Remakes. Adventure games made from non-adventure games.

[Dan_N]

Ok, i decided to start this topic so that the problems of copyright could be discussed.

The first problem would be remakes. If i were to remake, let's say Dune (which is a dream of mine, the original being quite lame) without asking anyone would i be hunted down like the dog that i am? I've seen other people do it, but did they make an agreement or payed someone?

The second order of bussines would be adventure games inspired from other, non-adventure games. Again, the problem of hunting down. But is it really possible to take, for example, the plot of DOOM (go to mars, shoot, go to the shores of hell, shoot, go to hell, shoot, fin) and shove it into the world of adventure games and then mutate it by changing the graphics while keeping the general feel?

Let's talk it over.

[Nikolas]

It's been discussed numerous times. Just to let you know.

About remaking a game. Other games have been hunted down (for example KQIX, which had to change name and various other things), others shut down, others keep going, and others released KQ 1,2 and now 3, wihtout major issues really. But can't be too sure.

It certinaly is not exactly legal, but depends on what you want to do, and how far you want to take it. A game for 100 people would not be a problem. A gam with huge traffic and 1000s of downloads could potentially face danger. Of being shut, not that someone will chase you to take all your money. What money?

The second part of taking an idea, just go ahead and take it. Take out the names (Doom for example) and there is no problem. Ideas are not copyrighted, they can be pattented (in science), so no worries there. Not to mention that how many games are virtually the same with minor differences? Think abuot it.

Problem solved!

[Dan_N]

So what you're saying is that i can keep the name, although i'll change it to Doom Experience, and i can even keep the plot and main ideeas and i won't be hunted down.

And i can even go as far as to remake Dune without a problem ('cause let's face it, who would play it).
But what if i change the name, plot (although staying true to the book) and graphics and keep the rest? Would that douce down the hungry blood-sucking publishers?

[Nikolas]

no, I'm saying that you can't keep the name, but you can keep the ideas.

About hunting you down: Are you going to do a commercial game? Cause if so, then they will hunt you down, and so would I. If you are just doing a game for fun, let's face it (as you say...) nobody will really get hurt. But on the other hand want to risk the 0.1% to loose eveyrthing a couple of weeks before release because someone told you to stop? I woulnd't want that to happen to me.

Look unless your game is a really big deal, and not all games in AGS are that big, there is no chance that any piblisher will waste even a second in his life to find you and e-mail you, espeacially if there are no money involved.

[Dan_N]

I get the copyright part, but answer me this (anybody):
Is it ethical, moral, or even descent to remake games or to import ideeas from those games? Why and why not?

My opinion is that gamers like it 'cause it brings a new feel to that game (especially if it's old). Critics don't like it, because it's practically the same. And God knows publishers hate it!

Also, what do you think of amateur sequels made aftyer professional games?

[m0ds]

Is it ethical, moral, or even descent to remake games or to import ideeas from those games? Why and why not?

Tough one. I definitely think its fine to import ideas from other games. If that didn't happen, we wouldn't see half the games in the shops these days. Those that make todays games have played previous games and seeing what has been done in them, what ideas have been used have all been fused together to help the developer "create" a new world. It's hard to explain but in terms of the media its like this. Take Public Enemy, Godfather and Pulp Fiction. Without the first, the other two would have probably been completely different. Pulp Fiction wasn't necessarily ripping off the other two, but its creators (in this case QT) had obviously "seen" the other two films and made comparissons and "built on" the gangster genre in his own movie.

Therefore computer games NEED to grab ideas from other games to make them appeal, work efficiently and entertain the players. But again, the ideas wouldn't be directly ripped off, (though we do often see games use specific functions of a previous game) they would simply be built on. And I think this is necessary. Our project, FoY - wouldn't work if we had completely ignored its predecessors, FoA and TLC.

As for ethical - I find that hard to answer, because in some ways I think it is, and some ways it isn't. To some it could be a complement that you've remade it, but to most, and to the law, it probably isn't. I wouldn't want people sprucing up my music, for example, because I'd prefer they and everyone else just enjoyed the original piece that I made.

Also, what do you think of amateur sequels made aftyer professional games?

With the right ideas I think they can be great. All these "2.5" sequels and even ours, FoY - are perfect examples of how people can create games just as good as the original professional ones, because nowadays we have the time, the talent and the resources to do so.

[Dan_N]

mOds, i agree that game creators and designers need inspiration, why i myself am truly inspired by Yahtzee "Days", but i left it at that and didn't cross the line to rip-off. I hope some of you will agree that there is a fine line between inspiration and rip-off.
INSPIRATION is GOOD, because it can stimulate the mind, RIP-OFF is BAD, because it kills INSPIRATION. That's what i'm talking about.
I also feel that it is normal to include in one little readme, at least as a tid-bit, that the creator was inspired from that source and that source.

As for amateur sequels, i guess what i'm getting at is, does it give you the same feeling? i don't know, i think that the amateur sequel doesn't quite give the feeling of the professional made original. And i'll give you an example: Indiana Jones. I playerd Fate of Atlantis and it was great and left me gagging for more! Then I played Fountain of Youth and it just killed it. I think tat is partly because i expect more from a sequel then from the original. Sure i'd like to see Indiana tackle more Nazis and hear more jokes about the family dog, but i'd also like to see him do new tricks.

This is subjective so that's why I want to hear YOUR opinion.

[m0ds]

You have to remember FoA is a full game and at this stage FoY is just a demo. And even then it's a demo designed to give the team a taste of what we can do, not the general public like yourself.

But fair enough to your comments

[Dan_N]

Ok, mOds, fine, it's a DEMO (I hate that word), but why not make it a full game?
I know it's hard and takes time (and lot's of it), especially if it is to bring something new...
But, for heaven's sake, let there be a sequel! (not a rip-off - sure, the story might be different, but if the gameplay's the same, then it's a rip-off in my book)

[HillBilly]

Ok, mOds, fine, it's a DEMO (I hate that word), but why not make it a full game?

If I'm not mistaken it's under progress.

But, for heaven's sake, let there be a sequel! (not a rip-off - sure, the story might be different, but if the gameplay's the same, then it's a rip-off in my book)

I don't agree. I think they're trying to recreate the feeling from the original games, and a total change of gameplay could kill that.

[m0ds]

I think they're trying to recreate the feeling from the original games, and a total change of gameplay could kill that.

Thanks HillBilly, I agree! Sure, if we wanted to kill the gameplay we all used to love we'd be making LucasArt's latest Indy game, Dan! :p This is a nostalga thing, and so far it's paying off. But don't worry, there are going to be changes to what you saw in FoA, which is where the real inspiration starts taking place. Relating to Indiana Jones though, for a bona-fide genuine "same style" sequel (to FoA), you should check out the Fate of Atlantis II project (amberfisharts.com) I wanted to make an FoA sequel originally - so I agree with you, making sequels are cool, but on this occasion someone beat me to it!

Anyway, enough about FoY, back to your topic.

[Radiant]

no, I'm saying that you can't keep the name, but you can keep the ideas.

But be careful with statements like that. While it's true that nobody can blame you for using an idea (fighting in hell, pirates, a wizard school, whatever), it is a violation of copyright if you follow another's plot or setting too closely. It is a common misconception to think that you can evade copyright law by taking an existing story and simply changing the names around. That won't do.

But then, if you go freeware it's quite possible to end up not noticed by a corporation's lawyers (for instance, there's a Doom clone using Rogue mechanics).

[Dan_N]

Yes, indeed i know about the Doom Roguelike, i even downloaded it, but the damn thing needs 800x600 graphics and my monitor doesn't support it. but that's another story.

back to the topic, i didn't intend to nor will i ever intend to make a comercial game with my own two hands and one brain. and i hope that others will agree that you just a get a bigger kick out of free distribution and gratuity.

about fan-made remakes and sequels, what if i changed the name (from "Dune" to "Sands of Arrakis") change gameplay (from adventure to platform shooter/adventure) the plot, and some elements from Dune 2 (Death Hand missile, Saboteurs, Quads, Trikes, Tanks etc.) but keep the main characters (Atreides Family, Harkonnen House, Ordos House, the Emperor and his Sardaukar, the Fremen etc.), although not make them the main characters, but make my own main characters, thus altering the story, 'cause what i hated about the original adventure game and even the movies was that it didn't give me the feeling of war, it was just backstabbing left, walking right, shouting "bitch" up, talking stuff down, it killed the whole dune experience and didn't do justice to the books. that's why i fell it's about time for a well-made sequel (although i don't plan it anytime soon and i need help with music)... anyway, i'm really steering of course, so what if change most of it, but keep some original elements from Dune, Dune 2 and Frank Herbert's books?
And if the points where inspiration from other, well-known sources are written down in a readme, would that kill of hunting for a bit?

[Radiant]

Yes, indeed i know about the Doom Roguelike, i even downloaded it, but the damn thing needs 800x600 graphics and my monitor doesn't support it. but that's another story.

Huh? I'm pretty sure it runs in textmode, like most roguelikes.

about fan-made remakes and sequels, what if i changed the name (from "Dune" to "Sands of Arrakis")

I doubt that Virgin (or was it Interplay) would do anything about it, considering that their license likely expired and/or didn't cover platform shooters. However, the one that might object (or might not) is Frank Herbert himself. It depends really if the rights to his books are held by an individual or a corporation.

[Dan_N]

Huh? I'm pretty sure it runs in textmode, like most roguelikes.

Yes, it runs in text-mode, but still the bloody thing makes weird lines appear on my monitor, and in the readme it states in the system requirements 800x600. Sucks.

I doubt that Virgin (or was it Interplay) would do anything about it, considering that their license likely expired and/or didn't cover platform shooters. However, the one that might object (or might not) is Frank Herbert himself. It depends really if the rights to his books are held by an individual or a corporation.

It was Virgin. And damn! Well, i'm pretty sure Frank Herbert died, so i don't really know who owns the rights now, but i know the books are still alive and kicking, actually the whole saga was re-edited and re-published in 2005 in my country.
And i think i can't make that game (Sands of Arrakis) 'cause in the book it says: Any reproduction, total or partial, of this book, without the written aproval of the editor, is strictly forbidden and is punished in agreement with the Author's Rights Law. this has been a translation from Romanian to English and it is not perfect. The Author's Rights Law ("Legea Dreptului de Autor", for whom can tranlate better) reffers to copyright laws i guess.

But come on... Who would come after an amateur game maker?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Why not take some of the ideas you like about Dune and incorporate them into a NEW product, where no one can say yeah or nay about copyrights and legality? 

Remake craze:  stop please.

[GarageGothic]

Why not take some of the ideas you like about Dune and incorporate them into a NEW product, where no one can say yeah or nay about copyrights and legality? 

You mean like George Lucas did?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

He's a multi-billionaire, so it seems to have worked.

[EagerMind]

Is it ethical, moral, or even descent to remake games or to import ideeas from those games?

I think if depends on your intent. I don't see anything wrong with "fan" games, stories, art, etc. Now if you're ripping off someone to try and make money, that's a different story. Unfortunately, "the law is blind," as they say. If you're copying something, it doesn't matter what your intent is, it's "illegal." Of course, it's up to individual companies how much energy they put into pursuing copyright violations. Some companies support and embrace their fan communities, others are fairly strict about what people can and can't do with their material.

Look unless your game is a really big deal, and not all games in AGS are that big, there is no chance that any piblisher will waste even a second in his life to find you and e-mail you, espeacially if there are no money involved.

I wouldn't be so sure about this either. Look at Lucasfan ("Maniac Mansion" remake, "Futher Adventures of Zak McKracken"), who was shutdown, as well as a rather harmless AGS fan game using Garfield. I believe one of the KQ remakes was also shutdown (although I think they then went and got permission from the copyright holder). It's unlikely that you'd get shutdown, but definitely not impossible.

While it's true that nobody can blame you for using an idea (fighting in hell, pirates, a wizard school, whatever), it is a violation of copyright if you follow another's plot or setting too closely.

This is important! Copyright doesn't just apply to names, but also to "intellectual property." What does this mean? Take Dune for instance. I'm no lawyer, but effectively it means that the whole "world" (characters, places, settings) is copyrighted. Even if you made completely new characters and a completely new plot, you could be violating copyright if you set it on the same planet (um ... Barsoom? I've never actually read the books). How much do you need to change to prevent violating the copyright? Well, this is where the lawyers come in. There's a lot of subtleties to copyright law which are beyond all of us (unless there's a lawyer in the forums!)

Personally, I'd play it safe. I wouldn't want to put a lot of time and effort into a project just to have some overpaid lawyer tell me I had to get rid of it. I'd recommend either contacting the owner of the copyright or just stay away from using someone else's setting. I don't think contacting the copyright owner would actually be that difficult - just get their address and mail them a letter. If you explain what you're trying to do, I think most times they'd be OK with it (just hang on to their response letter!).

Or, take your story and try to distill it down to the bare concept. Hitchcock once talked about the "MacGuffin" in his stories - that "thing" which motivates the characters. Although it seems really important, it's not. The story is really about the characters, and how they react to events and change over the course of the story. Once you've decided on what's going to happen to them, it doesn't really matter what the "cause" is. Again, take Dune. What's your story? "Desert people on the planet Blah must destroy the giant sandworms or face extinction." Okay, what's the core concept here? "Desert survival (a bad situation) with something attacking them (even worse)." So, what should that "something" be? Other people? Ghosts? Aliens? Notice, you don't even have to set this on a foreign planet! Yet, your idea was "inspired" by Dune, and you're not violating copyright in any way!

Well, I guess I started to ramble. Maybe my example wasn't so great, but hopefully you get my point ....

[Evil]

Remakes of non-adventure games into adventure games can be hard. Most games already have the typical adventure puzzles. Find the key, find the button, distract the bad guy, etc.

Look at shooter games. Move from one end of a building to another to reach a location, but there are obstacles along the way, such as doors and gaps, that you need to find some sort of lever to proceed. Sure it'd make a fun adventure game. But when you take away the guns and the violence you have a less popular game.

Examples: Wolfenstein would make a terrible adventure game. Something like FarCry might work. Dune is questionable in my opinion, but what made these games fun are their key elements, and a lot of those elements don't transfer well to other genres.