier to create more modern sounding electronic/rap/techno stuff than to do epic classical-esque pieces, simply because the electronic stuff is more musically simple.
MIDI software and high-quality track software are usually quite similar actually, although they have their differences.
With track programs, you can import sound samples to use; simply take a one note recording of... say, a trombone. Import that into the program, and you can use that sample not only for that single note, but the program automatically raises the pitch when you tell it to play higher notes. Of course, this can start sounding fake when you get the higher and lower pitches, but that's how those programs work. And then of course, you can download high quality samples off the internet (usually you have to pay for them, but they can be found for free sometimes).
Then there are programs I like to call "loop software", which can only be used for creating drum/bass loops, etc (which works really well if you're making something repetitive like hip-hop or techno). These programs can include software like eJay (which has many different items in its library such as Hip-Hop eJay, House eJay, etc), FruityLoops/FLStudio (which can also be used as a good piece of track software), and Acoustica's Mixcraft.
MIDI software is what I prefer to use for composing background music, because it doesn't involve all those samples, and you can create some beautiful music if you find the right sounds. With MIDI, it takes some degree of musical knowledge to create good sounding tunes, but people with less ability can learn how to do it.
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 29/01/2008 16:31:40
MIDI software is what I prefer to use for composing background music, because it doesn't involve all those samples, and you can create some beautiful music if you find the right sounds. With MIDI, it takes some degree of musical knowledge to create good sounding tunes, but people with less ability can learn how to do it.
Well, I am a musician myself, so notes are not a problem here. How is it with the music "database" or whatever you call that for MIDI software? With trackers there are samples, and with MIDI, there is what?
I have seen how approximately trackers work, how does a MIDI software work?
What are some good free MIDI programs to compose in?
Sorry for this lot of questions, but I am totally lost in this music thing, and I find it kinda offering to learn composing myself, but I have no clue where to start. It may be a nonsense, but who knows....
Erm... Anvil Studio (don't hate me).
Midi generally uses samples (my PC has Roland soundsamples for use in mini, your's probably does aswell). The main difference is that trackers store the samples internally (hence bigger) and arn't a standard as such.
Midi uses the soundsamples that came with your soundcard software.
The thing with midi is that it sounds different on every computer.
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 28/01/2008 00:54:34
Legally, it's illegal to use any copyrighted material in your own things, you either need original content, or you personally need to perform the music, for instance, Queen's Bo-Rap, you perform it & record it and legally you can use it.
This is new to me. Doesn't the composer also have a copyright on his work?
You can, say, use the melody of the latest Britney Spears-hit (if it has one), transcribe it and that's legal to use? Even if you were to sell that game?
Quote from: Twin Moon on Tue 29/01/2008 19:07:26
Midi uses the soundsamples that came with your soundcard software.
The thing with midi is that it sounds different on every computer.
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 28/01/2008 00:54:34
Legally, it's illegal to use any copyrighted material in your own things, you either need original content, or you personally need to perform the music, for instance, Queen's Bo-Rap, you perform it & record it and legally you can use it.
This is new to me. Doesn't the composer also have a copyright on his work?
You can, say, use the melody of the latest Britney Spears-hit (if it has one), transcribe it and that's legal to use? Even if you were to sell that game?
This bothered me as well, you know, that Taited Love thing....
Crazy - why to hate you?
Quote from: Oliwerko on Tue 29/01/2008 18:01:31
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 29/01/2008 16:31:40
MIDI software is what I prefer to use for composing background music, because it doesn't involve all those samples, and you can create some beautiful music if you find the right sounds. With MIDI, it takes some degree of musical knowledge to create good sounding tunes, but people with less ability can learn how to do it.
Well, I am a musician myself, so notes are not a problem here. How is it with the music "database" or whatever you call that for MIDI software? With trackers there are samples, and with MIDI, there is what?
I have seen how approximately trackers work, how does a MIDI software work?
What are some good free MIDI programs to compose in?
Sorry for this lot of questions, but I am totally lost in this music thing, and I find it kinda offering to learn composing myself, but I have no clue where to start. It may be a nonsense, but who knows....
What the last two guys said is true. Also, I'd like to add, that with sampler programs, you can get a wide range of sounds (as well as the ability to add more) and with MIDI, you can only get the default ones that come with the sound card.
I recommend The Jazz (http://www.jazzware.com/) if you're looking for free MIDI composing software.
Quote from: Oliwerko on Tue 29/01/2008 12:23:35
I assume that using copyrighted music is also a bit lame, of course if it isn't obviously necessary to use a melody like that in your game.
[snip]
Just a point about copyright that is often misunderstood (and note that I am not a lawyer) - if you produce an original piece of work (be it music, a novel, an article or anything else) you own the copyright automatically. There is no registration process to follow (unlike patenting an invention). So if someone composes some music for your game, it is copyrighted, so saying "using copyrighted material is lame" makes no sense, because
all music is copyrighted, unless the copyright has lapsed (usually so many years after the composer's death - at least, this is how it works for novels, which is why you can download the works of Shakespeare from the Internet for free).
Copyright means that people are restricted in how they can use that music unless they have been given explicit permission by the author. Of course, you have agreed with the composer that they are composing the music specifically to be used your game, which means they are giving you the right to use it. If they had written it for someone else or for themselves or to be released as a single and you took it and used it in your game without their permission, they could sue you for breach of copyright.
I do understand what you meant when you said "copyrighted music", though. You meant music made by a professional recording artist, but original music made by anyone else is copyrighted as well once it is in written form. Once again, I am not a lawyer.
Like you say, the best option all round for a clear conscience is to have some bespoke music made for your game. And the thing is, because the music is made especially for the game, the game will be better than it would have been with some music you acquired by more legally dubious means. So go for it - find a composer (there are plenty on this site) and ask them to compose some fresh, original, exciting music for your game!
Yes yes, you are absolutely right about that copyright.
It still might be a challenge to try composing myself....
QuoteProgZmax - thanks for info, that one looks somewhat complicated! Did you buy it?
A friend of mine, who just recently decided he wanted to take music theory, got it for me since it's what he's been using. Up until then I'd used SKALE and was not happy with the poor vst support. Renoise, however, has excellent vsti support which makes an incredible difference in fidelity and overall sound quality (depending on the quality of the vst's of course). It's not really that difficult to use compared to a sequencer, and you can basically just start it up and start pushing keys and making sounds ;).
Ha, I have some tunes on modarchive ^_^!
Well, I like that tracking software, it seems challenging, but not impossible...
Do you also make your own samples?
And how did you learn to track?
You should definitely try out some more robust programs aswell if you start to get involved with making music. Trackers are fine but they are limited in functionality. Also they can be more confusing to the first timer than simple sequencers. Try the trial version of FL Studio (http://www.flstudio.com/). It's one of the easiest sequencers there is.